Any of you audio isolation experts able to isolate the guitars on IKTAA?

[guitarfool2002]

Two more quick points:

Jerry Cole claims he owned the first Fender Bass VI.

California Girls: Wolf Marshall is one of the best if not the best at his trade, I have nothing but respect for him and his work. He was also a protege of Howard Roberts, he's heard all the stories and more firsthand, and I believe he even owns the original heavily customized "black guitar" which Howard used on hundreds of sessions. He's awesome, I got a lot of great info and tips from him.

But on California Girls, isn't that the session tape where we hear Carl messing up on 12-string take after take, to the point where Brian starts poking fun at him for all the "bloopers" coming from the booth? That alone would say it was at least Carl on 12-string, I'd need to listen again to confirm the other player...but definitely Carl, and it would probably be on his Rickenbacker 12. Again, that's from memory, so please correct revise if necessary.

But it's definitely a 12 string, I think Wolf may have been mistaken.

(PS Wolf Marshall was the first I can think of to reveal and demonstrate that Lennon's unusual acoustic sound on songs like Across The Universe was because Lennon strung that J-160E with flatwounds for at least that time period. That nailed it.    )

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

And to be fair, was Wolf working from the mono masters when transcribing that?  That would be impossible for anybody to get right.  The only reason I can comfortably say it's (at least) two 12-strings is from constant listening to the complete session tape.  And even then it takes very hardcore listening, trying to make clear what is intentionally made unclear in the mix by reverb.

[guitarfool2002]

The bass breaks on "Here Today", would we agree that is primarily a Fender?

Yes.

If so, we could get my Danelectro baritone to sound the same way, with the pick and the outboard effects applied. Most ears wouldn't know the difference. Which is where a thicker arrangement like those on Pet Sounds can be tricky to make a positive ID from just the final mono mixes.

I agree 100%, the most educational and informative things to hear are when the players are noodling between takes on the session tapes, when available. You hear exactly what they're doing and often can spot what instruments they're playing. That is the only way I heard the "missing 16th note" just at the end of the WIBN intro that even the stage bands more often missed.

What is this missing 16th note?  On the lower guitar you mean?  Maybe I've missed it all these years too?

Picture the phrase, it's all swing 8th notes for three bars. Then in the 4th bar, it's 4 eighth notes on beats 1 and 2, then beat 3 is two 16ths on the same note C followed by an 8th, then two 8th notes to lead into the next section.

It gets buried in the mix, totally obscured. You hear it when it's being rehearsed between takes.

The notes of that last bar, last two beats are  CC D E C, the first two C's are the missing 16ths. Played on the G string, 17th fret, third finger the way I worked it out to sound most authentic.

[Dunderhead]

https://soundcloud.com/donnylang

These sound dead on to me, especially CG.

[Dunderhead]

I know this is totally off-topic, but have any of you guys given this much thought to the guitar set-ups used on Younger Than Yesterday? That album has some of the best sounding guitar work of any studio-era recording that I've heard and I'd love to hear this kind of insightful discussion about it.

[c-man]

And to be fair, was Wolf working from the mono masters when transcribing that?  That would be impossible for anybody to get right.  The only reason I can comfortably say it's (at least) two 12-strings is from constant listening to the complete session tape.  And even then it takes very hardcore listening, trying to make clear what is intentionally made unclear in the mix by reverb.

Well, that's what I thought too, just wanted to confirm it.  Carl DOES play the main 12-string (Brian has said it was the Ric), and I just needed confirmation that the second guitar in the intro riff was also a 12 (it was Jerry Cole, and Howard Roberts played 6-string rhythm...wonder if Wolf knows that?). 

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I've got to go back and listen to some of these sessions again.  Whew.

And one of these days, the rest of the photos from this session, be it WIBN or IJWMFTT, will turn up:



If you provide me with said photos, and they include shots of musicians on the floor I will paypal several hundred dollars to you, and I say that in all seriousness.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

In that photo above, does it look to anybody else like that Sennheiser 421 is on an Leslie cabinet?  That would make WIBN or IJWMFTT unlikely...  Perhaps it's a GV session?

Click here for a larger version:  http://static.tumblr.com/sqtfagl/pdJm3guup/tbb_brian_in_studio_1966.jpg

[guitarfool2002]

I've got to go back and listen to some of these sessions again.  Whew.

Did you hear the missing 16th note on WIBN?

[guitarfool2002]

And to be fair, was Wolf working from the mono masters when transcribing that?  That would be impossible for anybody to get right.  The only reason I can comfortably say it's (at least) two 12-strings is from constant listening to the complete session tape.  And even then it takes very hardcore listening, trying to make clear what is intentionally made unclear in the mix by reverb.

Well, that's what I thought too, just wanted to confirm it.  Carl DOES play the main 12-string (Brian has said it was the Ric), and I just needed confirmation that the second guitar in the intro riff was also a 12 (it was Jerry Cole, and Howard Roberts played 6-string rhythm...wonder if Wolf knows that?).  

Maybe Wolf got his CG info from Howard Roberts, Roberts might have said he played 6-string on the session, Wolf put 2 and 2 together assuming Howard played the intro, and it came up 4, only it wasn't four. (That's from a movie somewhere...)

If he had the session tape he obviously wouldn't have written that, Carl and his 12-string bloopers are on take after take.  

EDIT: The film quote is William Holden from Stalag 17, just for the record...

[DonnyL]

I've got to go back and listen to some of these sessions again.  Whew.

And one of these days, the rest of the photos from this session, be it WIBN or IJWMFTT, will turn up:



If you provide me with said photos, and they include shots of musicians on the floor I will paypal several hundred dollars to you, and I say that in all seriousness.

That's a good catch; it does look like one. Strange choice though ... I would never have guessed. Might possibly be some variant of a Sony condenser? The only thing puzzling me is that they were usually that weird light green color, this one looks like it's darker, like a grey/silver.

[DonnyL]

https://soundcloud.com/donnylang

These sound dead on to me, especially CG.

I know this is totally off-topic, but have any of you guys given this much thought to the guitar set-ups used on Younger Than Yesterday? That album has some of the best sounding guitar work of any studio-era recording that I've heard and I'd love to hear this kind of insightful discussion about it.

Thank you ... sorry, can't help with the Byrds stuff !

[DonnyL]

And to be fair, was Wolf working from the mono masters when transcribing that?  That would be impossible for anybody to get right.  The only reason I can comfortably say it's (at least) two 12-strings is from constant listening to the complete session tape.  And even then it takes very hardcore listening, trying to make clear what is intentionally made unclear in the mix by reverb.

Well, that's what I thought too, just wanted to confirm it.  Carl DOES play the main 12-string (Brian has said it was the Ric), and I just needed confirmation that the second guitar in the intro riff was also a 12 (it was Jerry Cole, and Howard Roberts played 6-string rhythm...wonder if Wolf knows that?). 

The 'CA Girls' session was in April, right? I always thought maybe Carl used that prototype Fender XII he was playing on stage around that time, but if BW specifically remembers a Ric, I think his memory is usually pretty good with that stuff.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I've got to go back and listen to some of these sessions again.  Whew.

Did you hear the missing 16th note on WIBN?

Not on the final take, but in the noodling, occasionally, yes.    Jerry fucks around with it so much...  God, I've listened to this session so much.  It's almost like a weird nightmare.  But I love it none the less.  I'm not convinced...  

[guitarfool2002]

If that is Gold Star, I got the impression from either a Stan Ross or Larry Levine interview that they didn't use to many exotic mics besides what the standards would have been...I don't know why but I got the impression that Gold Star wouldn't use a Sennheiser for mic'ing the rotary horn of a Leslie, but instead would use a Shure or EV dynamic instead.

Of course, if the photo does indeed show that to be a 421, there's all the proof we need. I seriously can't tell, the detail is so grainy.

[guitarfool2002]

I've got to go back and listen to some of these sessions again.  Whew.

Did you hear the missing 16th note on WIBN?

Not on the final take, but in the noodling, occasionally, yes.    Jerry f***s around with it so much...  God, I've listened to this session so much.  It's almost like a weird nightmare.  But I love it none the less.  I'm not convinced...  

Oh, it's in there. Just like that old pasta sauce commercial used to say, "it's in there". I can't hear the song without hearing that note at this point, I've also listened to that session many times over, an obsession.

[Dunderhead]

How many other pictures are there of that session? I know there's at least one more of Brian wearing that outfit standing in front of a reel-to-reel tape machine or something.



That is Gold Star.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

If that is Gold Star, I got the impression from either a Stan Ross or Larry Levine interview that they didn't use to many exotic mics besides what the standards would have been...I don't know why but I got the impression that Gold Star wouldn't use a Sennheiser for mic'ing the rotary horn of a Leslie, but instead would use a Shure or EV dynamic instead.

Of course, if the photo does indeed show that to be a 421, there's all the proof we need. I seriously can't tell, the detail is so grainy.

I've got to go back and listen to some of these sessions again.  Whew.

And one of these days, the rest of the photos from this session, be it WIBN or IJWMFTT, will turn up:



If you provide me with said photos, and they include shots of musicians on the floor I will paypal several hundred dollars to you, and I say that in all seriousness.

That's a good catch; it does look like one. Strange choice though ... I would never have guessed. Might possibly be some variant of a Sony condenser? The only thing puzzling me is that they were usually that weird light green color, this one looks like it's darker, like a grey/silver.

It's Gold Star alright, which definitely did have a Sennheiser 421 by then.  See, for instance:

[guitarfool2002]

If you go to even the first YouTube WIBN stereo backing track that comes up, the "missing" double note is there, seriously. Like those paintings you squint to see the hidden image, just tune into it a different way and you'll hear it, guaranteed.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

This is supposedly from Gold Star, also:

[guitarfool2002]

If they had the 421 there in '66, the photo does seem to show one on that Leslie cab, so I'll agree that's sure what it looks like in the photo.

[Dunderhead]

How long would Brian have really worn those glasses for? There is an interview where he says they were fake, or just for fun. He wears them in shots from a vocal session too, do we know when/what that date was for? Is there any possibility those are from the same day or something? Just knowing Brian and all...

[guitarfool2002]

How long would Brian have really worn those glasses for? There is an interview where he says they were fake, or just for fun. He wears them in shots from a vocal session too, do we know when/what that date was for? Is there any possibility those are from the same day or something? Just knowing Brian and all...

If I remember the glasses are seen during various Pet Sounds studio photos, I don't remember seeing him with them on too much after that, if at all.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

If you go to even the first YouTube WIBN stereo backing track that comes up, the "missing" double note is there, seriously. Like those paintings you squint to see the hidden image, just tune into it a different way and you'll hear it, guaranteed.

So this is beat three of the last intro measure in the higher guitar?  So: Drum Hit on the one, two, then right on three is what we're talking about?  Or more accurately, the "e" of three.  As in, "Three-e-and-a Four-e-and-a"?

[Dunderhead]

These are the only other photos I can think of where he's wearing them. (Could be totally wrong though)