You Are So Beautiful, AGD... To MEEEEEE!

[Jon Stebbins]

If you want to say there's "elbow room" to deny the story that's fine, if you don't think it passes the smell test, that's your choice, if you want to question the entire concept please be my guest. But to do that you are fundamentally saying that Billy Hinsche's very clear and direct memory of having seen this song being created by Preston and Dennis is not true. So own it, because that is what you are saying. And you are also saying that you know better than dozens of Dennis' family and friends who also believed Dennis' claim about having a hand in writing the song. If you feel comfortable with that...okay. Just don't give me this maybe, kinda, could have, not sure...blah blah blah. There are twenty credible insiders and Wilsons who will back this up. Preston not only denied the story, he denied ever having met Dennis or even knowing who he was. EVERYBODY knows that was total bullshit, he knew Dennis well. They spent time together ingesting substances and playing the piano, that is documented by another dozen or two people.

This story came to me in a way that felt like the real truth, otherwise I would have ignored it, because I've heard some incredible things about Dennis that I'd never put in a book. This wasn't re-writing history. This was discovering some unknown, or unpublished history, with multiple credible sources backing it up. I first heard it from BB's engineer Tom Murphy in about 1998, by accident. I was talking about Dennis performing the song live during an interview with him,. NO ONE had ever told me, or reported anything about Dennis co-writing YASB prior to this. But Murphy just mentioned very matter of factly, "you know Dennis wrote that song." I was like...HA! You gotta be kidding. Dennis was lying or drunk when he told you that. Murphy says to me, "Dennis would never lie about something like that." So I filed it in my head as BS...and moved on. Months later I am interviewing Billy Hinsche...in the interview we are joking about Dennis' wild stories etc...I say, and whoa I heard a real whopper from Tom Murphy...he says Dennis told him he wrote YASB with Billy Preston...Hinsche stops me mid sentence and says "I was there. I saw them working on it. Its true." He went on the record. Weeks later I'm interviewing James Guercio, I ask him do you know anything about Dennis and You Are So Beautiful...Guercio says "I know he helped write it with Billy preston, but he never took credit for it." Weeks later Karen Lamm tells me the same, weeks later Gregg Jakobson tells me the same...and on and on. This is called reporting. You research, you find a claim, you evaluate the credibility, you find multiple sources for the claim...and then you report the claim citing your sources. Denial with nothing but a "feeling" is your choice. I did the leg work on this. I believe it. Otherwise I am ignoring and disrespecting all of those who know more about Dennis than any of us...and who also believe it.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

But to do that you are fundamentally saying that Billy Hinsche's very clear and direct memory of having seen this song being created by Preston and Dennis is not true. So own it, because that is what you are saying. And you are also saying that you know better than dozens of Dennis' family and friends who also believed Dennis' claim about having a hand in writing the song.

I believe Dennis played a role in the song but this kind of talk is sneaky since you are fundamentally saying that you think that Billy Preston's memory of the creation of the song "is not true" and you are also saying that you know better than Billy Preston. So, what's the difference?

[Jon Stebbins]

But to do that you are fundamentally saying that Billy Hinsche's very clear and direct memory of having seen this song being created by Preston and Dennis is not true. So own it, because that is what you are saying. And you are also saying that you know better than dozens of Dennis' family and friends who also believed Dennis' claim about having a hand in writing the song.

I believe Dennis played a role in the song but this kind of talk is sneaky since you are fundamentally saying that you think that Billy Preston's memory of the creation of the song "is not true" and you are also saying that you know better than Billy Preston. So, what's the difference?

I'd say the difference is that Preston said he had no idea who Dennis Wilson was. I can give you 50 people who will go on record with evidence that they were friends.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

So, again, you are calling Billy Preston a liar.

[bgas]

So, again, you are calling Billy Preston a liar.

He IS a Liar.  Why don't you take your slimy scumbag Billy Preston fandom over to his board and leave this place to those who are fans of Dennis and the BBs?

[Jim V.]

Is it possible that maybe Dennis thought he helped co-write it, and that Billy had it mostly finished, with Dennis maybe adding a lyric or a melody for some part of the song?

I imagine it could honestly be like the history of "Sail On, Sailor". I don't have any inside access to the writing of the song, but this is what I imagine happened.Where you have Brian and maybe Tandyn Almer starting and coming up with the basis of the song, with Van Dyke Parks helping to compose maybe somewhat, not knowing the Brian and Tandyn already had done work. Then you have Ray Kennedy who put lyrics to it at a party supposedly, only to have Jack Rieley supplant a bunch of them. But anyways, you probably got a bunch of guys who claim it was them who definitively "wrote" "Sail On, Sailor", whereas they didn't know the song was already around before their minimal contributions. I think that might be what happened with Dennis. Maybe he helped with a few lines, but not something really writers credit worthy (unless of course you are Mike Love on "Wouldn't It Be Nice").

[Jon Stebbins]

So, again, you are calling Billy Preston a liar.

Billy Preston had no role in the original report. Go read my book. I don't give a sh*t about Billy Preston. I wrote a biography about Dennis Wilson. I reported that MANY of DW's friends, family and associates believed the reason Dennis sang that song in concert, night after night, year after year, was because he felt he had helped create it. Billy Hinsche went on record in my book as saying he witnessed the collaboration. Billy Preston was in prison at the time and unavailable for comment. I would have gladly included his side, except that later, after my book had come out, Preston was asked about the possibility of Dennis helping write YASB....his response was that he did not know who Dennis Wilson was. An army of Dennis' friends in turn responded that this was utter bullshit. You got it now?

And again...to Sweetdudejim...Dennis NEVER asked for credit, never sought it, never went on record to the press etc... he just told his close friends and family that he felt the song was partially his creation, and Billy Hinsche remembers why, because he was there when Preston and Dennis were working on the song.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I'm with Jon on this one. Too many people can back this up. I'd believe them over a convicted sex offender who also committed insurance fraud. The man may have been a great musician but let's be real here. Has anybody else besides Preston denied Dennis's involvement?

Also I have NEVER heard anything about Billy H being anything but a standup guy. So I would believe him.

[Jon Stebbins]

Has anybody else besides Preston denied Dennis's involvement?

No

[OGoldin]

Billy Preston no doubt was worried about losing what I imagine were substantial royalties.  Dennis might not have cared about the credit and royalties but his estate would be a different story.  Understandable if not excusable that he cut off that line of questioning as abruptly as he could have.

To say he lied is not to say he was a liar.  Some very fine people thought very highly of Billy Preston as a man.  We can leave it at that.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Keep in mind that I started off by saying precisely that Dennis played a role in writing the song. But clearly even that's not enough to make me a Beach Boys fan.

I think bgas has a point - if being a Beach Boys fan requires me to call one of the great musicians a scumbag because he didn't acknowledge Dennis's involvement in a song, then, I certainly don't want to be a Beach Boys fan and this is certainly a community that I would want no part in since it seems to suffer from a fundamental illness.

[SMiLE Brian]

Agreed, BBs fans don't need to be nasty about talented musicians.

[Jon Stebbins]

Keep in mind that I started off by saying precisely that Dennis played a role in writing the song. But clearly even that's not enough to make me a Beach Boys fan.

I think bgas has a point - if being a Beach Boys fan requires me to call one of the great musicians a scumbag because he didn't acknowledge Dennis's involvement in a song, then, I certainly don't want to be a Beach Boys fan and this is certainly a community that I would want no part in since it seems to suffer from a fundamental illness.

I think maybe you are over-reacting. I would never call Preston a scumbag or anything else. I never met him, and don't know much about him personally. I liked his contributions to Let it Be. I can report that he claimed to not know who Dennis Wilson was, and that a bunch of Dennis' friends found that laughable.

[Mikie]

So, again, you are calling Billy Preston a liar. He IS a Liar.  Why don't you take your slimy scumbag Billy Preston fandom over to his board and leave this place to those who are fans of Dennis and the BBs?

That's not nice, Bgas.  RockandRoll is an OK dude.

I believe the story. How many creds do you need? I trust Hinsche and Guercio. Hinsche was there and more than likely was clear headed that night. He doesn't seem like the type to get all f*cked up on alcohol and drugs at a party and not remember things right. He knows what he saw and heard. Seems Gregg and Karen weren't there but they were close to him. Desper remembers the melody kicking around in Dennis' head in the early 70's. Don't know about Murphy, but why would he B.S. the story?

Speaking of Billy Preston fandom. I saw Billy play a show in Santa Cruz in the 90's. After the gig, he was selling CD's on a table just off stage. My daughter was with me and I asked that one of the two ladies selling the CD's go back stage and ask Billy to come out and shake hands with us. He wouldn't come out. The lady told me on the sly that he couldn't come out; "he was too inibriated". That soon after the gig? So we asked that he just sign my daughter's CD. That took a good 15 minutes for the CD to come back and he just scrawled "Billy P" on the cover. I was a little put off by that. F U Billy, I don't care if you did play on Beatles records!!

[OGoldin]

A lot of time musicians play around with ideas together -- it's part of the the joy of making music.   When a song arises that way among friends, as opposed to being a result of a calculated partnership, one party it likely to say "It's yours, don't worry about it."  In this case, the collaboration becomes a megahit worth much money.  Yes, the gracious thing would have been to have voluntarily changed the credits, but by the 80s Preston was no longer a superstar and he had quite an expensive freebase problem.  So again, we can understand without excusing his denial.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I think bgas has a point - if being a Beach Boys fan requires me to call one of the great musicians a scumbag because he didn't acknowledge Dennis's involvement in a song, then, I certainly don't want to be a Beach Boys fan and this is certainly a community that I would want no part in since it seems to suffer from a fundamental illness.

I wouldn't go that far myself.  All I am saying is for whatever reason (see below) Preston had either A)not been honest   or B) honestly didn't remember due to his addictions at the time. It doesn't take away from his other musical accomplishments, and hell, 99% of our favorite musicians have done some deplorable things as well as having selective memories when it comes to songwriting. I mean, this is a BB board for crying out loud...we KNOW this already!

Billy Preston no doubt was worried about losing what I imagine were substantial royalties.  Dennis might not have cared about the credit and royalties but his estate would be a different story.  Understandable if not excusable that he cut off that line of questioning as abruptly as he could have.

^ This is a very good point.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I think maybe you are over-reacting. I would never call Preston a scumbag or anything else.

Read up the thread, Jon. You did not call Preston a "scumbag" - bgas did. He called him a "slimy scumbag" in fact and then suggested the usual line of BS echoed around this place that I'm not a real BB fan. Something that would sting if I took it seriously.

Again, I believe that Dennis co-wrote the song if only because it legitimately sounds like a Dennis song. But I do have a problem with the fact that there are two positions to be had here and both sides are saying two different things so it is difficult to say with any degree of certainty who is right and who is wrong and so I don't find the "So you're calling X a liar" that productive, especially since nobody has an objective memory.

[I. Spaceman]

  Why don't you take your slimy scumbag Billy Preston fandom 

Lame.

[I. Spaceman]

  I'd believe them over a convicted sex offender who also committed insurance fraud. 

Yes, that guy wrote a song with a drug addict/alcoholic who married his teenage relative and fraternized with murderers. While we're trashing people, that is.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I wonder how many other cases in music history have occurred. As a songwriter myself the idea of someone not getting proper due bothers me, but at the end of the day, we know the truth, as it were, and Dennis obviously didn't seem to have an outward issue with not getting credit.

Yes, that guy wrote a song with a drug addict/alcoholic who married his teenage relative and fraternized with murderers. While we're trashing people, that is.

Oh no doubt...just trying to point out that neither Dennis nor Preston were saints of any sort (like, honestly, most musicians aren't), but when someone like Billy Hinsche (who, as previously stated, is a standup guy who to my knowledge has never had any negative things said about him by anyone, which is a rarity in this business) states something and is backed up by others, well, I tend to believe that person.

[Mikie]

Billy either has a selective memory (probably) or he was just too messed up at the party to even remember what town he was in. And Dennis never came forward and approached Billy or the publishing company claiming credit after Cocker made it a hit. And who's the other guy who got credit for writing the song? Never heard of him. Somebody oughta ask him what his involvement was and if he knew about Dennis contributing to the song at the time.

[I. Spaceman]

I wonder how many other cases in music history have occurred. As a songwriter myself the idea of someone not getting proper due bothers me, but at the end of the day, we know the truth, as it were, and Dennis obviously didn't seem to have an outward issue with not getting credit.

Yes, that guy wrote a song with a drug addict/alcoholic who married his teenage relative and fraternized with murderers. While we're trashing people, that is.

Oh no doubt...just trying to point out that neither Dennis nor Preston were saints of any sort (like, honestly, most musicians aren't), but when someone like Billy Hinsche (who, as previously stated, is a standup guy who to my knowledge has never had any negative things said about him by anyone, which is a rarity in this business) states something and is backed up by others, well, I tend to believe that person.

I believe the story myself.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Billy either has a selective memory (probably) or he was just too messed up at the party to even remember what town he was in. And Dennis never came forward and approached Billy or the publishing company claiming credit after c*cker made it a hit. And who's the other guy who got credit for writing the song? Never heard of him. Somebody oughta ask him what his involvement was and if he knew about Dennis contributing to the song at the time.

I seriously need to fix that word filter...I mean, I'm no huge fan of Joe Cocker, but that's just sad

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fixed

[OGoldin]

. Somebody oughta ask him what his involvement was and if he knew about Dennis contributing to the song at the time.

this is the dude in case anyone is on linkedin

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/bruce-fisher/a/161/ab0

of course, we are talking about potentially messing with his royalties, too!

[Mikie]

Billy either has a selective memory (probably) or he was just too messed up at the party to even remember what town he was in. And Dennis never came forward and approached Billy or the publishing company claiming credit after c*cker made it a hit. And who's the other guy who got credit for writing the song? Never heard of him. Somebody oughta ask him what his involvement was and if he knew about Dennis contributing to the song at the time.

I seriously need to fix that word filter...I mean, I'm no huge fan of Joe Cocker, but that's just sad

edit


fixed

Thanks, Billy! I thought it was funny and was just gonna mention that! I can understand the filter catching part of the name, but "Cocker"?