at what point did Brian start to seem "off"?

[KittyKat]

If we didn't discuss personal matters that are really only business of family and friends, this board could blow away like a tumbleweed. Crickets would chirp. It's a major issue among Beach Boys fans and always has been. No one would care as much if Brian were "normal." It would be like discussing Syd Barrett and only wanting to discuss the chords to "See Emily Play," lest his family and the remaining members of Pink Floyd get offended.

[dwtherealbb]

Indeed, Mike's post is one of the better things I've ever read on this board. Although, I would say that Brian's onstage behavior I think may have been worse than implied. Take this clip from Maryland 1977 for example. Watch what Brian does after Feel Flows. While Carl introduces Dennis(who then introduces the next song), Brian is completely zoned out, singing and playing bass to whatever is playing in his head. It's like he forgot that he and his band are in front of thousands of people, and supposed to be playing a concert. I think that he might have been in far worse shape at the Knebworth than what the dvd and cd would have you believe. He pretty much ruined the first minute or so of In My Room by loudly banging out a fast boogie woogie riff that had absolutely nothing to do with the song. I'm not sure if it's on the officially released version, but on the bootleg audio Brian can also be heard playing Rhapsody in Blue right as the band goes into California Girls.

another clip from that concert is where they take a break between songs and starting at 4:29, Brian starts to do some bizarre warm-up routine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXwNfIDtRJs

[Mike's Beard]

They sound absolutely terrible here.

[Dave in KC]

Wow, that's the only year since 1968 I didn't see the group live. Thankfully.

But looking back, I totally understand.

 

[MBE]

Agreed, facial tics such as talking out of one side of your mouth can be easily ascribed to being deaf in one ear, and having the shakes can be ascribed to tardive diskensia, which is a result of being overdosed with pharmaceutical drugs - the 80s for Brian.


We are trying to diagnose the man when we are a bunch of Internet psychiatricists who happen to like our patients music. This discussion is pointless.

Agreed 100%

p.s. I did notice Mike's contribution, and chronology and appreciate his work.  But, commentary and speculation about someone's health is generally a private matter, and better left for his family and health providers. 

I do try to be sensitive in that I don't make anything public that I think would hurt anyone. I just wanted people to realize that the changes started early and were very slow in manifesting themselves.

You know what would be awesome?? The publication of your book, Mike! Pleeeeeeeeeeeease.

Sorry to take the thread off-topic, but we NEED your book. What's goin' on?

Hey glad to see the continued interest. I mentioned in another thread that I am going to be updating it as it finishes right before the release of TSS box. I need to add 2012 and the Grammy win and then I can work on submitting it. The last 14 months have been taken up with my first solo book to be issued, Elvis Music FAQ

[MBE]

Marilyn once put it to me like this. Brian always had good days and bad days but the bad gradually became more frequent. 
Here are the changes over the years I perceived or have been told about.
1963-He already wants off the road and is putting on weight. Brian said in a 1964 interview that he had a health food diet in high school but found it harder to maintain on the road. His bad eatting habits stuck with him from then on.
1964-We have panic attacks on the Europe tour, and the big breakdown at the end of the year.
1965-Brian was still pretty active, and would still make the effort to go on TV or hometown gigs. It was reported later that he had a few panic attacks, but not quite breakdowns.
1966-The Pet Sounds sessions seem very tight, but by the end of the year he seems to not be as certain. He was becoming a perfectionist to the point where he would tinker too much on things. Not going on the road much at all, but still concerned enough with the live act to rehearse them hard on Good Vibrations
1967-This wasn't the big meltdown it has been made out to be. Yes his actions were odd at times, yes he seems to have lost some of his drive but he seems to have made a conscious decision to not be as competitive. He also seems to have rediscovered the joy of working with the guys. Consider this, in the 12 months after Smile (June 1967-68)  he headed three unconventional but great albums., He also played Hawaii, worked at saving it for a faux-live  studio project, and recorded roughly another LP worth of outtakes.
1968-The year began well, but by the middle of the year he seemed to be burning out for real. He went to an institution briefly, and some feel he was different when he came out. Others told me they didn't see a real difference yet. He did seem to be excited about being a dad initially, but Marilyn told Stephen Gaines that it was after they had the children that she began to get concerned. One thing should be made clear, he may not have been taking the helm like before, but he was still active in the studio the last six months of 1968 with and without The Beach Boys. He also was still making public appearances if not doing any shows. Yellow Submarine premiere, a concert where he signed autographs with the others in the entrances etc. First time he missed sessions though.
1969-Brian seems to have bounced back to a certain point. He was working a lot during this time and his focus was on the group again. He was concerned about their record sales and with Break Away tried to make a difference. A real damaging thing happened at the end of the year when Murry sold Sea Of Tunes. I feel it made him lose a little confidence, but not completely yet. He seemed to enjoy owning the Radiant Radish the first year or so.
1970-While Brian sometimes seemed unsure of himself, and was prone to panic attacks once in a while, this was one of his most active years. He lost weight, played some shows, and actually seemed to want to participate when he did. Then again he did seem torn about signing the Warner's contract and acted somewhat passive aggressive about it.
1971-Brian said this was the point he felt the Beach Boys could really record extensively without him. Through the Surf's Up sessions he was there most of the time, but he wasn't writing as much. I feel the use of Surf's Up ended his desire to be a Beach Boy for a long time. He still worked with the group but again started missing a lot of sessions. Spring seemed to perk him up briefly, but even his work there was in fits and starts.
1972-Carl once said it was here he saw Brian being self destructive with drug's cocaine. Others have told me he changed when he came back from Holland. Less willing to go out, putting on a little weight. In 1976 he said his second major breakdown happened then. In Holland I think was when Brian really started showing signs of decline.
1973 His Iowa session seemed to find him in a good frame of mind. David Sandler has told me that Brian was a pretty normal guy around him when they knew each other well from 1970-73. He did note that he wasn't into drugs so Brian didn't do them around him. Early in the year he was still well groomed, and willing to even sing a little at a local Beach Boys show. When Murry died the bottom fell out. I think this was a huge moment for him sinking further into addiction and depression. Up till then he could still appear conduct himself with some poise, not so after.
1974-He was gaining massive weight, being thrown out of clubs, stopped cutting his hair, didn't seem to shave. While word got out that Brian was eccentric as early as 1966, this was when mental illness and drug abuse really started getting talked about. He had really changed
1975-He just got worse, blanking out on old friends etc. Now he didn't even look washed, and he set about to destroy his voice on purpose.
1976-Landy seemed to help the first time, but the nervous tremors started hands shaking, leg jiggling. His issues were made fully public that year (Nick Kent's 1975 article had done the same thing but not in a media blitz) and he became an erratic performer in the studio and on stage. He still seemed aware of everything around him though, and could converse with some ease in the right mood.
1977-He seemed in good shape as a whole, but drifted slowly back into self destruction. Also the odd public behavior hadn't stopped.
1978-Now he was worse than ever as far as drugs, or depression. A lot of time was spent in the hospital, plus his presence at Beach Boys sessions crawled to a halt as LA Light began to take shape.
1979-A brief weight loss helped, but by the end of the year he was heavy again. He also seemed a but flustered at times, zoned out in interviews during the LA Light promotion. Funny enough as he began to gain weight, he briefly rallied. No incidents seemed to happen on the road, he was touring regularly, and participating in KTSA sessions. Stephen Desper was working with the group again for about a year on and off, and he noticed Brian was less confident, less of a leader than he had been from 1967-72 (Stephen left in late 1971 but helped finish the Spring album in 1972).
1980-Brian still seems on for the most part. He continued to gain weight, but he did some very lucid interviews around this time. On stage he wasn't doing much at the shows, but there was still hope he was getting better.
1981-All of a sudden Brian takes a sharp decline. Heavier than ever, his stage singing was awful. The drugs went into very high gear again, plus he seemed to stop combing his hair, wearing clean clothes etc.
1982 Well it was an all time low. He was huge, putting himself in bad situations and acting very strange on stage.
1983-92. Robot Landy Brian. Never seemed quite as aware as before. Looked good, occasionally came up with a good song, but his work declined quite a bit with Eugene in general. Most of their work (discounting a good deal of Brian Wilson the LP) was in fact terrible. Didn't make his own decisions, was no longer as lucid. Seemed damaged, not always aware.
1993-now. He's had ups and downs, but his life no longer seemed in danger. Obviously he has done some great work in the last ten years, he hadn't acted so much a vital part of the group since the early seventies during the reunion. IJWMFTT found him a little more talkative than later, but by the time he hit his late fifties you could tell that some part of him was lost forever in the cocktails Landy gave him. Part of that is age, but he never totally lost the slur in his voice. He often is stiff in public.  It's not all sad though, he still can be pretty bright, and "with it" when he is in a quiet situation. Certainly he proved he can still write, sing, and perform when he is feeling good.

This is a fantastic post.

Thank you!

I'm glad you liked it.

[MBE]

Indeed, Mike's post is one of the better things I've ever read on this board. Although, I would say that Brian's onstage behavior I think may have been worse than implied. Take this clip from Maryland 1977 for example. Watch what Brian does after Feel Flows. While Carl introduces Dennis(who then introduces the next song), Brian is completely zoned out, singing and playing bass to whatever is playing in his head. It's like he forgot that he and his band are in front of thousands of people, and supposed to be playing a concert. I think that he might have been in far worse shape at the Knebworth than what the dvd and cd would have you believe. He pretty much ruined the first minute or so of In My Room by loudly banging out a fast boogie woogie riff that had absolutely nothing to do with the song. I'm not sure if it's on the officially released version, but on the bootleg audio Brian can also be heard playing Rhapsody in Blue right as the band goes into California Girls.

Thanks Jay. I think he was very erratic on stage from 1976-98. I didn't mean to underplay it. I would still say 1976 finds him more aware of what's going on than 1977. Landy drugs already had changed him a little.

[Sheriff John Stone]

As I was listening to those 1980 KTSA radio interviews in the other thread, I was impressed at how well Brian sounded. He appeared very lucid. Yeah, he was starting to gain weight in 1980 and probably using at that time also. But it also sheds more light on how much Landy destroyed Brian from 1983 - 1992.

I remember reading a post a few years ago from somebody who appeared to be a very knowledgeable person, at least in the field of medications. Actually, I think the post(er)  and thread was on this board. Anyway, this person stated emphatically that the medications that Landy (illegally) prescribed, while powerful, could not inflict permanent damage. This poster felt it was other "problems".

Now, I want to make this clear. I don't agree with that position, but I wouldn't mind exploring it. Does anybody know specifically what drugs Landy was pumping into Brian the second time around? And, is there anybody who might agree with the poster I was talking about, meaning that the drugs couldn't cause permanent brain damage?

[Myk Luhv]

I suspect just knowing what drugs Landy was giving him would not be enough to answer such a question? You'd likely also need to know at what dosage amount and with what frequency of use as well, which seem even less likely to be known to fans than the drug names themselves.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I don't know what other stuff Landy gave Brian but in addition to smoking weed, Brian was abusing Xanax at the time.  There is a video for Let's Go to Heaven in my car where he asks him for 'a dime and some Xanax...a couple of bars.'

Edit

It is. Look for part two. I cannot copy and paste the link from my cell phone but it is there. Actually he asks for half a xanax and a quarter. He is asked 'anything else' and I can't make out his response. All I can make out is 'and a '  then it cuts to something else.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Here it is. From about 0:20 through 1:00.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAeXSYOrXhE

Anybody know what a 'heel' is? I'm not familiar with that term.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

I'm interested in the Landy / weed thing. Didn't know this. So Brian still smoked through the Landy years eh?

For such an addictive personality as his, I wonder if he still dabbles in stuff

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Yeah, he sure did. I'm still trying to figure out what a 'heel' is (what Brian asked for twice). Never heard that term before, so I'm assuming it's a kind of pharm.

I doubt he does anything now aside from drinking the occasional beer.

[halblaineisgood]

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[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

His Landy-related problems are not so much mental as they are neurological.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Heel sounds like half of a xanax bar, or possibly some sort of smoking device. Either way, benzos and weed do not make a great combo. No wonder Brian seemed so "off" back then. I don't think people go off and stay off, though. He's on now, as on as an old  man can be. I don't really get on board with this "Permanent Landy Damage" stuff.

I respect your opinion and applaud you for stating it. Would you care to elaborate? It's almost unanimous that Landy PERMANENTLY damaged Brian. I'm just trying to find out - for my own knowledge, not to start anything - just what Landy gave Brian that permanently damaged him. Can you shed any light?

[Cam Mott]

His Landy-related problems are not so much mental as they are neurological.

That sounds right to me but what do I know.

[Dunderhead]

Here's something I posted in another thread, I feel like Brian's issues are really avoidance/anxiety issues more than anything else.

I'm never, ever still. Always in turmoil, you know? Hoping that somebody will save me, or that someone will come along and save my life, or save my day. That the world won't blow up, the universe won't explode. We'll never have each other again you know.

I think that quote basically lays Brian's entire psychology bare. We've muddied the waters when it comes to discussing the nature of his illness, and 'break downs' and 'freak outs' and the like are thrown out a little carelessly in my opinion.

The way I see it, Brian simply has a problem with agency. He doesn't like confrontation, he doesn't feel comfortable standing up for himself or telling others explicitly how he feels about something. He's always waiting for some twist of fate, or coincidence, or change of fortune, or divine intervention to sweep his problems away for him, which is why he's such a fatalist and believes in astrology and other "systems" of life.

Brian at times just seems to get into a groove that he isn't strong enough to break out of, he'll go along with a plan, say yes the whole time through hoping that he'll just be able to take the next exit off the freeway when it comes up, but he just doesn't have the nerve for that. The pressure builds and builds and in his mind things become more and more desperate until he, psychologically, only has one way out, to have an anxiety or panic attack. That's really his only release valve.

So I don't believe that Brian is having this panic attacks exactly for the reasons we tend to say that he does. I don't see it as being something that's so delusional and truly "insane" in a classical sense, but rather something that comes about more from his inability or unwillingness to cope with everyday stress.  

[halblaineisgood]

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[halblaineisgood]

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[Heteronym]

I've recently watched a video on youtube of Brian talking to some journalist or whoever backstage. The camera appeared to be hidden or something of the kind, so him and guy are seen from distance and the image is kinda blur. Anyway, Brian seemed MUCH more normal than I've seen in other interviews. Even his voice was okay and he was acting very comfortably. Shame I don't remember the name of the video, but that got me thinking that we can't really judge his current state from what we've seen of him in interviews or even shows. To me, aside from the neurological damage which I know nothing of, he's bored. He looks like someone who has a lot of thoughts in his head so every social obligation is annoying because it distracts him from his own personal world. It's like when you have a strong thought in your head, you're really working on it and have to make small talk with someone in the elevator. Being interviewed for 50 years must be incredibly boring. Rhapsody in Blue, Be My Baby, how my brothers and I would sing on our room, how I got the California Girl's bass line from Bach, etc, etc. Plus, there's also the fact that he does not like to perform. I think he just doesn't bother about fulfilling social protocols. For some people it's just harder than normal.

By the way, when the slurriness on his voice first appeared?

[Cam Mott]

I think you're right that we've got it wrong but I don't see Brian in actual fact having any problem with standing up for himself or in opposition to others. He did not "confront" in the classic sense he just had so much self confidence that he would just politely dismiss that which he did not want or agree with. He would just tell musicians, Boys, suits, Murry, to their face "naw we aren't goin do that" in a way that just was not offensive but was definitive. He would listen to opinions/suggestions and might even give them a try and if he didn't like or want to go with it he would just say so.

[Dunderhead]

But then again 'definitive' was often anything but wasn't it? From what I've read it doesn't sound like Brian wanted to go to Holland for example, but he still went eventually. I think, when it came to artistic decisions he definitely had more confidence than in other parts of his life, and was able to speak his mind the majority of the time, but when it came to other, more far-reaching decisions, decisions of a personal or professional nature, about the long-term future of the group, he tended to avoid being explicit.

[Cam Mott]

It could be, I'll have to bone up on Holland. I assumed it is was case of Brian wanting to and then not wanting to. Still if that is the only example, it would sort of prove the rule maybe: Brian didn't really do that which he didn't want to do.

I still tend toward a sort of a fan over-diagnosis which sort of excuses Brian from responsibility of actions and decisions he did/made which we fans don't wish him to be truly responsible for.

[halblaineisgood]

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