Any of you audio isolation experts able to isolate the guitars on IKTAA?

[zachrwolfe]

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[c-man]

Reviving this thread to get the guitar experts' opinions on a few of the PS guitar parts...namely:

I'M WAITING FOR THE DAY
Sounds mostly like one electric 12-string, with echo/leakage picked up on the track opposite in the stereo mix - but at one point on the SOT session tape, it's heard noodling between-takes, and sounds more like a 6-string to me...

LET'S GO AWAY FOR AWHILE
The strummed acoustic sounds like a 6-string to me, but since Carol Kaye heard it as two acoustics when interviewed for the box set booklet, I'm wondering if anyone else hears it that way (meaning, as a 12-string, since there were only two guitar players on the session, and the other one was playing the part mentioned directly below)...
And the electric bottleneck part sounds like a 12-string on the between-take parts of the SOT session tape...does anyone else hear it that way?

I JUST WASN'T MADE FOR THESE TIMES
Is Glen's acoustic (the box he switches to after Brian has him give up the banjo from the earlier takes) a 6- or a 12-string? On the SOT session tape between-take strumming, it sounds to me like a 12, but maybe that's just the echo chamber effect?...

If someone can definitvely answer these four questions...why, then we'd have world peace! 

[guitarfool2002]

Reviving this thread to get the guitar experts' opinions on a few of the PS guitar parts...namely:

I'M WAITING FOR THE DAY
Sounds mostly like one electric 12-string, with echo/leakage picked up on the track opposite in the stereo mix - but at one point on the SOT session tape, it's heard noodling between-takes, and sounds more like a 6-string to me...

The "rehearsal" track sounds like a six-string for some reason. After that it sounds like a 12-string electric. Before take 11, it hits a few chords which are heard over the talkback and it sounds like a 12-string.

Where or on what take is the noodling you mentioned heard?

[guitarfool2002]

Reviving this thread to get the guitar experts' opinions on a few of the PS guitar parts...namely:

I'M WAITING FOR THE DAY
Sounds mostly like one electric 12-string, with echo/leakage picked up on the track opposite in the stereo mix - but at one point on the SOT session tape, it's heard noodling between-takes, and sounds more like a 6-string to me...

The "rehearsal" track sounds like a six-string for some reason. After that it sounds like a 12-string electric. Before take 11, it hits a few chords which are heard over the talkback and it sounds like a 12-string.

Where or on what take is the noodling you mentioned heard?

On take 11, just before Brian says "wait a minute, Al I think you forgot..." the pre-chorus guitar figures are definitely a 12-string electric. To my ears at least. 

[guitarfool2002]

Reviving this thread to get the guitar experts' opinions on a few of the PS guitar parts...namely:

I JUST WASN'T MADE FOR THESE TIMES
Is Glen's acoustic (the box he switches to after Brian has him give up the banjo from the earlier takes) a 6- or a 12-string? On the SOT session tape between-take strumming, it sounds to me like a 12, but maybe that's just the echo chamber effect?...

Around take 5, Brian asks Glen "what are you playing?", Glen strums the chords, Brian says just play a few notes there, someone says the pitch is flat, then they check the tuning, and that guitar I'm 99% sure is a 12-string acoustic.

Which would explain tuning/intonation issues as well. 

[guitarfool2002]

LET'S GO AWAY FOR AWHILE
The strummed acoustic sounds like a 6-string to me, but since Carol Kaye heard it as two acoustics when interviewed for the box set booklet, I'm wondering if anyone else hears it that way (meaning, as a 12-string, since there were only two guitar players on the session, and the other one was playing the part mentioned directly below)...
And the electric bottleneck part sounds like a 12-string on the between-take parts of the SOT session tape...does anyone else hear it that way?

I hear one archtop acoustic 6-string strumming the jazz chords, and if it lines up that had to be Barney Kessel playing that part. And if sessions he played at this same time are any indication, it could have been this 30's Gibson L-5 archtop that Barney often used to play rhythm on sessions, as shown in this photo from a session in early 1966:



Tommy Tedesco also favored a similar archtop acoustic style guitar when he did rhythm tracks as well.

I hear the slide also as a 12-string electric, from Al Casey. But it's tough to tell on the actual master take...I'd lean toward 12-string electric, though.

Question: Where on SOT are these LGA sessions? I only have them on the box set.

[c-man]

Reviving this thread to get the guitar experts' opinions on a few of the PS guitar parts...namely:

I'M WAITING FOR THE DAY
Sounds mostly like one electric 12-string, with echo/leakage picked up on the track opposite in the stereo mix - but at one point on the SOT session tape, it's heard noodling between-takes, and sounds more like a 6-string to me...

The "rehearsal" track sounds like a six-string for some reason. After that it sounds like a 12-string electric. Before take 11, it hits a few chords which are heard over the talkback and it sounds like a 12-string.

Where or on what take is the noodling you mentioned heard?

In between the rehearsal and Take 1...and, I think, it's a 6-string on Take 1 itself...the SOT presentation then jumps from Take 1 to Take 9...then I agree, it's a 12-string after that, all the way.

[c-man]

LET'S GO AWAY FOR AWHILE
The strummed acoustic sounds like a 6-string to me, but since Carol Kaye heard it as two acoustics when interviewed for the box set booklet, I'm wondering if anyone else hears it that way (meaning, as a 12-string, since there were only two guitar players on the session, and the other one was playing the part mentioned directly below)...
And the electric bottleneck part sounds like a 12-string on the between-take parts of the SOT session tape...does anyone else hear it that way?

I hear one archtop acoustic 6-string strumming the jazz chords, and if it lines up that had to be Barney Kessel playing that part. And if sessions he played at this same time are any indication, it could have been this 30's Gibson L-5 archtop that Barney often used to play rhythm on sessions, as shown in this photo from a session in early 1966:



Tommy Tedesco also favored a similar archtop acoustic style guitar when he did rhythm tracks as well.

I hear the slide also as a 12-string electric, from Al Casey. But it's tough to tell on the actual master take...I'd lean toward 12-string electric, though.

Question: Where on SOT are these LGA sessions? I only have them on the box set.

Oops...I actually meant "Leggo My Ego" on that one...

[c-man]

Reviving this thread to get the guitar experts' opinions on a few of the PS guitar parts...namely:

I JUST WASN'T MADE FOR THESE TIMES
Is Glen's acoustic (the box he switches to after Brian has him give up the banjo from the earlier takes) a 6- or a 12-string? On the SOT session tape between-take strumming, it sounds to me like a 12, but maybe that's just the echo chamber effect?...

Around take 5, Brian asks Glen "what are you playing?", Glen strums the chords, Brian says just play a few notes there, someone says the pitch is flat, then they check the tuning, and that guitar I'm 99% sure is a 12-string acoustic.

Which would explain tuning/intonation issues as well. 

Thanks! Any chance that's an archtop 12-string? Did they make such things then? It doesn't sound "loud" enough to be a "normal" flatop, dreadnaught, big hole in the middle kinda acoustic...

[Bleachboy]

I've read in The Wrecking Crew book that Brian called one of the guitar players (was it Glen Campbell?) up for a session, called one of the biggest music shops in LA (which was not open) to bring him a Fender twelve string and a big Fender amp. At the end of the session, Brian told him that he could keep all the gear and bring it to his house...

Nice!!

[guitarfool2002]

Reviving this thread to get the guitar experts' opinions on a few of the PS guitar parts...namely:

I JUST WASN'T MADE FOR THESE TIMES
Is Glen's acoustic (the box he switches to after Brian has him give up the banjo from the earlier takes) a 6- or a 12-string? On the SOT session tape between-take strumming, it sounds to me like a 12, but maybe that's just the echo chamber effect?...

Around take 5, Brian asks Glen "what are you playing?", Glen strums the chords, Brian says just play a few notes there, someone says the pitch is flat, then they check the tuning, and that guitar I'm 99% sure is a 12-string acoustic.

Which would explain tuning/intonation issues as well. 

Thanks! Any chance that's an archtop 12-string? Did they make such things then? It doesn't sound "loud" enough to be a "normal" flatop, dreadnaught, big hole in the middle kinda acoustic...

I'm thinking that lack of boominess could have been due to how they had the guitar mic'ed, and how they had Glen positioned in front of the mic. The thing with Pet Sounds sessions that is cool is you hear them in the booth telling various players to move in closer or back off from the mic, basically adjusting levels and balances without touching a fader...truly a lost art! So if Glen's guitar was too loud, they could move the mic farther away or have him turn a bit to the side and there was the balance. Really cool old-school recording and production.

There were archtop acoustic 12-strings but they were *very* uncommon, and still are to this day as far as I know, unless it's a boutique/fantasy kind of custom build. Even a very small handful of Martins that they made were arched tops, but still had the O-shaped soundhole rather than the F-holes of most archtops. The design itself wouldn't be as practical to have 12-strings on a standard archtop design.

This also gets into the purpose behind these designs, which was much more on a design for a purpose mindset at least up to the 50's. The archtop acoustics were most often used by big band and orchestra rhythm players, guys like Freddie Green with Basie who would hit the 4-chord-per-bar rhythm with the rhythm section rather than play leads. The lead players starting with Charlie Christian were amplified starting in the late 30's, almost like a separate instrument and purpose. Those archtops had a certain response and frequency range that is pretty unique, as heard on a few PS tracks featuring one.

The flattop "folk" acoustic 12-strings had a different sound and purpose than those archtops, I'd say up to the 50's the guitar itself was still considered a bit of a novelty except in some folk and blues circles. Then when folk became "pop", and snowballed into folk-rock, the game changed. But the 12-string acoustics depending on the model could have a boomy and loud sound as they were built to play unamplified on stage, and had to project a certain way that the big-band archtops did not. But if they were mic'ed and recorded a certain way, as simple as positioning the mic a specific way, the "boom" could be replaced by the percussive string sound and vice versa.

It's kind of a throwback to see the session guys in the 60's playing rock/pop dates with those old 30's style archtops, I think the jazz-centric guys all had them from the days of using an archtop for a rhythm gig, but even in the 60's the archtop acoustics were all but fading out from regular use because everything popular was electric, including jazz guitar. The jazz rhythm players would rarely if ever do a big band job with a folk-style acoustic, so it fits in to have Tedesco, Kessel, Bob Bain, etc showing up with a 30's Gibson for "rhythm dates" even though they were even then a bit old-fashioned as everyday guitars. But they recorded great!

[c-man]

I've read in The Wrecking Crew book that Brian called one of the guitar players (was it Glen Campbell?) up for a session, called one of the biggest music shops in LA (which was not open) to bring him a Fender twelve string and a big Fender amp. At the end of the session, Brian told him that he could keep all the gear and bring it to his house...

Nice!!

Yeah - that was Billy Strange on the "Sloop John B." overdub.

[guitarfool2002]

I've read in The Wrecking Crew book that Brian called one of the guitar players (was it Glen Campbell?) up for a session, called one of the biggest music shops in LA (which was not open) to bring him a Fender twelve string and a big Fender amp. At the end of the session, Brian told him that he could keep all the gear and bring it to his house...

Nice!!

That was Billy Strange, one of the classic studio tales of the 60's. Billy tells the whole thing in the PS Sessions booklet, but basically Brian called Billy on a Sunday when he was off and had visitation with his kids, and asked him to come to the studio to see if he could add something to the track which was Sloop John B. Billy didn't have access to his guitars, so Brian called the owner of Wallichs Music City, Glen Wallichs, at home, they opened up the store, and someone delivered a brand new Fender Twin amp and Electric XII guitar to Western. Billy played the part, which amounted to not much more than one section of music, Brian gave him 500 cash and told him "don't forget your guitar and amp", and gave him the Fenders.

[c-man]

Thanks, guitarfool2000...one more PS guitar-related thing: to me, the acoustic rhythm guitar on "Let's Go Away For Awhile" sounds too "bright" to be an f-hole archtop - especially when you compare it to the obvious archtop acoustic sound on "Wouldn't It Be Nice" and the instrumental "Pet Sounds". I realize the archtop was Barney's go-to acoustic, but I'm sure he could've pulled out a round-hole dreadnaught if required, right?

[guitarfool2002]

Overlapping posts!  

[guitarfool2002]

Thanks, guitarfool2000...one more PS guitar-related thing: to me, the acoustic rhythm guitar on "Let's Go Away For Awhile" sounds too "bright" to be an f-hole archtop - especially when you compare it to the obvious archtop acoustic sound on "Wouldn't It Be Nice" and the instrumental "Pet Sounds". I realize the archtop was Barney's go-to acoustic, but I'm sure he could've pulled out a round-hole dreadnaught if required, right?

He would have had one available for sure, but from what I was told Barney would usually use that Gibson archtop for rhythm dates, in fact when he was doing "pop" sessions in the 60's I also heard he considered those chord-rhythm sessions an easy-money gig. Tommy Tedesco can be seen playing what looks like a Stromberg or D'Angelico archtop in his photo from the PS sessions booklet, I think he used them too for these specific dates even though he had a full arsenal of acoustics and other guitars available.

I'm just guessing but from a lot of the photos and other "evidence", it seems like the old-school guys still preferred the archtops for straight ahead chord-rhythm sessions, unless it was specifically for a country or folk sound...I think there was still a definite separation between styles and genres for which instruments to use on which dates, and what makes it confusing is that the exact time in the 60's we're discussing is when all the lines were in the process of blurring together.

I think a lot of the sound and frequency response came from how it was mic'ed and also the guitar itself, even the type of strings they had on certain guitars could affect the sound drastically when it was mic'ed up. For Pet Sounds, I'd have to lean toward the probability that if Barney (or Tommy) was playing an acoustic rhythm part, it would have been the archtop unless another sound was specifically requested.

[job]

What about FGHNFB and RTSGJO?

[c-man]

Thanks, guitarfool2000...one more PS guitar-related thing: to me, the acoustic rhythm guitar on "Let's Go Away For Awhile" sounds too "bright" to be an f-hole archtop - especially when you compare it to the obvious archtop acoustic sound on "Wouldn't It Be Nice" and the instrumental "Pet Sounds". I realize the archtop was Barney's go-to acoustic, but I'm sure he could've pulled out a round-hole dreadnaught if required, right?

He would have had one available for sure, but from what I was told Barney would usually use that Gibson archtop for rhythm dates, in fact when he was doing "pop" sessions in the 60's I also heard he considered those chord-rhythm sessions an easy-money gig. Tommy Tedesco can be seen playing what looks like a Stromberg or D'Angelico archtop in his photo from the PS sessions booklet, I think he used them too for these specific dates even though he had a full arsenal of acoustics and other guitars available.

I'm just guessing but from a lot of the photos and other "evidence", it seems like the old-school guys still preferred the archtops for straight ahead chord-rhythm sessions, unless it was specifically for a country or folk sound...I think there was still a definite separation between styles and genres for which instruments to use on which dates, and what makes it confusing is that the exact time in the 60's we're discussing is when all the lines were in the process of blurring together.

I think a lot of the sound and frequency response came from how it was mic'ed and also the guitar itself, even the type of strings they had on certain guitars could affect the sound drastically when it was mic'ed up. For Pet Sounds, I'd have to lean toward the probability that if Barney (or Tommy) was playing an acoustic rhythm part, it would have been the archtop unless another sound was specifically requested.

OK, I just listened again, and I think you're right...f-hole archtop acoustic n the rhythm part of "LGAFA".

[donald]

Enjoying following this discussion.  Been once again rediscovering the layers of PS and have been working on a solo acoustic version of Caroline No.  Those chord shapes and plucking specific groups of strings is quite a challenge.

As for identifying which instruments are being played at a given point on any of the PS tracks, I have a hard time distinguishing except where it is obvious..and those moments seem to be few on this album.  I think part of the reason this album is endlessly listenable is because the brain doesn't tire of hearing the melody as there are so many nuances and layers of sound that continue to challenge the careful  listener.

[metal flake paint]

Enjoying following this discussion.  Been once again rediscovering the layers of PS and have been working on a solo acoustic version of Caroline No.  Those chord shapes and plucking specific groups of strings is quite a challenge.

Good luck with that. You reminded me of the beautiful acoustic guitar version Carl performed at Syracuse University, May 11 1971.

[c-man]

Enjoying following this discussion.  Been once again rediscovering the layers of PS and have been working on a solo acoustic version of Caroline No.  Those chord shapes and plucking specific groups of strings is quite a challenge.

Good luck with that. You reminded me of the beautiful acoustic guitar version Carl performed at Syracuse University, May 11 1971.

Yes, that one's neat - IIRC, the only other instrumentation on that live version is a bass (probably Bruce) and a flute (probably Joel Peskin).

[John Stivaktas]

That was Billy Strange, one of the classic studio tales of the 60's. Billy tells the whole thing in the PS Sessions booklet, but basically Brian called Billy on a Sunday when he was off and had visitation with his kids, and asked him to come to the studio to see if he could add something to the track which was Sloop John B. Billy didn't have access to his guitars, so Brian called the owner of Wallichs Music City, Glen Wallichs, at home, they opened up the store, and someone delivered a brand new Fender Twin amp and Electric XII guitar to Western. Billy played the part, which amounted to not much more than one section of music, Brian gave him 500 cash and told him "don't forget your guitar and amp", and gave him the Fenders.

"Don't forget your guitar and amp"? Both instrument and amp today will go for up to $US10000 combined. Man, I wish I was Billy Strange! Also, it is easy to forget the method of production used by Brian for making this album which is counter to how albums have been made since. Those hours of rehearsal time were used to balance the sound of the many musicians in the studios mainly, with the added bonus that during these rehearsals some unintended 'mistakes' became part of the arrangement of the song. Many session tracks on Pet Sounds allude to this.

[guitarfool2002]

That was Billy Strange, one of the classic studio tales of the 60's. Billy tells the whole thing in the PS Sessions booklet, but basically Brian called Billy on a Sunday when he was off and had visitation with his kids, and asked him to come to the studio to see if he could add something to the track which was Sloop John B. Billy didn't have access to his guitars, so Brian called the owner of Wallichs Music City, Glen Wallichs, at home, they opened up the store, and someone delivered a brand new Fender Twin amp and Electric XII guitar to Western. Billy played the part, which amounted to not much more than one section of music, Brian gave him 500 cash and told him "don't forget your guitar and amp", and gave him the Fenders.

"Don't forget your guitar and amp"? Both instrument and amp today will go for up to $US10000 combined. Man, I wish I was Billy Strange! Also, it is easy to forget the method of production used by Brian for making this album which is counter to how albums have been made since. Those hours of rehearsal time were used to balance the sound of the many musicians in the studios mainly, with the added bonus that during these rehearsals some unintended 'mistakes' became part of the arrangement of the song. Many session tracks on Pet Sounds allude to this.

I had a few online exchanges with Billy Strange about 8-10 years ago, when he would sometimes field questions via his website and email/messages. I should have asked him more about working with Brian at this time, but instead I asked a few things about his early-50's work with Speedy West and Jimmy Bryant, since Billy was playing rhythm guitar for them at that time. I figured his stories with Brian were already told via the PS booklet and other interviews, and with Billy's career overall he did so many classic sessions, where do you start? So I went with a more obscure topic, and he answered! Very cool.

Another aspect of Brian's work with these players especially in '66 when it seems he had fully learned the game as it were involved his generosity toward the musicians he had hired for these dates. They were not "easy" dates, not like the norm, and they involved usually a roomful of musicians having to read and develop some intricate arrangements that were sometimes happening on the fly.

This one aspect may separate Brian's methods from Spector's, whom Brian in many ways modeled his working methods as a producer from watching Spector work as early as 1963. Spector seemed to thrive on pushing the musicians into exhaustion and frustration, doing take after take and basically tiring them out, physically and mentally, to the point where I think Spector thought it captured a certain "edge" in the performances that you can actually hear in some of his classic productions. There is an edgy feel to some of those tracks, the Wall Of Sound did have an aggressive quality even though a lot of the material was teenage love songs or related topics.

I think with Pet Sounds, Brian may have pushed the musicians but you get a sweeter quality to those instrumental performances. They weren't aggressive as Spector, but that also complimented the lyrical subject matter in the songs perfectly. You might not have the full quality of any given sweet or reflective song on Pet Sounds with more aggression added to the playing.

So Brian had a habit of working up to the last minute of the allotted time for a session to get the take. And if he did not get it, he'd have no problem going into overtime, which for the union musicians meant getting above their scale payment rate as soon as the clock ticked beyond the scheduled end time for the session.

But Brian went one step further, and he borrowed this practice from some of the old-school artists and producers...he would often deliberately go overtime to give the musicians a bonus payment for their efforts on his music. If the session was 2-to-5, and he had the right take on tape at 4:45, he would deliberately have them run a few more to take them into overtime payment, which could be having a take run to 5:05, and give them the extra hour overtime in their check. The musicians loved this, and it also garnered a loyalty of sorts so when they got a call to do a Brian Wilson session over other less generous producers, Brian would get the guys he wanted to play as first-call. And unlike what some thought of Spector's methods, to the point where some very famous names simply refused to take dates for Spector sessions, Brian had a pretty loyal group available to book to play his dates. That's not saying Spector did not perhaps do the same things at various times, but the working methods were slightly different in how they got the results on the final take, and you can hear the differences, as subtle as they are.

And you can hear numerous times on the session tapes one of the musicians saying they were about to go into overtime during the recording process. That's just one thing Brian did for the musicians, above the norm, similar to thanking Billy Strange for taking time out from his Sunday off with his kids to make a trip to the studio to play a session by giving him that equipment and the extra cash bonus for his work.