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Mendota Heights
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« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2013, 01:32:54 PM »

1700 years?  What unlikely story has permeated Western society for 1700 years?
Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire in the late 300's, before that Christianity did not influence Western life that much. I can not list all of the unlikely stories here, but can you please tell me how koala bears made it from mount Ararat to Australia? Did they walk or swim?
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 01:35:34 PM by Swedish Frog » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2013, 02:32:50 PM »

1700 years?  What unlikely story has permeated Western society for 1700 years?
Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire in the late 300's, before that Christianity did not influence Western life that much. I can not list all of the unlikely stories here, but can you please tell me how koala bears made it from mount Ararat to Australia? Did they walk or swim?

It did have influence but a different kind and it took on a different shape. Before Constantine established Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire, Christianity was in the words of Christian theologian Hans KŸng a "persecuted church" because they took the gospels seriously and applied them honestly - meaning, in a way that would be assumed today by the religious right to be radically left-wing. Constantine took over the religion and established it, according to KŸng as the "persecuting church," making it the religion for the rich and the powerful, no longer concerned primarily with helping the poor and suffering as it was before. And it has, primarily, been that way since in the more powerful countries.
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« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2013, 02:53:14 PM »

When it comes to pre-Roman Christianity, there was no "it" so much as a "them." Remember that in those years there were many (relatively different) writings and practices held sacred by different sects that considered themselves Christian. It's with Constantine, councils such as the Council of Nicaea, and the consequent structure that you get a Christianity.
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« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2013, 03:32:37 PM »

When it comes to pre-Roman Christianity, there was no "it" so much as a "them." Remember that in those years there were many (relatively different) writings and practices held sacred by different sects that considered themselves Christian. It's with Constantine, councils such as the Council of Nicaea, and the consequent structure that you get a Christianity.

Good point.
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« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2013, 04:06:15 PM »

["The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."

 A literal definition such as this is more less the agnostic equivalent of Christian fundamentalism.

 Let's try it like this: There is a life force which which humanity emanates. In this world it is unknowable. It does not exclude science or rationalism. We call it God. Once long ago, a guy called Jesus was in touch with said "force" as a living presence within himself that was beyond what any other human had ever known. Because of his gift, Jesus preached the Word and some followed. Ultimately, he was persecuted by the State for what he said, and as result took the hit for all humanity. Several thousand years later, he still has many followers all over the world.

 Is this technically Christianity? I don't know, but it sounds better than smug smirks about a magic zombie Jew. Things that stand the test of time usually entail some substance.
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« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2013, 04:23:51 PM »

Things that stand the test of time usually entail some substance.

Sort of. I mean, I agree with you that the zombie Jesus is smug and sillly. But there are plenty of things of substance that have not stood the test of time. The reason why Christianity has stood the test of time has little to do with its substance - it has to do with the fact that it was the central religion of colonial Europe which also happened to be the most powerful area of the world. It survived in a way that other ideas and belief systems didn't because of its ongoing association with authority and power. Had Constantine not made Christianity the official religion the Roman Empire, it is all but entirely unlikely we would see Christianity in the form that it takes today with the kind of widespread support it has. And as Luther suggests above, Christianity has very little to do with Jesus. Our contemporary understanding of Christianity results from events that occurred several hundred years after the events described in The New Testament, as Constantine and the Empire fundamentally re-conceived Christianity and what it meant to those who might call themselves Christian. Much of what he did holds today and continues to inform our understanding of what Christianity is.
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« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2013, 09:53:54 AM »

Things that stand the test of time usually entail some substance.
Christianity has not stood the test of time really. Its passages relating to cosmology, abiogenesis, biology, historical facts and so on are flawed at best and downright wrong in many cases.

There is a life force which which humanity emanates. In this world it is unknowable.
How can you claim something exists if it is unknowable? Even if it exists you would not know about it because it is unknowable.
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« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2013, 10:37:39 AM »

Things that stand the test of time usually entail some substance.
Christianity has not stood the test of time really. Its passages relating to cosmology, abiogenesis, biology, historical facts and so on are flawed at best and downright wrong in many cases.

There is a life force which which humanity emanates. In this world it is unknowable.
How can you claim something exists if it is unknowable? Even if it exists you would not know about it because it is unknowable.
It's something called "Faith". Apparently, you nor I possess much of it, but it is what makes most, if not all religions tick. Now, please answer the questions asked of you regarding Islam. I'd love to hear what you have to say about it.
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« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2013, 11:46:21 AM »


It's something called "Faith". Apparently, you nor I possess much of it, but it is what makes most, if not all religions tick. Now, please answer the questions asked of you regarding Islam. I'd love to hear what you have to say about it.

That's the religon you can't make fun of on South Park or extremists will try to kill you.
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« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2013, 11:58:19 AM »


It's something called "Faith". Apparently, you nor I possess much of it, but it is what makes most, if not all religions tick. Now, please answer the questions asked of you regarding Islam. I'd love to hear what you have to say about it.

That's the religon you can't make fun of on South Park or extremists will try to kill you.
Indeed! Smiley I figured that's why he was avoiding an answer. Amazing how people will continue to mock when there won't be any reprisals to worry about.
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« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2013, 02:11:00 PM »


It's something called "Faith". Apparently, you nor I possess much of it, but it is what makes most, if not all religions tick. Now, please answer the questions asked of you regarding Islam. I'd love to hear what you have to say about it.

That's the religon you can't make fun of on South Park or extremists will try to kill you.
Indeed! Smiley I figured that's why he was avoiding an answer. Amazing how people will continue to mock when there won't be any reprisals to worry about.
That is not true at all. The reason why I did not answer him was because I did not really understand what type of answer he wanted (his question was not defined in any good way and I did not see how Islam is relevant in a discussion about the core concept of Christianity). If he wants to know things about Islam then why not just google them? I am pretty sure all the questions he has on Islam can be answered without me telling him the answer.

I am certainly not afraid of speaking my mind here or in real life. I do that all the time and since I am a libertarian, Austrian and anti-Cultural Marxist (all reality based common sense ideologies) 99 % of the people I talk to disagree with me and they often become hostile. I have no problem criticizing Islam - a religion I do not like one bit. It is based on an iron age patriarchal clan oriented social and judicial structure where the most important thing is the family, not nations, not non-family members, not individuals and certainly not women.

The view on sexuality found in Islamic countries is the opposite of what I advocate and find human. If you want me to give you one single reason why Islamic countries look and (dys)function the way they do it is because of their to us different view on sexuality and what it means to have sex (in a hierarchical sense). If you are raped you have lost your honor and your family's honor. If you rape you have shown your above that person's family in the society. That is why raped women are stoned to death or buried alive, because they have dishonored their family.

Since the family is the most important unit in Islamic countries male family members have to make sure men of other families are not allowed to have children with said family's women. Women therefor have to wear things like niqab and burqa to prevent male non-family members from being attracted to them and to prevent consensual sex and rape. That is the reason why women in many cases are not allowed to leave the home without the company of a male family member, drive a car, choose her own husband or even boyfriend. Since it is important to keep the family intact cousin marriage is common and the result is a population more prone to genetic disorders. In order to maintain this anti-human social structure much submission, violence, coercion and cruel punishments are needed.

Here is a good example of Islamic mindset (from 2002):

"Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers." (Source:  BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1874471.stm).

This is a short answer and the topic could be expanded upon further.
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« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2013, 03:06:12 PM »

All three Abrahamic religions are irremediably f***ed.
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« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2013, 03:45:34 PM »

If you want me to give you one single reason why Islamic countries look and (dys)function the way they do it is because of their to us different view on sexuality and what it means to have sex (in a hierarchical sense).

I disagree. Indonesia has the world's largest Islamic population and they hardly "dysfunction" in the way that you describe. The reason is because they have had the overwhelming support of the Western world - in particular in their carrying out some of the worst atrocities of the second half of the twentieth century. They have not had their population repeatedly terrorized by outsiders because they have been, for the most part, friendly to Western business interests.  Indonesia doesn't have the same problems as some other Islamic countries because we haven't actively worked to destroy it. Rather, because they were destroying, in fact carrying out a near genocide of a people we didn't like, we supported them.
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« Reply #38 on: March 14, 2013, 04:10:04 PM »

It's my opinion to talk about what a religion inherently is (be it good or bad) is impossible because they are constantly changing based on their context of time, place, and situation. I've read recently--and I am way out of my league on this, by the way, so forgive me--that race is increasingly discounted among scientists as being a legitimate categorization, that there are more differences within any superficial categorization of race than there are between them. (I think the idea was that historical definition of race was mostly based on skin color and presumably nationality / location. Again, out of my league so I can't back any of this up without digging for the articles.) That concept rings true to me about religion. Thus we end up with "Christianity," which, depending on where you live and your particular bent, may seem virtually unrecognizable to someone else going by the same name.
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« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2013, 04:21:19 PM »

Also, Libertarianism is reality based? If that's the case, how come I've never heard anyone be able to explain how it works without using metaphor, similie or examples of economic exchange that have never occurred in the history of humanity?
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« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2013, 04:33:42 PM »

It's my opinion to talk about what a religion inherently is (be it good or bad) is impossible because they are constantly changing based on their context of time, place, and situation. I've read recently--and I am way out of my league on this, by the way, so forgive me--that race is increasingly discounted among scientists as being a legitimate categorization, that there are more differences within any superficial categorization of race than there are between them. (I think the idea was that historical definition of race was mostly based on skin color and presumably nationality / location. Again, out of my league so I can't back any of this up without digging for the articles.) That concept rings true to me about religion. Thus we end up with "Christianity," which, depending on where you live and your particular bent, may seem virtually unrecognizable to someone else going by the same name.

Well, Christianity is inherently, at it's core, the belief that the son of god died for our sins (at least it has been this way for 100s of years). Now, there are a billion ways to worship this man, many different ways to baptize, many different ways to preach - so trying to narrow all these down to one specific label is impossible. But the core belief is easily spotted in any different sect of Christianity.

Regardless, from my perspective, the core belief makes no sense at all...I can't believe people still buy into it. Then again, I was a church goer for 15 some years, attended countless youth rallys, mission trips, outreach programs, etc, and I believed with all my heart....until I actually read the bible from cover to cover.
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« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2013, 04:37:57 PM »

If you want me to give you one single reason why Islamic countries look and (dys)function the way they do it is because of their to us different view on sexuality and what it means to have sex (in a hierarchical sense).

I disagree. Indonesia has the world's largest Islamic population and they hardly "dysfunction" in the way that you describe. The reason is because they have had the overwhelming support of the Western world - in particular in their carrying out some of the worst atrocities of the second half of the twentieth century. They have not had their population repeatedly terrorized by outsiders because they have been, for the most part, friendly to Western business interests.  Indonesia doesn't have the same problems as some other Islamic countries because we haven't actively worked to destroy it. Rather, because they were destroying, in fact carrying out a near genocide of a people we didn't like, we supported them.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the way that you use the word "they"; it seems to equate the general population of Indonesia with the Suharto regime, even though it was ultimately the democratically elected government that ended the occupation of East Timor, much to the Indonesian military's chagrin.
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« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2013, 04:39:57 PM »

It's my opinion to talk about what a religion inherently is (be it good or bad) is impossible because they are constantly changing based on their context of time, place, and situation. I've read recently--and I am way out of my league on this, by the way, so forgive me--that race is increasingly discounted among scientists as being a legitimate categorization, that there are more differences within any superficial categorization of race than there are between them. (I think the idea was that historical definition of race was mostly based on skin color and presumably nationality / location. Again, out of my league so I can't back any of this up without digging for the articles.) That concept rings true to me about religion. Thus we end up with "Christianity," which, depending on where you live and your particular bent, may seem virtually unrecognizable to someone else going by the same name.

Well, Christianity is inherently, at it's core, the belief that the son of god died for our sins (at least it has been this way for 100s of years). Now, there are a billion ways to worship this man, many different ways to baptize, many different ways to preach - so trying to narrow all these down to one specific label is impossible. But the core belief is easily spotted in any different sect of Christianity.

Regardless, from my perspective, the core belief makes no sense at all...I can't believe people still buy into it. Then again, I was a church goer for 15 some years, attended countless youth rallys, mission trips, outreach programs, etc, and I believed with all my heart....until I actually read the bible from cover to cover.

I was raised in a conservative Christian family, myself.* (See: my name.) But I'd actually take umbrage with your first statement, as there are nominally Christian denominations that do not preach a literal Jesus as having been necessary even as a historical figure, instead focusing on the symbolism of redemption. Some Christian denominations do not believe in hell, which of course does away with the need for a heaven and the forgiveness of sins. These are some relatively modern variants. To go the opposite direction, there was tremendous debate in the first few centuries as to who Jesus was, whether he was a) God, b) the only son of God, c) a son of God, d) a healer and saint, e) you get my point. Basic concepts such as his nature, the death and resurrection, heaven and hell, etc. were debated up until what became the Catholic church achieved a monopoly on the topic.

So basically I agree that we all have some kind of idea as to what constitutes Christianity (or any other religion), but you can almost always find something that contradicts it.

*I probably ought to add that I'm an atheist now (and really since my late teens, so for the past 15-20 years), though one who finds religion really interesting.
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« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2013, 04:59:57 PM »

If you want me to give you one single reason why Islamic countries look and (dys)function the way they do it is because of their to us different view on sexuality and what it means to have sex (in a hierarchical sense).

I disagree. Indonesia has the world's largest Islamic population and they hardly "dysfunction" in the way that you describe. The reason is because they have had the overwhelming support of the Western world - in particular in their carrying out some of the worst atrocities of the second half of the twentieth century. They have not had their population repeatedly terrorized by outsiders because they have been, for the most part, friendly to Western business interests.  Indonesia doesn't have the same problems as some other Islamic countries because we haven't actively worked to destroy it. Rather, because they were destroying, in fact carrying out a near genocide of a people we didn't like, we supported them.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the way that you use the word "they"; it seems to equate the general population of Indonesia with the Suharto regime, even though it was ultimately the democratically elected government that ended the occupation of East Timor, much to the Indonesian military's chagrin.

I entirely agree. I apologize if my choice of words indicated otherwise, or placed blame where it shouldn't have been placed. The fact is that there was certainly a schism between Suharto and popular opinion in Indonesia, which is why he took power in the 1960s with a bloodbath that sent hundreds of thousands of people to their deaths.
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« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2013, 06:37:51 PM »

It's my opinion to talk about what a religion inherently is (be it good or bad) is impossible because they are constantly changing based on their context of time, place, and situation. I've read recently--and I am way out of my league on this, by the way, so forgive me--that race is increasingly discounted among scientists as being a legitimate categorization, that there are more differences within any superficial categorization of race than there are between them. (I think the idea was that historical definition of race was mostly based on skin color and presumably nationality / location. Again, out of my league so I can't back any of this up without digging for the articles.) That concept rings true to me about religion. Thus we end up with "Christianity," which, depending on where you live and your particular bent, may seem virtually unrecognizable to someone else going by the same name.

Well, Christianity is inherently, at it's core, the belief that the son of god died for our sins (at least it has been this way for 100s of years). Now, there are a billion ways to worship this man, many different ways to baptize, many different ways to preach - so trying to narrow all these down to one specific label is impossible. But the core belief is easily spotted in any different sect of Christianity.

Regardless, from my perspective, the core belief makes no sense at all...I can't believe people still buy into it. Then again, I was a church goer for 15 some years, attended countless youth rallys, mission trips, outreach programs, etc, and I believed with all my heart....until I actually read the bible from cover to cover.

I was raised in a conservative Christian family, myself.* (See: my name.) But I'd actually take umbrage with your first statement, as there are nominally Christian denominations that do not preach a literal Jesus as having been necessary even as a historical figure, instead focusing on the symbolism of redemption. Some Christian denominations do not believe in hell, which of course does away with the need for a heaven and the forgiveness of sins. These are some relatively modern variants. To go the opposite direction, there was tremendous debate in the first few centuries as to who Jesus was, whether he was a) God, b) the only son of God, c) a son of God, d) a healer and saint, e) you get my point. Basic concepts such as his nature, the death and resurrection, heaven and hell, etc. were debated up until what became the Catholic church achieved a monopoly on the topic.

So basically I agree that we all have some kind of idea as to what constitutes Christianity (or any other religion), but you can almost always find something that contradicts it.

*I probably ought to add that I'm an atheist now (and really since my late teens, so for the past 15-20 years), though one who finds religion really interesting.

All very true. I guess the baptist/methodist teachings of my youth are far too engrained in my mind haha.
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« Reply #45 on: March 15, 2013, 11:23:22 AM »

All three Abrahamic religions are irremediably f***ed.

All religions are irremediably f***ed in my eyes, but yes Islamic ones take the biscuit.
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« Reply #46 on: March 15, 2013, 12:02:27 PM »

All three Abrahamic religions are irremediably f***ed.

All religions are irremediably f***ed in my eyes, but yes Islamic ones take the biscuit.

As TRBB suggests though, Abrahamic religions include Islam along with Christianity and Judaism.
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« Reply #47 on: March 15, 2013, 12:21:46 PM »

Actually I'd put Judasim at the top simply because it's custom to have part of your dick chopped off, no thanks!
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« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2013, 11:34:06 PM »

this conversation serves NO PURPOSE

I mean I know it's the sandbox but come one people we don't need to turn it into the catbox
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« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2013, 12:48:24 AM »

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