at what point did Brian start to seem "off"?

[Mr. Cohen]

I have it on good authority that Brian was a perfectly normal boy until he was vaccinated for polio. After that, he started obsessing over The Four Freshmen and drinking milkshakes.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Mike, thanks for the yearly log. I agree with r'n'r that the incident after Friends (possibly in some way related to the first "plundering" of the SMILE material in that time frame) is an important interim step in what was a gradually escalating set of emotional difficulties. As I think virtually all of us agree, given all that happened to him, it's a freakin' miracle that he's still with us and still making music.

I think a really important part of Mike's chronology too is that 1967, while bad, was not quite what it has been made out to be. I think because the Smile myth looms so large, some fans can only think of the Beach Boys in terms of "pre-Smile-Smile-post-Smile." And because, in that narrative, Smile is such a hinge point people end up believing that this was the breaking point in Brian's mental health when in reality, as Mike points out, it was a bad bump in a long road that would see much worse declines and severe breaks. And it's also why people, I think somewhat incorrectly, place a great deal of misplaced blame on Brian's LSD trips which probably didn't help but was certainly not the catalyst that people made it out to be.

As far as this "private issue" is concerned, I agree to an extent. However, I think we would be breaking the rules of decency and decorum if we were looking to go find Brian and ask him about all these issues. No one is doing that. Instead, we are talking about issues that have been matters of public record for years, and discussed to a great extent in Beach Boys sanctioned documentaries, films, and books.

[filledeplage]

Here's a good article about US Congress's relationship to the anti-vaccine conspiracy theory:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2012/12/04/congress_hearing_on_vaccines_is_a_farce_of_dangerous_antivax_nonsense.html

Thank you for posting this rockandroll. That article confirms a lot of what I already mentioned in my previous posts.

The video from Canada told the story @52 minutes into the hearing.  The panelists gave the old "party line" and propaganda about "tools in the toolbox" but I bet they wish they had some Immodium when the video rolled.  They went to med school and took chemistry and must have seen lab evacuations if and when mercury was spilled.  Stall and frustrate parents.  Delay children services.  

Thanks for posting even if we don't agree.  

[Bicyclerider]

Mike, thanks for the yearly log. I agree with r'n'r that the incident after Friends (possibly in some way related to the first "plundering" of the SMILE material in that time frame) is an important interim step in what was a gradually escalating set of emotional difficulties. As I think virtually all of us agree, given all that happened to him, it's a freakin' miracle that he's still with us and still making music.

I think a really important part of Mike's chronology too is that 1967, while bad, was not quite what it has been made out to be. I think because the Smile myth looms so large, some fans can only think of the Beach Boys in terms of "pre-Smile-Smile-post-Smile." And because, in that narrative, Smile is such a hinge point people end up believing that this was the breaking point in Brian's mental health when in reality, as Mike points out, it was a bad bump in a long road that would see much worse declines and severe breaks. And it's also why people, I think somewhat incorrectly, place a great deal of misplaced blame on Brian's LSD trips which probably didn't help but was certainly not the catalyst that people made it out to be.

As far as this "private issue" is concerned, I agree to an extent. However, I think we would be breaking the rules of decency and decorum if we were looking to go find Brian and ask him about all these issues. No one is doing that. Instead, we are talking about issues that have been matters of public record for years, and discussed to a great extent in Beach Boys sanctioned documentaries, films, and books.

If I remember correctly Peter Carlin's book describes how Brian seemed "off" to some of his high school crowd to the point of making them uncomfortable.  So while not rising to the level of a breakdown or psychiatric diagnosis, the roots of Brian's problems seem to go back to his teenage years.  And to my mind to a large extent precipitated by mental and physical abuse by his father.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Can we please stay on topic? Mike posted a lengthy response that was all but ignored except by a few.

[harrisonjon]

How much is just adapting to being:

1) deaf in one ear

2) shy

3) freaked out by fame?

Then there's the eternal question of 'what is normal anyway?' Often normal is just being able to maintain a front, which is a skill Brian never really had. If anything he's too transparent. We can hide our discomfort around crowds but he never has, even in 1963.

How long did he truly enjoy being famous? Six months, maybe? Then it wore him down, as it would any extra-shy man. Then there was the pressure of two albums a year plus touring. I'd be f***ed as well if I were him in the 1960s.

[hypehat]

Agreed, facial tics such as talking out of one side of your mouth can be easily ascribed to being deaf in one ear, and having the shakes can be ascribed to tardive diskensia, which is a result of being overdosed with pharmaceutical drugs - the 80s for Brian.


We are trying to diagnose the man when we are a bunch of Internet psychiatricists who happen to like our patients music. This discussion is pointless.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Can we please stay on topic? Mike posted a lengthy response that was all but ignored except by a few.

OK.....Mike, thanks for taking the time to do that post; that was a lot of typing! And, I agree with over 90% of it. I only take exception with two points.

First, yes, I believe that at times Brian was self-conscious about his high voice, or as he termed it "feminine" vocals. And, yes, I believe that he wanted a more masculine voice as he got older. And, yes, I agree that he sometimes intentionally sang more gruff and masculine. But, I will never concede that he intentionally tried to ruin his voice or get it to sound rougher or masculine by INTENTIONALLY ALTERING IT PHYSICALLY. He chained smoked because of his addictive personality and his addiction to nicotine. His vocal chords were irreparably damaged by excessive cocaine use. Essentially his vocal chords were scorched. I don't believe Brian knew the extent to which he was ruining his voice; it happened in a relatively short period of time.

Second, I do not believe that Brian's vocals in 1981 were THAT bad. I saw the Beach Boys a couple of times without Carl and Brian was given a few extra leads which he handled fine. Not great, but fine. I saw him nail the lead to "Don't Worry Baby" I think in Hershey, PA. I know I'm in the minority but I enjoyed parts - parts - of his vocals on that July 5, 1981 TV broadcast. Brian was wavering between trying to sing high or low. Yes, he struggled with his falsetto, but when he sang in a lower register it was strong. I mean, he was actually holding notes and appeared to be really "singing". It turned out to be a slight precursor to his solo career. When Brian emerged with Landy in 1983, almost all of Brian's vocals were deep, strong, and almost shouty. While I preferred the deep 1981 vocals, I never cared for his post-1982 vocals - at all.

[MBE]

I think fair points are raised. The 1968 breakdown was a big deal, but as far as productivity it didn't slow him down near as much musically as his later issues. I also take into account that in 1969-70 Brian seemed to be doing better for a time. Some of the home movies of him in the late sixties show him playing with the kids, not acting withdrawn etc. These are seen in the A&E bio for one. A lot that are used during the 1966 era actually come between 1968-71. Now that can be dismissed I guess, but the home movies used in IJWMFTT in the Still I Dream Of It segement show that by 1973-75 he couldn't even smile for the camera.

I know the voice thing is hard to fathom, but I have had too many people tell me the same thing about Brian in 1975. He was trying to smoke constantly at that point to ruin his voice. Even Marilyn said that was the case at the time. She still felt bad that he did it saying that though she and everyone else liked his voice the way it was she couldn't convince him it was good at the time.

The vocal thing is subjective I suppose. I find the 1981-82 concert tapes to be hard going. I think the cocaine tape has some good singing mixed with some wild moments, and I also think Stevie is a better vocal than most stuff since. I do think the 1983-91 Landy voice is the worst so I guess we agree to a point.

[Mikie]

Can we please stay on topic? Mike posted a lengthy response that was all but ignored except by a few.

Mike who?

[Sheriff John Stone]

I know the voice thing is hard to fathom, but I have had too many people tell me the same thing about Brian in 1975. He was trying to smoke constantly at that point to ruin his voice. Even Marilyn said that was the case at the time. She still felt bad that he did it saying that though she and everyone else liked his voice the way it was she couldn't convince him it was good at the time.

Hey, Mike, thanks for the quick response. Not to get into a Jon Stebbins or Stephen Desper situation, but I'm wondering.....Did BRIAN ever state, in any interview, that he was chain smoking to intentionally alter the sound of his voice?
 
There's a lot of regrettable situations and circumstances in Brian Wilson's life and career, but his emotional and physical decline in 1974-76 is, to me, the most tragic.

[Mikie]

Many, many times I've wanted to start a thread on that very subject. Especially after all the threads that talk about coke and hash and cigarette abuse around '74 and '75. I have a real hard time believing the cigarettes on purpose angle. Always have. Brian may have stated it once or twice, but until I hear him admit it in person in an interview, I'm relucrtant to believe it. Even then, he'll say one thing in an interview and another thing during another so what are you to believe?

[MBE]

Well again I know it seems impossible but I talked to at least four or five  people around Brian at the time who told me the exact same story including Marilyn so I think it is true. I did ask Brian about the vocal change without bringing up any self destructive behavior. He said he wanted to "try something new".

[Cam Mott]

How much is just adapting to being:

1) deaf in one ear

2) shy

3) freaked out by fame?

Then there's the eternal question of 'what is normal anyway?' Often normal is just being able to maintain a front, which is a skill Brian never really had. If anything he's too transparent. We can hide our discomfort around crowds but he never has, even in 1963.

How long did he truly enjoy being famous? Six months, maybe? Then it wore him down, as it would any extra-shy man. Then there was the pressure of two albums a year plus touring. I'd be f***ed as well if I were him in the 1960s.

I wonder too. And to be a genius who just thinks and does different by definition. I agree with Mike but to me you can see his early time as just a special guy with a special superstitious mind who has an occasional panic attack. Later he seems like a brilliant competitive guys who doesn't meet his def of being competitive anymore. I'm sure drug abuse was a problem and I can believe mental illness or brain damage eventually was in play. I don't know what I'm talking about and anyone with definitive knowledge would be prohibited from talking about Brian I suppose anyway, but I sometimes feel mental illness has been gone to too easily and which is maybe a function of the Brian-as-victim ethos that somehow got started long ago.

[Mikie]

I have a hard time with it. If he knew he couldn't sing high anymore or maintain that same trademark falsetto that made he and the Beach Boys famous, why would he mess with that on purpose. He used (tried) his falsetto on 15 Big Ones and Love You and beyond and with the exception of Matchpoint Of Our Love, it sounded forced and not quite up to standard. I wonder what he thought then after he and the other Beach Boys heard that played back. Even it the harmony stack with the original Beach Boys, it would never be the same. I'm sure they were dismayed and I'll bet you anything they new it wasn't contrived - Brian had no choice in the matter - his vocal chords were permanately damaged. Now if he said that he did it on purpose after he'd already damaged it, that would make sense. He speaking voice in general and singing voice started deteriorating in late 1974 and REALLY deteriorated in 1975. So when he wanted to sing high, he could, but not like he did even in the early 70's. So you can still see that he wanted to sing high during some songs post 1975, but he couldn't quite hit those same high notes that he did in the 60's and early 70's because of the smokes and cokes. He had a chance to reverse it, then when it was too late, he couldn't and had no choice in the matter.  

When I think of this issue, I think about what McCartney said after he did acid, but not too much. He said he just wanted to be able to come back afterwards. Brian's original voice never really did come back afterwards.

[Kurosawa]

Has Brian ever had his vocal cords worked on?

[KittyKat]

Has Brian ever had his vocal cords worked on?

I doubt it. If he did, he should sue the surgeon just like Julie Andrews did.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Some of Brian's vocal changes weren't necessarily entirely related to damage. He had damage, yes, but he was also using his voice differently, even when singing high. Oddly enough, some of his Landy-era demos, such as 'Don't Let Her Know She's an Angel' and 'Walking on Water', feature him trying to sing in his old style, only by this time his voice was shot. The weird part is, once it came time to record songs for albums, he sang them completely differently.

[Jay]

Some of Brian's vocal changes weren't necessarily entirely related to damage. He had damage, yes, but he was also using his voice differently, even when singing high. Oddly enough, some of his Landy-era demos, such as 'Don't Let Her Know She's an Angel' and 'Walking on Water', feature him trying to sing in his old style, only by this time his voice was shot. The weird part is, once it came time to record songs for albums, he sang them completely differently.

I was just thinking the other day that in that demo of DLHKSAA, Brian seems to have a certain tone to his voice that sounded similar to his 1960's voice. Not the actual singing per se, but he would say certain words, or parts of words, and it struck me at how similar it sounded to the old Brian.

[filledeplage]

Agreed, facial tics such as talking out of one side of your mouth can be easily ascribed to being deaf in one ear, and having the shakes can be ascribed to tardive diskensia, which is a result of being overdosed with pharmaceutical drugs - the 80s for Brian.


We are trying to diagnose the man when we are a bunch of Internet psychiatricists who happen to like our patients music. This discussion is pointless.

Agreed 100%

p.s. I did notice Mike's contribution, and chronology and appreciate his work.  But, commentary and speculation about someone's health is generally a private matter, and better left for his family and health providers. 

[Paul J B]

He's a public figure. People will be discussing his mental state long after he is gone. No different than talking about Vincent van Gogh. After exiting the 50th tour at the Marcus Theater last July, A woman walking close to me commented to someone else......" He suffered a major stroke you know so it's amazing he is even out there onstage".......I almost corrected her, but decided I could not begin to explain what we know or think we know so I let it go.

This thread could be broken down to "seem off' to who? family, friends, colleges, fans........Did fans think much of anything until his '75-'76 "comeback" when he came back into the public eye and was clearly not the same Beach Boy Brian they had known? I first became a fan in '74 and had no idea at first that the big gruff overweight guy was responsible for the whole thing and was the one belting out the trademark falsetto all over Endless Summer.  Hal Blaine comments in one of the video bio's that Brian would show signs of mental disorder in the studio sessions way back.

[MBE]

Agreed, facial tics such as talking out of one side of your mouth can be easily ascribed to being deaf in one ear, and having the shakes can be ascribed to tardive diskensia, which is a result of being overdosed with pharmaceutical drugs - the 80s for Brian.


We are trying to diagnose the man when we are a bunch of Internet psychiatricists who happen to like our patients music. This discussion is pointless.

Agreed 100%

p.s. I did notice Mike's contribution, and chronology and appreciate his work.  But, commentary and speculation about someone's health is generally a private matter, and better left for his family and health providers. 

I do try to be sensitive in that I don't make anything public that I think would hurt anyone. I just wanted people to realize that the changes started early and were very slow in manifesting themselves.

[Jim V.]

Agreed, facial tics such as talking out of one side of your mouth can be easily ascribed to being deaf in one ear, and having the shakes can be ascribed to tardive diskensia, which is a result of being overdosed with pharmaceutical drugs - the 80s for Brian.


We are trying to diagnose the man when we are a bunch of Internet psychiatricists who happen to like our patients music. This discussion is pointless.

Agreed 100%

p.s. I did notice Mike's contribution, and chronology and appreciate his work.  But, commentary and speculation about someone's health is generally a private matter, and better left for his family and health providers. 

I do try to be sensitive in that I don't make anything public that I think would hurt anyone. I just wanted people to realize that the changes started early and were very slow in manifesting themselves.

You know what would be awesome?? The publication of your book, Mike! Pleeeeeeeeeeeease.

Sorry to take the thread off-topic, but we NEED your book. What's goin' on?

[Shady]

Marilyn once put it to me like this. Brian always had good days and bad days but the bad gradually became more frequent. 
Here are the changes over the years I perceived or have been told about.
1963-He already wants off the road and is putting on weight. Brian said in a 1964 interview that he had a health food diet in high school but found it harder to maintain on the road. His bad eatting habits stuck with him from then on.
1964-We have panic attacks on the Europe tour, and the big breakdown at the end of the year.
1965-Brian was still pretty active, and would still make the effort to go on TV or hometown gigs. It was reported later that he had a few panic attacks, but not quite breakdowns.
1966-The Pet Sounds sessions seem very tight, but by the end of the year he seems to not be as certain. He was becoming a perfectionist to the point where he would tinker too much on things. Not going on the road much at all, but still concerned enough with the live act to rehearse them hard on Good Vibrations
1967-This wasn't the big meltdown it has been made out to be. Yes his actions were odd at times, yes he seems to have lost some of his drive but he seems to have made a conscious decision to not be as competitive. He also seems to have rediscovered the joy of working with the guys. Consider this, in the 12 months after Smile (June 1967-68)  he headed three unconventional but great albums., He also played Hawaii, worked at saving it for a faux-live  studio project, and recorded roughly another LP worth of outtakes.
1968-The year began well, but by the middle of the year he seemed to be burning out for real. He went to an institution briefly, and some feel he was different when he came out. Others told me they didn't see a real difference yet. He did seem to be excited about being a dad initially, but Marilyn told Stephen Gaines that it was after they had the children that she began to get concerned. One thing should be made clear, he may not have been taking the helm like before, but he was still active in the studio the last six months of 1968 with and without The Beach Boys. He also was still making public appearances if not doing any shows. Yellow Submarine premiere, a concert where he signed autographs with the others in the entrances etc. First time he missed sessions though.
1969-Brian seems to have bounced back to a certain point. He was working a lot during this time and his focus was on the group again. He was concerned about their record sales and with Break Away tried to make a difference. A real damaging thing happened at the end of the year when Murry sold Sea Of Tunes. I feel it made him lose a little confidence, but not completely yet. He seemed to enjoy owning the Radiant Radish the first year or so.
1970-While Brian sometimes seemed unsure of himself, and was prone to panic attacks once in a while, this was one of his most active years. He lost weight, played some shows, and actually seemed to want to participate when he did. Then again he did seem torn about signing the Warner's contract and acted somewhat passive aggressive about it.
1971-Brian said this was the point he felt the Beach Boys could really record extensively without him. Through the Surf's Up sessions he was there most of the time, but he wasn't writing as much. I feel the use of Surf's Up ended his desire to be a Beach Boy for a long time. He still worked with the group but again started missing a lot of sessions. Spring seemed to perk him up briefly, but even his work there was in fits and starts.
1972-Carl once said it was here he saw Brian being self destructive with drug's cocaine. Others have told me he changed when he came back from Holland. Less willing to go out, putting on a little weight. In 1976 he said his second major breakdown happened then. In Holland I think was when Brian really started showing signs of decline.
1973 His Iowa session seemed to find him in a good frame of mind. David Sandler has told me that Brian was a pretty normal guy around him when they knew each other well from 1970-73. He did note that he wasn't into drugs so Brian didn't do them around him. Early in the year he was still well groomed, and willing to even sing a little at a local Beach Boys show. When Murry died the bottom fell out. I think this was a huge moment for him sinking further into addiction and depression. Up till then he could still appear conduct himself with some poise, not so after.
1974-He was gaining massive weight, being thrown out of clubs, stopped cutting his hair, didn't seem to shave. While word got out that Brian was eccentric as early as 1966, this was when mental illness and drug abuse really started getting talked about. He had really changed
1975-He just got worse, blanking out on old friends etc. Now he didn't even look washed, and he set about to destroy his voice on purpose.
1976-Landy seemed to help the first time, but the nervous tremors started hands shaking, leg jiggling. His issues were made fully public that year (Nick Kent's 1975 article had done the same thing but not in a media blitz) and he became an erratic performer in the studio and on stage. He still seemed aware of everything around him though, and could converse with some ease in the right mood.
1977-He seemed in good shape as a whole, but drifted slowly back into self destruction. Also the odd public behavior hadn't stopped.
1978-Now he was worse than ever as far as drugs, or depression. A lot of time was spent in the hospital, plus his presence at Beach Boys sessions crawled to a halt as LA Light began to take shape.
1979-A brief weight loss helped, but by the end of the year he was heavy again. He also seemed a but flustered at times, zoned out in interviews during the LA Light promotion. Funny enough as he began to gain weight, he briefly rallied. No incidents seemed to happen on the road, he was touring regularly, and participating in KTSA sessions. Stephen Desper was working with the group again for about a year on and off, and he noticed Brian was less confident, less of a leader than he had been from 1967-72 (Stephen left in late 1971 but helped finish the Spring album in 1972).
1980-Brian still seems on for the most part. He continued to gain weight, but he did some very lucid interviews around this time. On stage he wasn't doing much at the shows, but there was still hope he was getting better.
1981-All of a sudden Brian takes a sharp decline. Heavier than ever, his stage singing was awful. The drugs went into very high gear again, plus he seemed to stop combing his hair, wearing clean clothes etc.
1982 Well it was an all time low. He was huge, putting himself in bad situations and acting very strange on stage.
1983-92. Robot Landy Brian. Never seemed quite as aware as before. Looked good, occasionally came up with a good song, but his work declined quite a bit with Eugene in general. Most of their work (discounting a good deal of Brian Wilson the LP) was in fact terrible. Didn't make his own decisions, was no longer as lucid. Seemed damaged, not always aware.
1993-now. He's had ups and downs, but his life no longer seemed in danger. Obviously he has done some great work in the last ten years, he hadn't acted so much a vital part of the group since the early seventies during the reunion. IJWMFTT found him a little more talkative than later, but by the time he hit his late fifties you could tell that some part of him was lost forever in the cocktails Landy gave him. Part of that is age, but he never totally lost the slur in his voice. He often is stiff in public.  It's not all sad though, he still can be pretty bright, and "with it" when he is in a quiet situation. Certainly he proved he can still write, sing, and perform when he is feeling good.

This is a fantastic post.

Thank you!

[Jay]

Indeed, Mike's post is one of the better things I've ever read on this board. Although, I would say that Brian's onstage behavior I think may have been worse than implied. Take this clip from Maryland 1977 for example. Watch what Brian does after Feel Flows. While Carl introduces Dennis(who then introduces the next song), Brian is completely zoned out, singing and playing bass to whatever is playing in his head. It's like he forgot that he and his band are in front of thousands of people, and supposed to be playing a concert. I think that he might have been in far worse shape at the Knebworth than what the dvd and cd would have you believe. He pretty much ruined the first minute or so of In My Room by loudly banging out a fast boogie woogie riff that had absolutely nothing to do with the song. I'm not sure if it's on the officially released version, but on the bootleg audio Brian can also be heard playing Rhapsody in Blue right as the band goes into California Girls.