Wow...Extreme denial regarding Wrecking Crew replacing Beach Boys

[SMiLE Brian]

Glad to see the fight for the truth in this matter continues. Props to Jon, AGD, and Mark Linnet.

You want the truth?  The truth is, who gives a $hit what a Facebook page says?

A lot of people do because facebook apparently runs America these days...

[Rocker]

I think yesterday they had a "Help me Rhonda"-question. Didn't even bother to read it but I wouldn't be surprised if something similar was claimed for "Ronda"....

[guitarfool2002]

That question was about which BB's single had been re-recorded and reworked by Brian for single release after some radio stations began to play the album version.

[Don Malcolm]

GF02 (that's my nickname for you till I'm here long enough to know your real name!): I didn't mean to suggest that the project would be solely a compilation of the session sheets, as I've read enough here in the back threads to know that the "real" info is a combination of that data and careful listening, etc., from a group of dedicated researchers. THAT's the ideal list that I think a sufficient number of BB lovers here would appreciate in an easily accessible web format.

Aside from the value of just having that detailed info readily available to any and all interested, it would serve the purpose of shutting down competing claims from other research groups.

And I do realize that such an effort would be anything but a "snap of the fingers" exercise...much more complicated and time-consuming than a "definitive vocals" list, for obvious reasons. If anyone could possibly do this, however, it's definitely you guys!

[I. Spaceman]

It is hard to shut those Wrecking Crew-ista folks down with their claims, because they are already coming from an extremely defensive, "setting the record straight", reclaiming-the-glory position.

[Jon Stebbins]

It is hard to shut those Wrecking Crew-ista folks down with their claims, because they are already coming from an extremely defensive, "setting the record straight", reclaiming-the-glory position.

Exactly. They resist learning in reverse. Or unlearning forward. When someone believes what they have learned is a revelation, it is extremely hard to convince them that it was a partially inaccurate revelation.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Am I alone in finding it utterly incredible that they saw an AFM with "IGA" on it that didn't have one single recognized Crew member but rather a shitload of orchestral types, but still assumed it was a BB session ?  Or that they didn't notice that five of the six titles on another AFM were songs the band never, ever recorded ? Or that - most dammingly in my eyes - they accepted the AFMs at face value  ?

[Jon Stebbins]

Am I alone in finding it utterly incredible that they saw an AFM with "IGA" on it that didn't have one single recognized Crew member but rather a sh*tload of orchestral types, but still assumed it was a BB session ?  Or that they didn't notice that five of the six titles on another AFM were songs the band never, ever recorded ? Or that - most dammingly in my eyes - they accepted the AFMs at face value  ?

You'll Never Walk Alone...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx4vME0d1w8

[bgas]

Am I alone in finding it utterly incredible that they saw an AFM with "IGA" on it that didn't have one single recognized Crew member but rather a sh*tload of orchestral types, but still assumed it was a BB session ?  Or that they didn't notice that five of the six titles on another AFM were songs the band never, ever recorded ? Or that - most dammingly in my eyes - they accepted the AFMs at face value  ?

You'll Never Walk Alone...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx4vME0d1w8

I see you, and raise:       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1Tf58Gl0vQ

[c-man]

Idea: a full on-line sessions list, building off the research of AGD and others, would be the best way to combat the mixed-up history that the WC site is promulgating. That would be more than a bit of work, but what a great reference base that would be!

A sessions list wouldn't carry near as much weight as the actual tapes from the session floor.

Because, as the researchers would mention too, you cannot take the word of what got listed on the AFM session sheets as the Gospel truth for what happened on any given session. It lists the players who were contracted for that session and the players and staff who would be paid for that session: It doesn't list exactly who played what during the hours the session actually took place.

Look at the Good Vibrations film footage: Carl is clearly shown playing two different Fender basses, through a tweed Fender amp...yet why isn't he listed as playing bass on that session? He's clearly there, he's clearly playing electric bass, he'd be listed on the union contract as a result...but he's not. Without that film, would we know Carl Wilson was playing the Beach Boys' electric basses that day at Western if all we had was the contract?

The contracts aren't 100% accurate either.

I could tell that Carl was playing bass on at least one of those sessions, way back in 2000...by listening to the session tape as presented on Unsurpassed Masters!    When I got the chance to hear the full, unedited session tapes last year, I heard other things that aren't obvious on the edited versions (like Brian playing tambourine at one point).  The key to a solid, unimpeachable credits list is access to all the existing tape, film (when there is some), and the AFM contracts.  Fortunately, for The SMiLE Sessions, I was given access to those!  There will probably always be a few ?s, and some things we will never know, but at least we can solve the question of which songs feature just the BBs, which feature just the WC (on instrumentation), and which feature some of both.

[Rocky Raccoon]

Carol Kaye on this film you speak of.

"I'm always deeply devoted since the 1970s to the cause of studio musicians being recognized for the talent and full scope of their depth in helping to create the 1960s-70s hit records and movie/TV show soundtracks. The Denny Tedesco-Hal Blaine "wrecking" film-doc doesn't tell the real story as he said it would, it's skewered, re-edited. We were never known as the Hal Blaine-invented 1990 self-promo "wrecking crew" term - like Leon Russell, Al Kooper others say, that's pure baloney. The 50-60 of us (out of 400+ hard-working recording musicians) were sometimes called the CLIQUE and most were successful jazz musicians with fine reputations before ever doing studio work."

Source: http://www.carolkaye.com/index.htm

So it seems like these guys aren't really interested in the complete truth.

[I. Spaceman]

And Carol REALLY isn't interested in the truth, she's the worst of the lot.

[bgas]

Carol Kaye on this film you speak of.

"I'm always deeply devoted since the 1970s to the cause of studio musicians being recognized for the talent and full scope of their depth in helping to create the 1960s-70s hit records and movie/TV show soundtracks. The Denny Tedesco-Hal Blaine "wrecking" film-doc doesn't tell the real story as he said it would, it's skewered, re-edited. We were never known as the Hal Blaine-invented 1990 self-promo "wrecking crew" term - like Leon Russell, Al Kooper others say, that's pure baloney. The 50-60 of us (out of 400+ hard-working recording musicians) were sometimes called the CLIQUE and most were successful jazz musicians with fine reputations before ever doing studio work."

Source: http://www.carolkaye.com/index.htm

So it seems like these guys aren't really interested in the complete truth.

Methinks you left out the best part of the quote: 
>>  Kent Hartman obtained my interview under fraud pretenses. His phony "wrecking" book re-invents history, please don't buy it. My book will be out this year, Carol K .   <<

[I. Spaceman]

And after he makes her practically the hero of that book? UGH. I think it would be best for all concerned to start thinking of those people as faceless session musicians again.

[18thofMay]

Am I alone in finding it utterly incredible that they saw an AFM with "IGA" on it that didn't have one single recognized Crew member but rather a sh*tload of orchestral types, but still assumed it was a BB session ?  Or that they didn't notice that five of the six titles on another AFM were songs the band never, ever recorded ? Or that - most dammingly in my eyes - they accepted the AFMs at face value  ?

You'll Never Walk Alone...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx4vME0d1w8

I see you, and raise:       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1Tf58Gl0vQ

YNWA

[SMiLE Brian]

The crew were great in their time, the lying game played by CK ruins that.

[I. Spaceman]

All of them take credit for sessions they weren't on, including Blaine and Campbell (just found out that he is being credited for playing the opening guitar lick of Viva Las Vegas-that's amusing). Carol is just the most obnoxious and prolific.

[halblaineisgood]

.

[guitarfool2002]

I think it was back in the late 80's or early 90's that Tommy Tedesco himself said something like this: "I have people all the time tell me how great I played on a record which I never played on."

If I mangle the exact wording, my apologies. But the sentiment is the same.

I'd say there is a difference between going along with the hype, believing the hype, creating the hype, and trusting the hype in spite of the factual evidence.

For further proof of what a slippery slope all of this can be, I'd like to see someone prove to me who played that baritone guitar solo part on Glen Campbell's "Wichita Lineman", and I'll counter with evidence perhaps just as compelling to suggest it may have been someone else. And we end up right back here.

And again, ignore it if you wish, but I'll say it again: If the cause of proving these things is crucial to telling the correct story and setting the record straight on who-played-what in terms of the Beach Boys, let them hear the actual session tapes. End of story, it would be all over and the truth will have been presented in the form of an audio recording.

Why not do just that and end all of this for good? Motown possibly could have done that too after Alan Slutsky got wrapped up in a legal mess when doing that Jamerson book.

[bgas]

And again, ignore it if you wish, but I'll say it again: If the cause of proving these things is crucial to telling the correct story and setting the record straight on who-played-what in terms of the Beach Boys, let them hear the actual session tapes. End of story, it would be all over and the truth will have been presented in the form of an audio recording.

Why not do just that and end all of this for good? Motown possibly could have done that too after Alan Slutsky got wrapped up in a legal mess when doing that Jamerson book.

Well, let's see here: Carl and Dennis are gone. Mike sings, Brian gets all the credit anyway. Is Al going to be in charge of making sure the session tapes are released to prove he was playing Rhythm?
 I'm certain everyone in the choir here would love to see the tapes released, but you'll be hard-pressed to find even one BB that cares.

[guitarfool2002]

Idea: a full on-line sessions list, building off the research of AGD and others, would be the best way to combat the mixed-up history that the WC site is promulgating. That would be more than a bit of work, but what a great reference base that would be!

A sessions list wouldn't carry near as much weight as the actual tapes from the session floor.

Because, as the researchers would mention too, you cannot take the word of what got listed on the AFM session sheets as the Gospel truth for what happened on any given session. It lists the players who were contracted for that session and the players and staff who would be paid for that session: It doesn't list exactly who played what during the hours the session actually took place.

Look at the Good Vibrations film footage: Carl is clearly shown playing two different Fender basses, through a tweed Fender amp...yet why isn't he listed as playing bass on that session? He's clearly there, he's clearly playing electric bass, he'd be listed on the union contract as a result...but he's not. Without that film, would we know Carl Wilson was playing the Beach Boys' electric basses that day at Western if all we had was the contract?

The contracts aren't 100% accurate either.

I could tell that Carl was playing bass on at least one of those sessions, way back in 2000...by listening to the session tape as presented on Unsurpassed Masters!    When I got the chance to hear the full, unedited session tapes last year, I heard other things that aren't obvious on the edited versions (like Brian playing tambourine at one point).  The key to a solid, unimpeachable credits list is access to all the existing tape, film (when there is some), and the AFM contracts.  Fortunately, for The SMiLE Sessions, I was given access to those!  There will probably always be a few ?s, and some things we will never know, but at least we can solve the question of which songs feature just the BBs, which feature just the WC (on instrumentation), and which feature some of both.

Of course, and that was a bootleg (horrors!!!)  

But I will also use that example of Carl playing the date but not appearing on the contract to suggest that not every musician who played on a given date is listed on the AFM contract for that date, and that opens up a whole can of worms depending on how folks wish to use that fact. Especially those dates where the only evidence of who was there is the AFM sheet from that session. If we didn't have SOT 15, years before the film was known to exist, yet had the sheet, wouldn't most have assumed Carl wasn't playing bass but a Wrecking Crew bassist was? Again, based only on that contract.

I'm saying if there is in fact that kind of multi-sourced "proof" available to set the record straight, why not do it and end all the debates? Because a slew of contracts doesn't tell you what happened in the studio, and the session tape won't identify each and every musician by name unless they're called out or unless they speak on the tape and we can recognize them - like in the case of a Lyle Ritz or Hal who had distinctive voices. Yet if both are made available, the evidence becomes that much stronger.

[guitarfool2002]

And again, ignore it if you wish, but I'll say it again: If the cause of proving these things is crucial to telling the correct story and setting the record straight on who-played-what in terms of the Beach Boys, let them hear the actual session tapes. End of story, it would be all over and the truth will have been presented in the form of an audio recording.

Why not do just that and end all of this for good? Motown possibly could have done that too after Alan Slutsky got wrapped up in a legal mess when doing that Jamerson book.

Well, let's see here: Carl and Dennis are gone. Mike sings, Brian gets all the credit anyway. Is Al going to be in charge of making sure the session tapes are released to prove he was playing Rhythm?
 I'm certain everyone in the choir here would love to see the tapes released, but you'll be hard-pressed to find even one BB that cares.

I definitely didn't mean The Beach Boys when I said "them", in terms of "let them hear the tapes...", I meant them as far as the people claiming it was not the BB's on the session. And those fans/public/interested parties who believe and continue to repeat the incorrect versions of who-played-what.

I agree, the Beach Boys at this point could care less, but if it's an issue being debated and if it's important enough to pursue, then let the people involved hear the tapes. The debate would end right there.

[bgas]

And again, ignore it if you wish, but I'll say it again: If the cause of proving these things is crucial to telling the correct story and setting the record straight on who-played-what in terms of the Beach Boys, let them hear the actual session tapes. End of story, it would be all over and the truth will have been presented in the form of an audio recording.

Why not do just that and end all of this for good? Motown possibly could have done that too after Alan Slutsky got wrapped up in a legal mess when doing that Jamerson book.

Well, let's see here: Carl and Dennis are gone. Mike sings, Brian gets all the credit anyway. Is Al going to be in charge of making sure the session tapes are released to prove he was playing Rhythm?
 I'm certain everyone in the choir here would love to see the tapes released, but you'll be hard-pressed to find even one BB that cares.

I definitely didn't mean The Beach Boys when I said "them", in terms of "let them hear the tapes...", I meant them as far as the people claiming it was not the BB's on the session. And those fans/public/interested parties who believe and continue to repeat the incorrect versions of who-played-what.

I agree, the Beach Boys at this point could care less, but if it's an issue being debated and if it's important enough to pursue, then let the people involved hear the tapes. The debate would end right there.

Well if that's going to be the deciding point, then I'm going to start arguing it's not the BBs, SO I CAN HEAR THE TAPES!! 

[guitarfool2002]

And again, ignore it if you wish, but I'll say it again: If the cause of proving these things is crucial to telling the correct story and setting the record straight on who-played-what in terms of the Beach Boys, let them hear the actual session tapes. End of story, it would be all over and the truth will have been presented in the form of an audio recording.

Why not do just that and end all of this for good? Motown possibly could have done that too after Alan Slutsky got wrapped up in a legal mess when doing that Jamerson book.

Well, let's see here: Carl and Dennis are gone. Mike sings, Brian gets all the credit anyway. Is Al going to be in charge of making sure the session tapes are released to prove he was playing Rhythm?
 I'm certain everyone in the choir here would love to see the tapes released, but you'll be hard-pressed to find even one BB that cares.

I definitely didn't mean The Beach Boys when I said "them", in terms of "let them hear the tapes...", I meant them as far as the people claiming it was not the BB's on the session. And those fans/public/interested parties who believe and continue to repeat the incorrect versions of who-played-what.

I agree, the Beach Boys at this point could care less, but if it's an issue being debated and if it's important enough to pursue, then let the people involved hear the tapes. The debate would end right there.

Well if that's going to be the deciding point, then I'm going to start arguing it's not the BBs, SO I CAN HEAR THE TAPES!! 

Good point. It also gives away my end game, my goal in the whole deal, my ulterior motive...which is to hear the tapes. 

[bgas]

Good point. It also gives away my end game, my goal in the whole deal, my ulterior motive...which is to hear the tapes. 

 


Wow, No kidding?  Aren't you the sly one....