Any of you audio isolation experts able to isolate the guitars on IKTAA?

[DonnyL]

great work man!

- Sloop -- I think worth mentioning is that we have a confirmed guitar model on this one (Billy Strange playing the Fender Electric XII), one of the only instances where we can say fairly certainly what the model is. Since it was one of the early tracks, there is a possibility that he used it on other tracks on the album as well. My best guess for the other electric 12-strings would be Gibson ES-335-12 or the similar Epiphone model, unless Carl was playing, in which case it would most likely be the Ric (as you noted).

No guess on the acoustic in there. I suppose I always kind of assumed there was one in there, but I can't hear it.

Don't think there is anything more than a Fender bass on this one. Notice the lack of low-end on the last chorus. If a string bass were present, I feel like we would hear a lot more deepness. Don't hear a Dano in there.

- GOK -- My theory on the basses here is that there is a string bass doubling the Fender bass.  Don't hear a baritone in here either.

- Here Today -- Not that you mentioned in either way, but I think the bass (played high like a baritone) is a Fender bass, not a Dano. Danos sound thin/weedy/phasey.

- Caroline -- I hear the Dano 6-str. bass in there ... no ?

One of these days I'm going to have to get around to trying to put together something on all of the keyboards used through the '60s-'70s. I know I've mentioned this before, but it's a real challenge!

Well, there's definitely String Bass on every Pet Sounds track except for That's Not Me.  Usually just doubling the Fender.  Lyle's on the Sheets and you can hear him prominently between takes on both Sloop John and GOK.  Berghoffer is on IJWMFTT.  There's no question about that.  I do wonder about second electric basses on GOK, IWFTD, and Sloop in particular.  I agree that Here Today is a Fender.  I suspect IJWMFTT is too.  Caroline No definitely sounds like a dano, though it's overdubbed.  That's Not me might also be two danos or a Fender and a Dano.

what is the string bass doing in 'Sloop'? doubling the Fender? I can't hear it like I can on the others.

[DonnyL]

It is interesting how little photography of 12-string electrics have turned up.  I mean, there's never enough 60s studio photography for me, but we do have some great photos of Barney with his Tele, Pitman with his Dano, Tedesco with his stuff.  There is the one photo of Tedesco with the Bellzouki, I suppose.  We do know that Jan Berry called for that specific guitar on TAAACSCBRATA, so that could be a clue.  Then there's the photos of the Mosrites I mentioned.  Would somebody have a look at that photo in the wrecking crew thread and see if you agree Billy's playing a Mosrite?

But I've never seen a studio photo of a WC guitarist playing a Fender XII.

I saw the mid-60's Fender hardshell bass case at Billy's feet first! That guitar, though...I can't tell, can't even venture a guess (pun). If the headstock is any indication it could be a Mosrite, I just can't tell.

The Fender XII info is anecdotal/circumstantial. Two of the most famous 12-stringers not named George Harrison: I know Jimmy Page used one on studio sessions and later on his own Led Zep tracks (not the more famous Gibson doubleneck), I know McGuinn had and used the Fender occasionally in the studio despite being known for the Rick 12, and I've heard the Fenders were simply more reliable 12-string electric guitars although a bit more expensive. As far as photo evidence, there is none I can think of - it's all interview and anecdotal stuff.

lotsa people used them. Tim Buckley, Velvet Underground, Dave Davies. The Fender XII doesn't have the traditional 'classic' 12 string sound. It sounds more swirly, almost organ/harpsichord like. To me, it sounds like 'pet sounds', but I don't know if that's just because of the 'light'/direct way in which the guitars were recorded, as opposed to the 'jingle jangle' thing everyone else was doing.

[guitarfool2002]

what exactly is latency?

It's an annoying delay that can happen when recording digitally. What you are playing and hearing in real time can get out of sync with the signal you're hearing from the digital, all that A/D conversion crap that gets in the way of creating music, you know... It can get worse as your processor works harder and starts slowing down.

[DonnyL]

what exactly is latency?

It's an annoying delay that can happen when recording digitally. What you are playing and hearing in real time can get out of sync with the signal you're hearing from the digital, all that A/D conversion crap that gets in the way of creating music, you know... It can get worse as your processor works harder and starts slowing down.

oh ok, I've never recorded digitally (only transferred final mixes to digital), so I have never experienced it.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

what exactly is latency?

It's an annoying delay that can happen when recording digitally. What you are playing and hearing in real time can get out of sync with the signal you're hearing from the digital, all that A/D conversion crap that gets in the way of creating music, you know... It can get worse as your processor works harder and starts slowing down.

oh ok, I've never recorded digitally (only transferred final mixes to digital), so I have never experienced it.

I wouldn't usually record so digitally but I wanted to get the example up quickly to have something more to talk about tonight.

As for Sloop, yes, it's just a straight up double of Carol the whole time. 

Here's the photo:



Billy's headstock looks really Mosrite-y to me.

I might just have to put some of these student loans I've got toward an electric 12-string.  If you're from the government and reading this, I'm just joking...  Heh heh...

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Too bad all the amp mics are obscured in the photo. 

[guitarfool2002]

Was going to make this a separate post a few weeks ago, didn't do it, figured this would be a better place to ask:

Where did the notion that so many guitars were recorded "direct" into the board for Pet Sounds originate?

I ask because a more common practice would be to have the musicians in the booth but the amps placed elsewhere. Not only common, I'd say, but standard practice up to and including today when re-amping is not done.

So when I hear some of those PS electric guitar parts, I hear spacious reverb too. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but at the studios PS was recorded there was most often a single chamber where you could send a signal from the board into the chamber then back again to blend. So if you had multiple guitars, were they sub-mixing them into one signal to send to the chambers for the effect, or was the reverb coming from their amps instead, which could have been anywhere from a hallway to a closet to isolated behind some baffles or gobos on the floor? And, of course, all the photos of the standard setups of the 60's where the players sat right in front of their amps perched on a chair or something.

I'm just wondering why it's not as common to assume they were playing through amps on PS as it seems to be to assume they were going direct into the board.

[DonnyL]

It's a Mosrite for sure (or at least a Mosrite neck). I don't think it's a 12-string though.

[guitarfool2002]

Too bad all the amp mics are obscured in the photo. 

Look at the one behind Tommy: You can see just enough to pick out the kind of Cannon plug that would go into the EV666. It has that little cone-shaped black rubber piece just before the cable goes into the plug. If I didn't have one I never would have spotted that on any of the photos.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Was going to make this a separate post a few weeks ago, didn't do it, figured this would be a better place to ask:

Where did the notion that so many guitars were recorded "direct" into the board for Pet Sounds originate?

I ask because a more common practice would be to have the musicians in the booth but the amps placed elsewhere. Not only common, I'd say, but standard practice up to and including today when re-amping is not done.

So when I hear some of those PS electric guitar parts, I hear spacious reverb too. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but at the studios PS was recorded there was most often a single chamber where you could send a signal from the board into the chamber then back again to blend. So if you had multiple guitars, were they sub-mixing them into one signal to send to the chambers for the effect, or was the reverb coming from their amps instead, which could have been anywhere from a hallway to a closet to isolated behind some baffles or gobos on the floor? And, of course, all the photos of the standard setups of the 60's where the players sat right in front of their amps perched on a chair or something.

I'm just wondering why it's not as common to assume they were playing through amps on PS as it seems to be to assume they were going direct into the board.

To my ear it usually sounds like chamber reverb to me.  Additionally, to my ear it usually sounds direct.  The only thing we know for sure was direct in terms of direct evidence is WIBN.  Hal had to have the headphones and nobody else in the studio could hear the guitars.

I've just taken that sound as the prime example and compared it to other sessions.  There's some where it could go either way.  Sometimes you have to listen for what happens when the talkback is hit.  

I think the majority of the 12-string electrics were recorded direct.  Maybe Brian just liked the sound of them at the time?  It is interesting that that has been assumed, but to me it's just because the other ones sound like WIBN.

[guitarfool2002]

The army green one is the 666 with that odd plug...and this is a stock web photo to show the example, not my own EV collection.   Sad to report my own similar cable for the EV666 might need some troubleshooting and repair. Probably a loose solder.

[DonnyL]

Was going to make this a separate post a few weeks ago, didn't do it, figured this would be a better place to ask:

Where did the notion that so many guitars were recorded "direct" into the board for Pet Sounds originate?

I ask because a more common practice would be to have the musicians in the booth but the amps placed elsewhere. Not only common, I'd say, but standard practice up to and including today when re-amping is not done.

So when I hear some of those PS electric guitar parts, I hear spacious reverb too. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but at the studios PS was recorded there was most often a single chamber where you could send a signal from the board into the chamber then back again to blend. So if you had multiple guitars, were they sub-mixing them into one signal to send to the chambers for the effect, or was the reverb coming from their amps instead, which could have been anywhere from a hallway to a closet to isolated behind some baffles or gobos on the floor? And, of course, all the photos of the standard setups of the 60's where the players sat right in front of their amps perched on a chair or something.

I'm just wondering why it's not as common to assume they were playing through amps on PS as it seems to be to assume they were going direct into the board.

I think some of them are direct and some are amp. I believe most everything was sent to the chamber, and some was printed to the multi-track during recording as well. The notion probably comes from seeing photos of Carl playing in the booth, interviews and the clean sound maybe.

The boards were maybe 12 input? They probably used some of the portable Ampex (or later, Shure) mic mixers or homebrew stuff for extra channels going into the board. I know a lot of studios did this. In fact, Bob Ohlsson from Motown has mentioned on some message boards that someone he worked for told him that Britz recorded lots of Beach Boys vocals through the Ampex MX35 mixer, not the UA console. And that they sometimes sent the mic directly into a limiter (Fairchild?), bypassing the mic preamp. Not that it matters too much when any line input going into the board is sent through the mic preamps anyway !

[DonnyL]

The army green one is the 666 with that odd plug...and this is a stock web photo to show the example, not my own EV collection.   Sad to report my own similar cable for the EV666 might need some troubleshooting and repair. Probably a loose solder.

This photo shows a 664, 666, RE-15 and RE-20 (in order). The 666 shows up all over the place in the '60s photos, but the RE-15 didn't come out until '67, and the RE-20 maybe '69? The RE-20 is actually the next generation of mics in the 666 lineage.  664 was a lower-end budget mic ... they don't sound very good in my opinion (at least, I've never met one I liked!)

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I love the RE-15.  I have one and use it all the time.  I have a cord for the 666 but haven't got around to getting myself one yet.

I think part of the difficulty in determining when they're going direct is that they'd still send the mic input from an amp to the chamber, as Donny said, so you rarely hear JUST amp reverb, which I feel like we could easily pick out.  Sometimes you can just hear that no speaker cone is vibrating.  Very interesting, though.

[guitarfool2002]

I'm the same way on the 664, I've had chances to buy them but never did because they don't have much of a presence or character, where the 666 is amazing on a guitar amp (IMO). The 664 is what they used to use in school assemblies and to announce lineups in little league baseball games! I do have an EV630 which came from that kind of scene, too, I bought it on a little table stand like a school principal would use to make morning announcements...

Didn't movie and TV prop houses use certain model EV mics to make ray guns and alien weapons for sci-films of the 50's and 60's? I heard that somewhere.

[guitarfool2002]

I have a cord for the 666 but haven't got around to getting myself one yet.

I have a perfectly working 666 mic but a dodgy semi-working cord, where you have the cord but not the mic. It seems we're on opposite sides of the equation here. 

[NHC]

I'm not saying this is true for all the tracks, obviously, but in a few cases there really is a "strumming" guitar playing the traditional role of an archtop acoustic in a jazz band, but it got buried in the mix, especially in mono. In some cases it's all but inaudible but is still there.

It's a similar thing that happened on many, many big band jazz recordings and performances - the acoustic archtop strumming got buried unless the rhythm section got featured on a chorus, or unless it was Count Basie's band where the absolute master of that style Freddie Green played within the arrangements so well that you could hear his part - somehow - despite the rest of the band. How many 30's/40's/50's big band recordings are there where you can actually hear that rhythm guitar? Yet almost every dance band had one.

There is that one BW example I mentioned on Donny L's question about percussion on the title track, where in one of the breakdowns of that song you can hear a very faint acoustic guitar strumming away, in typical jazz band fashion. That guitar was playing almost the whole time, but it's all but lost in the band.  In the final mix you can feel those parts more that actually hear them.

That's a good point about the guitars in a Big Band or jazz ensemble.  Always there, seldom heard unless they have a short solo or as part of a featured section.  I always wondered if they got bored or felt under-used and under-appreciated, as in "why am I even here?" And yes, that's a great way to describe it - feel rather than  hear it in the arrangement - makes you wonder how you would hear the song if the guitar weren't there. 

[DonnyL]

I'm the same way on the 664, I've had chances to buy them but never did because they don't have much of a presence or character, where the 666 is amazing on a guitar amp (IMO). The 664 is what they used to use in school assemblies and to announce lineups in little league baseball games! I do have an EV630 which came from that kind of scene, too, I bought it on a little table stand like a school principal would use to make morning announcements...

Didn't movie and TV prop houses use certain model EV mics to make ray guns and alien weapons for sci-films of the 50's and 60's? I heard that somewhere.

Every 664 I've ever had sounded tinny and weird. But some people have used them to good effect, so maybe I got duds.

The 666 and RE-15 prices have gone kind of nutty compared to the other dynamic mics of the era, so I've kind of avoided them so far. I've got an arsenal of these kinds of mics, and my favorites are the EV 631a and Shure SM53, both fairly obscure. And of course the 545. The SM53 is kind of like Shure's version of the RE15, and about 1/3 of the cost.

[guitarfool2002]

I just wanted to say again, the demo of those two guitar parts is really close to the original if not spot-on, and very cool, I'd suggest any guitarists or fans in general give it a listen. If I could get a copy of the transcription I'd definitely like to give it a spin on my 12-string.

[Sam_BFC]

Great reading here chaps.

aeijtzsche - in your quest to recreate the WIBN guitar tone, have you tried DI-ing a guitar into one of those Universal Audio Solo/610 preamps that are available these days?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I'm too poor to do that.  I own neither an electric 12 or a 610.  I wouldn't be surprised if the direct guitars avoided the 610 board, at least going in.  They needed the inputs, I'm sure, so they probably put the direct boxes into a smaller mixer, patched those into the chamber, and took the return in to the board.  But I certainly could be wrong there.

[guitarfool2002]

Thank you! I'll be giving it a try soon.

Re: The 610 and reissues of it...for economics and practical considerations, any tube preamp would come close enough to the sound and vibe for purposes like this, in fact some tube preamps which sell new for under 100 dollars (US) can be surprisingly good sound-wise.

Question: I've heard reports both ways, I want to clarify something. Were any of the studios where these various 12-string parts on Pet Sounds were recorded using any form of a limiting amplifier like the LA-2A, or any other types of outboard limiting or compression as the guitars were recorded either direct or through an external amp?

McGuinn's 12-string was run through at least two and perhaps even three outboard compressors to get the "Tambourine Man" jangle, in '65...if I wanted to take a stab at doing a soundalike demo for any of the PS 12-string electric guitar tracks, and I have an opto-compressor, should I use it?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Thank you! I'll be giving it a try soon.

Re: The 610 and reissues of it...for economics and practical considerations, any tube preamp would come close enough to the sound and vibe for purposes like this, in fact some tube preamps which sell new for under 100 dollars (US) can be surprisingly good sound-wise.

Question: I've heard reports both ways, I want to clarify something. Were any of the studios where these various 12-string parts on Pet Sounds were recorded using any form of a limiting amplifier like the LA-2A, or any other types of outboard limiting or compression as the guitars were recorded either direct or through an external amp?

McGuinn's 12-string was run through at least two and perhaps even three outboard compressors to get the "Tambourine Man" jangle, in '65...if I wanted to take a stab at doing a soundalike demo for any of the PS 12-string electric guitar tracks, and I have an opto-compressor, should I use it?

That should of course only read "8va" not "15ma".  Whoops.

As for the compressor, supposedly Gold Star wasn't really using anything like that for anything other than mastering until quite late, but who really knows?  They might have gotten some limiting across the buss, but I doubt they got anything on just the guitar inputs.

[DonnyL]

Great reading here chaps.

aeijtzsche - in your quest to recreate the WIBN guitar tone, have you tried DI-ing a guitar into one of those Universal Audio Solo/610 preamps that are available these days?

I've done it, but it doesn't sound close at all to me. The mic preamp in a channel of Scully 280 (tape machine) is the closest I've come so far

example here on the intro: http://magichero.bandcamp.com/

2nd closest is a Shure M67, which is also featured in this recording (the 12-string outro & playing throughout the song), which is a cheap little mic mixer you can pick up on eBay for a few bucks.

The UA 610 sounds great, but not right for this kind of direct sound. It gets into the territory for vocals and drums though.

[DonnyL]

Thank you! I'll be giving it a try soon.

Re: The 610 and reissues of it...for economics and practical considerations, any tube preamp would come close enough to the sound and vibe for purposes like this, in fact some tube preamps which sell new for under 100 dollars (US) can be surprisingly good sound-wise.

Question: I've heard reports both ways, I want to clarify something. Were any of the studios where these various 12-string parts on Pet Sounds were recorded using any form of a limiting amplifier like the LA-2A, or any other types of outboard limiting or compression as the guitars were recorded either direct or through an external amp?

McGuinn's 12-string was run through at least two and perhaps even three outboard compressors to get the "Tambourine Man" jangle, in '65...if I wanted to take a stab at doing a soundalike demo for any of the PS 12-string electric guitar tracks, and I have an opto-compressor, should I use it?

seriously doubt any compressors were used on the guitars, only final mix (where it is fairly heavy in places -- you can hear a little pumping on some tracks on the original mixes from the Steve Hoffman masters). I think the compressors were UA 176 (precurser/tube version of the 1176).