missed the boat?

[Lonelysea30]

SMILE is like a piece of art, musically I think it almost has everything.  I don't think u need to necessarily rock out to be hip with the crowd in 67, but I just think it would of been hard for them to accept such a drastic change from them.  If the beach boys formed in 66 and their first album was pet sounds followed by smile I think that crowd would of loved it.  I mean look at mamas and papas, Crosby stills and Nash, Neil young. These bands did not rock but were considered to be in.  I just think that if they formed and started with pet sounds everything would been different.  Although I love the surf stuff!!

[BillA]

So going back to the original question, the overall consesus here seems that there were no regrets by the other members..but man, wild honey produced like pet sounds would of been something else.??

Actually, in my alternate universe Brian uses "Booker T and the MG's" with the "Memphis Horns" to record "Wild Honey"

[BillA]

Was thinking, do u guys think when some of the other band members who opposed smile, heard sgt. Pepper, and its recognition think they new they missed the boat?.  Like oh, I see what Brian was doing, and f*** me, the Beatles did it and we were wrong. Take mike, he thought he was doing good by the band, but when he heard sgt. Pepper even he must of thought secretly, damm Brian was right the whole time.

The question assumes that SMiLE was killed due to opposition from some of the Beach Boys.  I believe that Brian killed SMiLE.  If the rest of the band had any say in the matter "Smiley Smile" would never have seen the light of day.

Is there a bigger WTF in rock history than "Smiley"?

[Kurosawa]

The members who opposed it (mainly Mike) would never in a billion years admit that they missed the boat, but they completely did. Failing to release SMiLE is without a doubt what ended the BB as a major group. The Who dealt with a similar situation much better with Who's Next, but then again Roger Daltrey is basically Mike Love done right.

I know the whole "Mike is evil" thing is old hat, and I don't buy into it. I just think he's clueless.

[Alex]

So going back to the original question, the overall consesus here seems that there were no regrets by the other members..but man, wild honey produced like pet sounds would of been something else.??

Actually, in my alternate universe Brian uses "Booker T and the MG's" with the "Memphis Horns" to record "Wild Honey"

That would rock my socks off it that had actually happened! And add in a vocal cameo from Otis Redding....

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I bet if Mike Love had his way, the would have released SMiLE over Smiley Smile any day. Mike said recently that he didn't have a say in the matter anyway.

Dennis put it best in the 76(?) interview I believe in the Australia radio station. When told that it had been reported that they didn't support Brian's music for Pet Sounds, he said (paraphrasing) "are you kidding?" "Who said that?" "Did Brian say that?" "Whoever said that is being humble?"

I think, in Brian's mind they didn't like it. There is no way for me to know this, but I bet that Mike was upset that Brian was moving away from him as a lyricist. Mike had more lyrical credits on each passing album until Pet Sounds. He seemed to disapprove of Tony Asher's lyrics even though he wrote similar kinds of lyrics on Today. With Van Dyke, he probably really didn't like the abstract lyrics. But most of all, Mike wrote the lyrics to Good Vibrations which went to number one! In his mind, he must have been going crazy to be pushed aside once again. I am sure that he over criticized the lyrics to make a point to Brian. He probably feels that if he wrote lyrics for Heroes and Villains, he could have made it a number one song. Maybe he would, and maybe he wouldn't but he just did with Good Vibrations so why not? Personally, I am amazed with Van Dykes lyrics. But I sympathize with Mike.

[I. Spaceman]

There is no way for me to know this, but I bet that Mike was upset that Brian was moving away from him as a lyricist. 

As expressed in the BB TV miniseries, Mike felt he and Brian had a "deal" that they would write the next album after Pet Sounds together, and he was hurt when this did not come to pass.

[MBE]

I bet if Mike Love had his way, the would have released Smile over Smiley Smile any day. Mike said recently that he didn't have a say in the matter anyway.

Dennis put it best in the 76(?) interview I believe in the Australia radio station. When told that it had been reported that they didn't support Brian's music for Pet Sounds, he said (paraphrasing) "are you kidding?" "Who said that?" "Did Brian say that?" "Whoever said that is being humble?"

I think, in Brian's mind they didn't like it. There is no way for me to know this, but I bet that Mike was upset that Brian was moving away from him as a lyricist. Mike had more lyrical credits on each passing album until Pet Sounds. He seemed to disapprove of Tony Asher's lyrics even though he wrote similar kinds of lyrics on Today. With Van Dyke, he probably really didn't like the abstract lyrics. But most of all, Mike wrote the lyrics to Good Vibrations which went to number one! In his mind, he must have been going crazy to be pushed aside once again. I am sure that he over criticized the lyrics to make a point to Brian. He probably feels that if he wrote lyrics for Heroes and Villains, he could have made it a number one song. Maybe he would, and maybe he wouldn't but he just did with Good Vibrations so why not? Personally, I am amazed with Van Dykes lyrics. But I sympathize with Mike.

I agree with you here. . Mike not liking the last stanza of "Cabinessence" wouldn't have stopped Brian if he believed in Smile like he did Pet Sounds. Another thing to consider is that Mike did like Brian's work on Smile, just not Van Dyke's. Even so nobody ever told Brian not to do the album. I maintain that had Brian been certain he wouldn't have let others opinions get to him. I don't blame Van Dyke because how was he to know, but his leaving the sessions did give Brian a chance to second guess him. If you read everything Brian has said on Smile over the years compared to Pet Sounds, I think you will still see some doubt in comparison. Yes he sometimes blames his decision not to put it out on "the guys" even Dennis, but that's not borne out due to all of them getting past their doubts and working hard on the sessions. Even Domenic Priore, who has skewered the band over Smile, agrees that what they did during the sessions was some of their best work vocally.

Personally I like Van Dyke's stuff with Brian and Come To The Sunshine a lot. Without Brian he's not my style in general. Just my taste I guess, but I do think at his best he was a unique songwriter. He doesn't like my view on Smile, but he's mistaken if he thinks I don't rate his work.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I need to stop making statements on memory alone. When Mike Love said that he didn't have a say in the matter, or more precisely, no authority in the matter, he was talking about the accusation of firing Brian from the Beach Boys last fall.

Of course I don't feel too bad. There are professional documentaries that blatantly take quotes out of context. Even so, I believe that Mike didn't have the power to kill SMiLE.

Here's a thought, since Brian seems to put some blame on Mike, is it possible that one of the voices in his head sounds just like Mike? 

[AndrewHickey]

Here's a thought, since Brian seems to put some blame on Mike, is it possible that one of the voices in his head sounds just like Mike? 

If so, then Van Dyke can hear the voices in Brian's head, which would be quite something.

Personally, I have no problem believing that Mike's distaste for the lyrics played *some* part in Smile's cancellation, just as I have no problem believing that the decision was, in the end, Brian's.

[Ron]

Was thinking, do u guys think when some of the other band members who opposed smile, heard sgt. Pepper, and its recognition think they new they missed the boat?.  Like oh, I see what Brian was doing, and f*** me, the Beatles did it and we were wrong. Take mike, he thought he was doing good by the band, but when he heard sgt. Pepper even he must of thought secretly, damm Brian was right the whole time.

Not really... that whole story is b.s. anyways.  If the Beach Boys were so against SMiLE coming out, then why did they release Smiley Smile?  It's 10X more weird than Smile!  So the album they released was far more trippy and over the top than anything Brian was trying on SMiLE, it got released, Brian produced it, recorded most of it, Mike and everybody else sang on it, etc. 

So there wouldn't have been any big revelation... because there wasn't any serious opposition to the album in the first place.   The rest of those guys at the time were CLUELESS in the studio, they put out whatever Brian wanted to put out because they didn't have any choice or any ability to do it themselves. 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Was thinking, do u guys think when some of the other band members who opposed smile, heard sgt. Pepper, and its recognition think they new they missed the boat?.  Like oh, I see what Brian was doing, and f*** me, the Beatles did it and we were wrong. Take mike, he thought he was doing good by the band, but when he heard sgt. Pepper even he must of thought secretly, damm Brian was right the whole time.

Not really... that whole story is b.s. anyways.  If the Beach Boys were so against SMiLE coming out, then why did they release Smiley Smile?  It's 10X more weird than Smile!  So the album they released was far more trippy and over the top than anything Brian was trying on SMiLE, it got released, Brian produced it, recorded most of it, Mike and everybody else sang on it, etc. 

So there wouldn't have been any big revelation... because there wasn't any serious opposition to the album in the first place.   The rest of those guys at the time were CLUELESS in the studio, they put out whatever Brian wanted to put out because they didn't have any choice or any ability to do it themselves. 

Brian, Van Dyke, Marilyn, Tony Asher, and other people who were there first hand have agreed that the Boys were not entirely on board with Brian's music from that period. Mike has been honest about finding the Smile stuff too weird. So the whole story is not b.s. Did that mean they didn't want it to come out? Probably not. I'm sure they really wanted something to come out and they were probably frustrated that Brian was concentrating on creating music that seemed like it was never going to come out, and were probably relieved when they started doing the more simplified Smiley Smile, no matter how much weirder it was.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Sometimes I think The Beach Boys - all of them - wanted it both ways. I think a part of them wanted to go "out there" and be cool and trippy and be part of the hip crowd. I'm sure they were starting to feel more self-conscious about their surf & turf image than they let on. It's just that they were having so much success as "The Beach Boys", and those hit records were so recent, only two, maybe three years old.

But, no matter how much they - including Brian - changed, both personally or professionally, I think at heart they will always prefer or be more comfortable just playing good old rock and roll. They just always seem to migrate back to that.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Sometimes I think The Beach Boys - all of them - wanted it both ways. I think a part of them wanted to go "out there" and be cool and trippy and be part of the hip crowd. I'm sure they were starting to feel more self-conscious about their surf & turf image than they let on. It's just that they were having so much success as "The Beach Boys", and those hit records were so recent, only two, maybe three years old.

But, no matter how much they - including Brian - changed, both personally or professionally, I think at heart they will always prefer or be more comfortable just playing good old rock and roll. They just always seem to migrate back to that.

At least some of them. Dennis and Carl may have been more reluctant.

[leggo of my ego]

I cant believe I read every post on the thread (and how long it took)

One thing no one has brought up is that back the 1960s we young people liked to DANCE.

The "dance-ability" factor was high in most hit songs... and I don't mean the fast dances - we liked
to slow dance too ya know.  Any LP released in 67 with no singles you can dance to would have
struggled in the market no matter know well received by the "hipsters" and in-crowd elite. I think
it would be Mike Love saying I told you to stick to the formula.

[NHC]

I cant believe I read every post on the thread (and how long it took)

One thing no one has brought up is that back the 1960s we young people liked to DANCE.

The "dance-ability" factor was high in most hit songs... and I don't mean the fast dances - we liked
to slow dance too ya know.  Any LP released in 67 with no singles you can dance to would have
struggled in the market no matter know well received by the "hipsters" and in-crowd elite. I think
it would be Mike Love saying I told you to stick to the formula.

That's a good point.  My girlfriend at the time, late 60's, early 70's, now my wife for almost 41 years, grew up in a "dancing" family, mostly country-western.  I was in college at the time at Berkeley, and brought over the first Electric Flag album and Super Session once when her aunts and uncles were all gathered at her parents' house for a get-together, and when I finally got a chance to put it on, the response was, "what the heck is that and how can you dance to it?" We still seem to have that question unresolved.  As a musician of sorts, I've always been interested in the music itself, but other folk like to dance. Dancing to Smile would have been a real challenge.

[Mr. Cohen]

Who needs music you can dance to when we have music you can eat vegetables to? Music you can set fire to a town with, music you can waltz to - hell, music you can even domino columnated ruins to? This question of 4/4 dance appeal is just the sort of constrained, backwards thinking Brian was hemmed in by at the time. It wasn't just the Beach Boys that didn't get. Almost no one could.

[I. Spaceman]

Even The Doors and Velvet Underground were dance bands. It was the 1960's.

[Mr. Cohen]

I guess he just wasn't made for these times. That's why he shelved Smile. It was ahead of its time.

[I. Spaceman]

I guess he just wasn't made for these times. That's why he shelved Smile. It was ahead of its time.

He needed another year.

[Mr. Cohen]

I'm just saying, Brian was enlightened. If we had more enlightened people, we wouldn't be so fixated on dance music. We'd understand that there is a time and place for it, but that it needn't dominate the entire spectrum of radio waves.

[EgoHanger1966]

I'm just saying, Brian was enlightened. If we had more enlightened people, we wouldn't be so fixated on dance music. We'd understand that there is a time and place for it, but that it needn't dominate the entire spectrum of radio waves.

Are you advocating the mass consumption of LSD, hash, and birthday cake? 

[guitarfool2002]

Even the enlightened folks who would attend the acid parties in New York, California, etc were not sitting around in a circle listening to the bands play - they were moving and dancing to the music. Plenty of film exists - in most of them, you see dancing.  

If you wanted the other side of that coin, you could go to where the intellectuals were checking out free-form jazz and remnants of the beat clubs, and those other jazz and or folk clubs where signs were posted telling the patrons dancing wasn't allowed.

Not saying Brian was or wasn't somehow affected by some restriction of popular music, but notice that for his big planned Smile single he lifted a driving Phil Spector beat and rocking groove that would, in fact, get people up and moving for at least a decent portion of the record, that is if Heroes had been released in early '67 as scheduled. At some point, just like on Pet Sounds and other BB's releases, you could have music to move with and music to listen to and contemplate existing on the same album.

I didn't realize being born after the fact by a few years just how much of a dancing song "Heroes" really is or was until I saw the crowd in New York grooving and moving like mad to the driving beat of the song when the American Band doc had that live clip of them playing it outdoors, and the crowd is moving, clapping, and bopping along like crazy. Before that I think I assumed it was one of Brian's listening trips rather than a groove-along crowd pleaser...it was both.

[I. Spaceman]

Exactly. Enlightened people like dancing too. Just look at Allen Ginsberg.

[Mr. Cohen]

"H&V" could certainly move in a live context, but I find the chorus of the single to be too baroque. And just so you know, this whole line about being able to dance to a single is an argument against "H&V" put forth by the inestimable Bruce "Short Shorts" Johnston.  The question was: do you want to be a leader, a legend- or dare I say it? - a revolutionary? Or Mr. 5,000th dance song?

One of the top songs of '67 was "To Sir With Love". Not too many are waxin' rhapsodic about it these days.