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Author Topic: missed the boat?  (Read 22596 times)
alf wiedersehen
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« Reply #125 on: April 03, 2014, 06:06:19 PM »

"Has Mike Ever Expressed Remorse Over Whatever Role He May Have Played in Smile's Demise?"

Has a nice ring to it.
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« Reply #126 on: April 03, 2014, 06:16:56 PM »

I think it is possible that when you give a thread that title, you think Mike was largely or wholly responsible for the so-called demise of Smile. Then, when called out for that, an old thread is dug up where a new opinion is stated that the "demise" of Smile caused Brian's so-called breakdown, which actually started back in 1964. It's the old canard that Mike drove Brian crazy and is the reason he wound up  with mental problems that lasted for decades.
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« Reply #127 on: April 03, 2014, 06:20:22 PM »



I honestly was wondering what the answer was to that question when the question popped into my head - so I ask you the honest question: in what manner could I have entitled the thread that wouldn't be considered "leading"?

If there's a better title for that thread that's less "leading", let me know and I'll actually edit that thread's title.

Or is there no way to ask the question in any shape or form without it being considered "leading"? I really don't know that there is, but if there is I'm honestly all ears.

4 Separate threads now... 4!!!

I feel sorry for the moderators having to lock threads when there really should be no need.



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CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #128 on: April 03, 2014, 06:29:40 PM »

I have no problems with board members using the search function and posting in old threads. I would actually prefer they do that! as for the  "Has Mike Love ever taken a tiny bit of responsibility for SMILE's demise" thread.. Well that's a leading question and if not intended to inflame and incite debate over a well worn topic then it could of been asked 400 ways in different manner.

I honestly was wondering what the answer was to that question when the question popped into my head - so I ask you the honest question: in what manner could I have entitled the thread that wouldn't be considered "leading"?

If there's a better title for that thread that's less "leading", let me know and I'll actually edit that thread's title.

Or is there no way to ask the question in any shape or form without it being considered "leading"? I really don't know that there is, but if there is I'm honestly all ears.
You could search any number of threads that touch on the topic. Or you could title the thread "SMiLE's demise Why? What? How?"

A thread of that title which you suggest is very vague and general, don't you think?

Without saying that I outright should simply not ask the question, you're basically still saying that I should simply not ask the question - am I off base in saying that?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 06:31:46 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #129 on: April 03, 2014, 06:31:25 PM »

I think it is possible that when you give a thread that title, you think Mike was largely or wholly responsible for the so-called demise of Smile. Then, when called out for that, an old thread is dug up where a new opinion is stated that the "demise" of Smile caused Brian's so-called breakdown, which actually started back in 1964. It's the old canard that Mike drove Brian crazy and is the reason he wound up  with mental problems that lasted for decades.

KittyKat, just so you know my own views on the matter: I do not think that Mike was either largely or wholly responsible for the so-called demise of Smile. Honestly.
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CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #130 on: April 03, 2014, 06:35:16 PM »



I honestly was wondering what the answer was to that question when the question popped into my head - so I ask you the honest question: in what manner could I have entitled the thread that wouldn't be considered "leading"?

If there's a better title for that thread that's less "leading", let me know and I'll actually edit that thread's title.

Or is there no way to ask the question in any shape or form without it being considered "leading"? I really don't know that there is, but if there is I'm honestly all ears.

4 Separate threads now... 4!!!

I feel sorry for the moderators having to lock threads when there really should be no need.


I'm trying to find a way that I can communicate without pissing off people on here. I'll walk on eggshells if I have to, because I like discussion and exchange of ideas with knowledgeable people here. Sorry if my delicately worded response in actually trying to get feedback on what I can do to better not "incite" anger on here is simply annoying to you. I'm trying to have the cool head here.
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« Reply #131 on: April 03, 2014, 06:38:20 PM »



I honestly was wondering what the answer was to that question when the question popped into my head - so I ask you the honest question: in what manner could I have entitled the thread that wouldn't be considered "leading"?

If there's a better title for that thread that's less "leading", let me know and I'll actually edit that thread's title.

Or is there no way to ask the question in any shape or form without it being considered "leading"? I really don't know that there is, but if there is I'm honestly all ears.

4 Separate threads now... 4!!!

I feel sorry for the moderators having to lock threads when there really should be no need.





This board is turning into a festering cesspool. I'm quite frankly sick of people not treating each other with respect. Don't have to agree, but quit being pissants towards each other, for f***'s sake.

Quote
Pinder: One thing I'd like to clarify - I myself, awhile back, started the "Has Mike Love ever taken a shred of responsibility for SMILE's demise" thread for one reason. My intention wasn't to bash Mike. 

I asked because I didn't know the actual answer to the question, and I was curious to know the answer, and to further my understanding on the topic.  I do have my own opinions about the matter, just like you do - but my intention in starting that thread was because I was honestly curious if there was an interview, or even a tiny off the cuff public remark that I had missed along the way. No BS. That was the reason. You may not believe it, but I *want* to find real, legit reasons to like Mike more, and I truly desire for the public at large to gain a more balanced view of him. I think the Youtube haters are nuts.

I figured the people on this board could answer the question. Some fans here have been around for decades longer than me, so I figured if anyone would know, it would be people here.

It's a touchy topic, yes. And I've gained lots of knowledge about the topic on this board - and I've also gained a deeper understanding of nuances of the time due to various topics on this board.

In other words, my feelings about Mike have improved and have become more balanced over time as a result of reading intelligent conversation on this board.

Even if we still don't see eye to eye, I would think that you would be of the opinion that this is a good thing to have happened?

In an attempt to get back on a topic without people getting pissy...I think your last two sentences  in what I quoted were spot-on.
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CenturyDeprived
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« Reply #132 on: April 03, 2014, 06:39:30 PM »

"Has Mike Ever Expressed Remorse Over Whatever Role He May Have Played in Smile's Demise?"

Has a nice ring to it.

I'm down with that title. That's cool with me.  

I just changed that old thread's title (though I literally had space limitations so I had to edit the title down a bit more from your suggestion for it to fit).

I'm doing this as a gesture of goodwill. Honest.
Maybe this won't be good enough for some people... I dunno.
If the title is still "leading", and if someone else wants me to change the thread title again, I'll do it.

I only ask for respect in return, and a ceasing of sarcastic playground level nonsense.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 06:41:58 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #133 on: April 03, 2014, 06:41:11 PM »



I honestly was wondering what the answer was to that question when the question popped into my head - so I ask you the honest question: in what manner could I have entitled the thread that wouldn't be considered "leading"?

If there's a better title for that thread that's less "leading", let me know and I'll actually edit that thread's title.

Or is there no way to ask the question in any shape or form without it being considered "leading"? I really don't know that there is, but if there is I'm honestly all ears.

4 Separate threads now... 4!!!

I feel sorry for the moderators having to lock threads when there really should be no need.





This board is turning into a festering cesspool. I'm quite frankly sick of people not treating each other with respect. Don't have to agree, but quit being pissants towards each other, for f***'s sake.

Quote
Pinder: One thing I'd like to clarify - I myself, awhile back, started the "Has Mike Love ever taken a shred of responsibility for SMILE's demise" thread for one reason. My intention wasn't to bash Mike. 

I asked because I didn't know the actual answer to the question, and I was curious to know the answer, and to further my understanding on the topic.  I do have my own opinions about the matter, just like you do - but my intention in starting that thread was because I was honestly curious if there was an interview, or even a tiny off the cuff public remark that I had missed along the way. No BS. That was the reason. You may not believe it, but I *want* to find real, legit reasons to like Mike more, and I truly desire for the public at large to gain a more balanced view of him. I think the Youtube haters are nuts.

I figured the people on this board could answer the question. Some fans here have been around for decades longer than me, so I figured if anyone would know, it would be people here.

It's a touchy topic, yes. And I've gained lots of knowledge about the topic on this board - and I've also gained a deeper understanding of nuances of the time due to various topics on this board.

In other words, my feelings about Mike have improved and have become more balanced over time as a result of reading intelligent conversation on this board.

Even if we still don't see eye to eye, I would think that you would be of the opinion that this is a good thing to have happened?

In an attempt to get back on a topic without people getting pissy...I think your last two sentences  in what I quoted were spot-on.

Thanks Billy.
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alf wiedersehen
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« Reply #134 on: April 03, 2014, 06:50:39 PM »

I think your intentions were great. It's a very good question and something I didn't know the answer to either.

A lot of people are more "close minded" about Mike and aren't willing to perhaps think that he isn't the villain that he's so easily made out to be. He's an easy scapegoat for all the band's troubles and that's unfortunate - he really doesn't deserve a lot of the crap that's thrown at him. He's just a person, and - like all other people - has made some mistakes, and it doesn't help that he's been around and in the spotlight for sixty years. It seems like people are starting to come around more and not just blindly disparaging Mike because he's the easy target.

However, when the thread was made, a lot of bickering over Mike was happening - which probably isn't surprising. It was sort of hijacked and turned into yet another avenue for people to argue about the same goshdarn thing over and over again. Whether intentional or not, the thread did sort of invite that conversation, but it's not really your fault, as that sort of thing cannot be helped.

Anyway, did you ever find your answer?
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« Reply #135 on: April 03, 2014, 06:53:15 PM »

Well said Bubbly. The whole 'Brian and the Five Assholes' thing (tm Leaf) is so out of line that it's downright ludicrous to an unbiased observer. Truth is, they ALL have been assholes at some point. Well, except Dave, who is a righteous dude by all accounts.
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« Reply #136 on: April 03, 2014, 07:08:41 PM »

I think your intentions were great. It's a very good question and something I didn't know the answer to either.

A lot of people are more "close minded" about Mike and aren't willing to perhaps think that he isn't the villain that he's so easily made out to be. He's an easy scapegoat for all the band's troubles and that's unfortunate - he really doesn't deserve a lot of the crap that's thrown at him. He's just a person, and - like all other people - has made some mistakes, and it doesn't help that he's been around and in the spotlight for sixty years. It seems like people are starting to come around more and not just blindly disparaging Mike because he's the easy target.

However, when the thread was made, a lot of bickering over Mike was happening - which probably isn't surprising. It was sort of hijacked and turned into yet another avenue for people to argue about the same goshdarn thing over and over again. Whether intentional or not, the thread did sort of invite that conversation, but it's not really your fault, as that sort of thing cannot be helped.

Anyway, did you ever find your answer?

The closest thing I got to an answer is the "being related has allowed us to be crueler than otherwise", or something like that. As far as I've heard in the replies to my question, that's as close as I've been made aware of a public expression of possible regret (which could be interpreted by the reader/listener as being about SMiLE, or possibly other things - I don't know the context of the quote).

Either way, I believe it is possible for someone to not hate the man, nor think he's a horrible human being, to believe that he isn't either largely or wholly responsible for the SMiLE situation, and to still ask questions about him having some degree (even small) of a contributing factor role... or for us to hypothesize/discuss about what role his bandmates think he had... or for us to hypothesize/discuss about what the man himself thinks his role was (or what he thinks about when seeing his own name being called out on Beautiful Dreamer, for example) - and to still NOT be accused of inciting blind hatred.  

Maybe we are crazy in trying to get into the motivations of people who we don't know. But then again, it's just discussion and exchange of ideas. Nobody is on trial here, nor do I want to be for having a polite discussion. Many people here have a knee-jerk reaction when perhaps they shouldn't. I don't think I'm a jerk for asking people on this board (with whom I disagree with) questions about what makes them feel they way the do, either. I'm curious, is all. There's especially nothing wrong about it if we are talking to each other respectfully.

It's a discussion, and we should all keep a Cool Head and Warm Heart here. I'm trying my very best to.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 07:15:58 PM by CenturyDeprived » Logged
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« Reply #137 on: April 03, 2014, 07:21:37 PM »

I'm very happy to see this coming around a bit..... I know I haven't particularly helped, but I'm liking this.

As to the "missed the boat question"?

..... IMHO it's the rest of the world that missed the boat. Not The Beach Boys.
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« Reply #138 on: April 03, 2014, 07:22:01 PM »



I honestly was wondering what the answer was to that question when the question popped into my head - so I ask you the honest question: in what manner could I have entitled the thread that wouldn't be considered "leading"?

If there's a better title for that thread that's less "leading", let me know and I'll actually edit that thread's title.

Or is there no way to ask the question in any shape or form without it being considered "leading"? I really don't know that there is, but if there is I'm honestly all ears.

4 Separate threads now... 4!!!

I feel sorry for the moderators having to lock threads when there really should be no need.





This board is turning into a festering cesspool. I'm quite frankly sick of people not treating each other with respect. Don't have to agree, but quit being pissants towards each other, for f***'s sake.

Quote
Pinder: One thing I'd like to clarify - I myself, awhile back, started the "Has Mike Love ever taken a shred of responsibility for SMILE's demise" thread for one reason. My intention wasn't to bash Mike.  

I asked because I didn't know the actual answer to the question, and I was curious to know the answer, and to further my understanding on the topic.  I do have my own opinions about the matter, just like you do - but my intention in starting that thread was because I was honestly curious if there was an interview, or even a tiny off the cuff public remark that I had missed along the way. No BS. That was the reason. You may not believe it, but I *want* to find real, legit reasons to like Mike more, and I truly desire for the public at large to gain a more balanced view of him. I think the Youtube haters are nuts.

I figured the people on this board could answer the question. Some fans here have been around for decades longer than me, so I figured if anyone would know, it would be people here.

It's a touchy topic, yes. And I've gained lots of knowledge about the topic on this board - and I've also gained a deeper understanding of nuances of the time due to various topics on this board.

In other words, my feelings about Mike have improved and have become more balanced over time as a result of reading intelligent conversation on this board.

Even if we still don't see eye to eye, I would think that you would be of the opinion that this is a good thing to have happened?

In an attempt to get back on a topic without people getting pissy...I think your last two sentences  in what I quoted were spot-on.

You seem like a respectable fellow. With all these "the mods are gonna delete this!" posts, I wasn't sure we'd be on the same page or not. As a newcomer who's just been trying to talk...I have to agree, unfortunately. I wish the atmosphere here was a bit more respectful. As it is now, I have to agree with CenturyDeprived. I feel like I have to walk on eggshells around here lest I be chewed out for the silliest things like not including Good Vibrations on a SMiLE mix or genuinely sharing my two cents on older threads.

Not trying to be all "woe is me" about it, but I gotta say aside from some really supportive PMs from a couple people this forum has been very unwelcoming so far and I gotta say that's a damn shame.

As I've said before, I've been a lurker (guest?) for awhile before I started posting and this board has been a great reasource on SMiLE and the Beach Boys in general. Like century, I too have gained a more nuanced view of Mike reading some of the topics here. Apparently not nuanced enough for some people, but whatever.

Anyway, it's a real shame those good aspects of this board are compromised by people like Mikie who's been harassing me since I got here, and kittykat whose last post towards me I'd like to address. (S)He said:

Smile has been released, in several iterations. I'm not sure what the point is about debating what it would have done back in the '60s, particularly by people born decades after the fact and especially those who seem to have little taste for music other than Smile or little interest in researching the musical history of that era.

There was once a board devoted to Smile. Maybe someone should start a new one if they are that interested, or write a blog about it and invite comments. It has to be understood that a lot of folks posting on this board have been reading about this for decades. There is fatigue that sets in.

Without getting personal, I just have to say I think it's pretty rude of you to assume I haven't "researched the musical history of the era." I love late sixties music especially Psychedelic rock. Who are you to claim otherwise? What do you even know about me aside from the fact that I've been posting the last few days here, mostly regarding SMiLE? What does the fact that I was born decades later have to do with anything? Ok, so you're implying you've been reading about the album for decades...I envy you. I really do. I wish I could've been alive in the 80s collecting the first bootlegs, seen BWPS live and be a part of that triumphant conquering of the music once and for all, known what it was like to finally open the boxset after almost 50 years of waiting...

But I can't. What I can do is discuss the material, share my love of it with other people who do (or claim to, at least) and so on. It has to be understood on *your* part that not everyone has had the chance to discuss this for decades and some of us are new to it and would've been interested to hear what people like you, who were there back then had to say. If I were in your shoes, I'd have been happy to pass on such knowledge to the new fans. I'd have been happy to see a new generation fall in love with the same beautiful music I did. Not been condescending and dismissive of their desire to learn more. But that's just me.

Billy, to address you once again--thanks for not locking this thread on my account. I hope genuine discussion on this and other threads I've posted on can continue. Whether I'll choose to be part of it after all this bullsh!t lately...I don't know.

"You know how they say 'It's been a pleasue?' It hasn't."
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 07:43:05 PM by Mujan » Logged

Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
Nicko1234
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« Reply #139 on: April 03, 2014, 07:23:20 PM »


The closest thing I got to an answer is the "being related has allowed us to be crueler than otherwise", or something like that. As far as I've heard in the replies to my question, that's as close as I've been made aware of a public expression of possible regret (which could be interpreted by the reader/listener as being about SMiLE, or possibly other things - I don't know the context of the quote).

Either way, I believe it is possible for someone to not hate the man, nor think he's a horrible human being, to believe that he isn't either largely or wholly responsible for the SMiLE situation, and to still ask questions about him having some degree (even small) of a contributing factor role... or for us to hypothesize about what role his bandmates think he had... or for us to hypothesize about what the man himself thinks his role was (or what he thinks about when seeing his own name being called out on Beautiful Dreamer, for example) - and to still NOT be accused of inciting blind hatred.  

Maybe we are crazy in trying to get into the motivations of people who we don't know. But then again, it's just discussion and exchange of ideas. Nobody is on trial here, nor do I want to be for having a polite discussion. Many people here have a knee-jerk reaction when perhaps they shouldn't. I don't think I'm a jerk for asking people on this board (with whom I disagree with) questions about what makes them feel the way the do, either. I'm curious, is all. There's especially nothing wrong about it if we are talking to each other respectfully.

It's a discussion, and we should all keep a Cool Head and Warm Heart here. I'm trying my very best to.

No, the `being related` comment certainly wasn`t about Smile.

Your above post is absolutely fair enough but (and I mean this in a genuine way) I don`t think you are ever going to get the answer that you are looking for on this board. While Pinder was doubtless being sarcastic about writing a letter to Mike, contacting the man himself is probably the only way that you might get the sort of answer that you are looking for.

Mike gave an interview about Smile to a UK magazine (maybe MOJO?) about 10 years ago where he gave his recollections which the interviewer felt were sincere from Mike`s perspective (not necessarily entirely accurate but just that Mike believed what he was saying). VDP the next month refuted Mike`s comments. You may wish to seek out that interview for more info on how Mike feels about that time but I don`t think it will satisfy you (again meant sincerely).
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Nicko1234
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« Reply #140 on: April 03, 2014, 07:51:47 PM »


You seem like a respectable fellow. With all these "the mods are gonna delete this!" posts, I wasn't sure we'd be on the same page or not. As a newcomer who's just been trying to talk...I have to agree, unfortunately. I wish the atmosphere here was a bit more respectful. As it is now, I have to agree with CenturyDeprived. I feel like I have to walk on eggshells around here lest I be chewed out for the silliest things like not including Good Vibrations on a SMiLE mix or genuinely sharing my two cents on older threads.

Not trying to be all "woe is me" about it, but I gotta say aside from some really supportive PMs from a couple people this forum has been very unwelcoming so far and I gotta say that's a damn shame.

As I've said before, I've been a lurker (guest?) for awhile before I started posting and this board has been a great reasource on SMiLE and the Beach Boys in general. Like century, I too have gained a more nuanced view of Mike reading some of the topics here. Apparently not nuanced enough for some people, but whatever.


Sorry if you feel anyone has been disrespectful to you on this forum Mujan.

I do think here though that some do get annoyed when there are multiple threads about the same subjects (you can look at the comments about people disliking the number of polls as evidence of that).

Having 4 threads all about pretty much the same aspects of Smile at the same time was bound to produce comment unfortunately. Now that certainly isn`t entirely your fault because the question that you asked on the VDP buffoonery thread was entirely legitimate. But, as you saw, all it takes is one (in this case false) `it was Mike`s fault` response and suddenly you have a legitimate thread about Brian and VDP being turned into another thread on the same subject as all of the others.
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« Reply #141 on: April 03, 2014, 11:28:46 PM »

I'm very happy to see this coming around a bit..... I know I haven't particularly helped, but I'm liking this.

As to the "missed the boat question"?

..... IMHO it's the rest of the world that missed the boat. Not The Beach Boys.

This may be the most sensible thing I've read on here in a while.
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« Reply #142 on: April 04, 2014, 12:41:23 AM »

mike love etc


lets listen to SMILEY SMILE and forget about this smile thaaaang we got Pet sounds anyway!!!  Smokin
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