Wow...Extreme denial regarding Wrecking Crew replacing Beach Boys

[guitarfool2002]

Good point. It also gives away my end game, my goal in the whole deal, my ulterior motive...which is to hear the tapes. 

 


Wow, No kidding?  Aren't you the sly one....

My New Year's resolution for 2013 was to be more transparent. I can cross that off the list now. 

And if someone from the Wrecking Crew or connected to the Wrecking Crew is making claims that aren't correct, it's as simple as having them or the person speaking for them hear the tapes and the story ends there with a thud. That's my point in all seriousness. There is a huge difference between being misinformed and being malicious.

[Micha]

Look at the Good Vibrations film footage: Carl is clearly shown playing two different Fender basses, through a tweed Fender amp...yet why isn't he listed as playing bass on that session? He's clearly there, he's clearly playing electric bass, he'd be listed on the union contract as a result...but he's not. Without that film, would we know Carl Wilson was playing the Beach Boys' electric basses that day at Western if all we had was the contract?

I don't think the silent footage can be regarded as proof. That could be staged for the film. If the actual tapes indicate that Carl played bass, as they seem to do, that leaves less doubt.

I didn't know Hal played on Fun, Fun, Fun - which parts? I thought it was all Dennis.

[halblaineisgood]

.

[guitarfool2002]

Look at the Good Vibrations film footage: Carl is clearly shown playing two different Fender basses, through a tweed Fender amp...yet why isn't he listed as playing bass on that session? He's clearly there, he's clearly playing electric bass, he'd be listed on the union contract as a result...but he's not. Without that film, would we know Carl Wilson was playing the Beach Boys' electric basses that day at Western if all we had was the contract?

I don't think the silent footage can be regarded as proof. That could be staged for the film. If the actual tapes indicate that Carl played bass, as they seem to do, that leaves less doubt.

I didn't know Hal played on Fun, Fun, Fun - which parts? I thought it was all Dennis.

The film was not staged, as someone here proved by synching up the session audio to the film and having it be at least a 95% match, which is amazing for totally separate 45 year old audio and film.

And as I dealt with on the Sonny and Cher film research, where it was also suggested that was "staged", the cost of setting up a studio session with everyone and everything would *far outweigh* the benefits of a few minutes of silent film. Maybe they pretended to play something for the cameras after or before the real session, but getting all the people there and microphones set up precisely wasn't for staging a silent film.

If we're at the point where seeing Carl Wilson playing the exact two Fender basses used by the Beach Boys on stage, in a film of a GV session where everything else lines up and the session players are exactly as heard on that session which we can also hear...if that isn't enough "proof", then researchers and research in general is seriously f***ed up as a result.

I'd say seeing a film of the event in question is the ultimate part of the research trifecta: Audio, paper documentation, film/video. In the case of Carl and GV, we have 2 of those 3 suggesting the other one is wrong.

And if the film were staged, why show Carl on bass and not his usual guitar? And why not feature Mike Love playing sax? 

I'd bet the answer is because it wasn't set up to be staged.

[DonnyL]

Look at the Good Vibrations film footage: Carl is clearly shown playing two different Fender basses, through a tweed Fender amp...yet why isn't he listed as playing bass on that session? He's clearly there, he's clearly playing electric bass, he'd be listed on the union contract as a result...but he's not. Without that film, would we know Carl Wilson was playing the Beach Boys' electric basses that day at Western if all we had was the contract?

I don't think the silent footage can be regarded as proof. That could be staged for the film. If the actual tapes indicate that Carl played bass, as they seem to do, that leaves less doubt.

I didn't know Hal played on Fun, Fun, Fun - which parts? I thought it was all Dennis.

Maybe Hal played the timbales  ?

[guitarfool2002]

Maybe Hal played the timbales  ?

Make sure you're not thinking of Tito Puente's cover version of "Fun Fun Fun", sometimes labeled "Diversión y Alegría y Diversión", they may have mixed up the AFM contracts...

 

[DonnyL]

Maybe Hal played the timbales  ?

Make sure you're not thinking of Tito Puente's cover version of "Fun Fun Fun", sometimes labeled "Diversión y Alegría y Diversión", they may have mixed up the AFM contracts...

 

ha! I noticed Hal used timbales in place of regular 'rack toms' (or whatever they're called) on lots of '60s rock songs. you can hear em in 'FFF'.

you can see them on his kit in this photo:

[Andrew G. Doe]

This may amaze but I side with CK about the Hartman book: the errors in the BB parts are unforgivable, and even I picked up on the problems with the "MacArthur Park" story, so you have to question the veracity of the rest of it. That said, she's still a vindictive, ill-informed liar who claims that she did the work of others even when it has been proven she wasn't even in the same time zone at the time. I am in awe of her musical achievements, just as I'm in awe (for a different reason) of her personality.

 

[guitarfool2002]

Maybe Hal played the timbales  ?

Make sure you're not thinking of Tito Puente's cover version of "Fun Fun Fun", sometimes labeled "Diversión y Alegría y Diversión", they may have mixed up the AFM contracts...

 

ha! I noticed Hal used timbales in place of regular 'rack toms' (or whatever they're called) on lots of '60s rock songs. you can hear em in 'FFF'.

you can see them on his kit in this photo:

Very interesting and a great catch, I never noticed that single drum in that oft-seen photo!

The confusing thing is that Hal had probably the biggest drum kit of its day, just massive amounts of toms and everything else depending on the gig. Hal was something of a pioneer in how his toms sounded, because he'd remove the bottom head on them, and also use tuned/pitched "Concert Toms" which don't have bottom heads as his regular toms...drummers and their setups are too damn confusing, but the idea is that Hal doing this led to certain things being sold by drum companies in the 70's and beyond, apparently. So his kit with "Concert Toms", tuned specifically and having no bottom heads, may have been the Timbale sound rather than actual Timbale drums like Tito would play, but I can't say for sure.

Great eye on that photo!

[metal flake paint]

Look at the Good Vibrations film footage: Carl is clearly shown playing two different Fender basses, through a tweed Fender amp...yet why isn't he listed as playing bass on that session? He's clearly there, he's clearly playing electric bass, he'd be listed on the union contract as a result...but he's not. Without that film, would we know Carl Wilson was playing the Beach Boys' electric basses that day at Western if all we had was the contract?

I don't think the silent footage can be regarded as proof. That could be staged for the film. If the actual tapes indicate that Carl played bass, as they seem to do, that leaves less doubt.

I didn't know Hal played on Fun, Fun, Fun - which parts? I thought it was all Dennis.

Maybe Hal played the timbales  ?

Never knew that Fun x 3 featuerd timbales 

[metal flake paint]

Look at the Good Vibrations film footage: Carl is clearly shown playing two different Fender basses, through a tweed Fender amp...yet why isn't he listed as playing bass on that session? He's clearly there, he's clearly playing electric bass, he'd be listed on the union contract as a result...but he's not. Without that film, would we know Carl Wilson was playing the Beach Boys' electric basses that day at Western if all we had was the contract?

I don't think the silent footage can be regarded as proof. That could be staged for the film. If the actual tapes indicate that Carl played bass, as they seem to do, that leaves less doubt.

I didn't know Hal played on Fun, Fun, Fun - which parts? I thought it was all Dennis.

During one of the Fun x 3 instrumental inserts, Brian yells, "Hey Dennis, don't make the PICK-UPS!!! You're not gonna make the rhythm, don't make 'em." 

[the professor]

Where are those instrumental insets to be heard?  Sorry for not knowing. Thanks

[Jon Stebbins]

It is my understanding that both Hal and Dennis play full kit drums on the "Fun Fun Fun" track, and as Halblaineisgood surmised the prominent fills are Hal. On "I Get Around" Dennis plays the drum kit and Hal plays timbales. Not sure about timbales on Fun Fun Fun...I'm sure C-man would have some insight.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I'm thinking of a new wing for 10452 - a (very) basic exposition of when Brian started using the Crew, and more importantly, on which tracks. My current recollection is that he started using them on his non-BB productions a good few months before the full-on "WDFFIL". Certainly on "Pamela Jean" in late August 1963, and likely on Honeys/Sharon Marie tracks before that. As for BB cuts... I'm thinking "Hawaii" ?

[Jon Stebbins]

I'm thinking of a new wing for 10452 - a (very) basic exposition of when Brian started using the Crew, and more importantly, on which tracks. My current recollection is that he started using them on his non-BB productions a good few months before "WDFFIL". Certainly on "Pamela Jean" in late August 1963, and likely on Honeys/Sharon Marie tracks before that.

The problem with that is that it isn't a clear cut either/or...as Hal comes in on Hawaii as a percussionist, but the band is still playing, or all the times Ray Pohlman AND Al are both playing basses on a track, or all the times its the Beach Boys playing but Steve Douglas and Jay Migliore are playing saxes along with them etc.. etc... So I guess as to not further the misunderstanding you'd have to be more specific than to just add an asterisk or a symbol that designates the track as having WC participation because, as you know, that participation was often in support of, but not instead of.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Not forgetting "Our Car Club", the track to which features Hal, but which was originally intended for The Honeys as "Rabbit's Foot".

Hm.

Tell ya what - I'll draft it and you can proof it.

[DonnyL]

Maybe Hal played the timbales  ?

Make sure you're not thinking of Tito Puente's cover version of "Fun Fun Fun", sometimes labeled "Diversión y Alegría y Diversión", they may have mixed up the AFM contracts...

 

ha! I noticed Hal used timbales in place of regular 'rack toms' (or whatever they're called) on lots of '60s rock songs. you can hear em in 'FFF'.

you can see them on his kit in this photo:

Very interesting and a great catch, I never noticed that single drum in that oft-seen photo!

The confusing thing is that Hal had probably the biggest drum kit of its day, just massive amounts of toms and everything else depending on the gig. Hal was something of a pioneer in how his toms sounded, because he'd remove the bottom head on them, and also use tuned/pitched "Concert Toms" which don't have bottom heads as his regular toms...drummers and their setups are too damn confusing, but the idea is that Hal doing this led to certain things being sold by drum companies in the 70's and beyond, apparently. So his kit with "Concert Toms", tuned specifically and having no bottom heads, may have been the Timbale sound rather than actual Timbale drums like Tito would play, but I can't say for sure.

Great eye on that photo!

Both of the 'toms' he has in this photo are timbales (note the smaller size).

I'm not an expert on drums, but the 'concert' toms as you described would basically make them slightly longer timbales! Using timbales may have just been just an easier way to get a brighter, punchier tom sound.

[Rocker]

I'm thinking of a new wing for 10452 - a (very) basic exposition of when Brian started using the Crew, and more importantly, on which tracks.

Jon has a chapter in his FAQ book about that. Would love to see something like that continued. Also C-Man's site would probably be a good place for that.

[bgas]

Maybe Hal played the timbales  ?

Make sure you're not thinking of Tito Puente's cover version of "Fun Fun Fun", sometimes labeled "Diversión y Alegría y Diversión", they may have mixed up the AFM contracts...

 

ha! I noticed Hal used timbales in place of regular 'rack toms' (or whatever they're called) on lots of '60s rock songs. you can hear em in 'FFF'.

you can see them on his kit in this photo:

Very interesting and a great catch, I never noticed that single drum in that oft-seen photo!

The confusing thing is that Hal had probably the biggest drum kit of its day, just massive amounts of toms and everything else depending on the gig. Hal was something of a pioneer in how his toms sounded, because he'd remove the bottom head on them, and also use tuned/pitched "Concert Toms" which don't have bottom heads as his regular toms...drummers and their setups are too damn confusing, but the idea is that Hal doing this led to certain things being sold by drum companies in the 70's and beyond, apparently. So his kit with "Concert Toms", tuned specifically and having no bottom heads, may have been the Timbale sound rather than actual Timbale drums like Tito would play, but I can't say for sure.

Great eye on that photo!

Both of the 'toms' he has in this photo are timbales (note the smaller size).

I'm not an expert on drums, but the 'concert' toms as you described would basically make them slightly longer timbales! Using timbales may have just been just an easier way to get a brighter, punchier tom sound.

I was going to say someone should ask Hal about the toms/timbales while he's still around to answer; but then I read( way later than the rest of you, I'm sure) that Hal had to approve all the "wrecking crew" takes before Brian would go with them, and I realized he sounds just like another CK, so why bother

[guitarfool2002]

Both of the 'toms' he has in this photo are timbales (note the smaller size).

I'm not an expert on drums, but the 'concert' toms as you described would basically make them slightly longer timbales! Using timbales may have just been just an easier way to get a brighter, punchier tom sound.

That's about all it is, right? The drummers' terminology gives me a headache, too many similar items and pieces of equipment with different names.     There is no easy way to pin down any given setup of Hal's, too many variables. Do you hear timbales on Hal's more famous drum grooves and fills? That's what makes that photo stand out, unless I'm not tuned in I hear mostly standard toms on most of Hal's better-known grooves.

Check out Hal's drum set from the 70's, that massive one. Wild. His blue kit from the 60's is in the Musicians' Hall Of Fame, alongside Lyle Ritz's bass and other iconic gear.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Being a drummer: to my ears, it's someone playing the drum-kit on I Get Around while someone else plays brushes on a snare..... or timbale, but it cuts like a snare.... On Fun Fun Fun, I only hear one guy on a drum-kit unless Brian had Hal just do extra fills n such, but it still sounds like one guy, with someone else doing tambourine.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I wonder if the double drums on FFF is Brian imitating what he'd seen at J&D sessions?  Would that work chronologically? 

It is interesting that one of the wrenches is the session credit puzzle is the preponderance of doubled or tripled instruments.  People look at the musicians that were there and make deductions, which don't always play out on tape.  So you see Ray Pohlman, Carol Kaye, Bill Pitman, and Lyle Ritz at a session and you think, Carol on Fender Bass, Lyle on Upright, and Ray and Bill on guitars.  But then you listen to the tape and discover that one of them is playing a second bass, either Fender or Dano.  Or sometimes Billy Strange ends up playing tambourine.  And as has been mentioned, it was not uncommon for Ray Pohlman and Al to be playing bass on the same track, with Al being unlisted on the AFM, or as an afterthought assumed to play guitar.

That's when tapes are the most valuable.  But even those require active listening.  I'm shocked how bad the research process was for the Pet Sounds credits.  Those tapes were wholly available, and thoroughly excerpted on the box set, and all it would take is one listen to show that the credits on, say, "That's Not Me" are totally inaccurate.  Or to hear that there's no ukulele on I'm Waiting for the Day.

Oh well!

[monicker]

So can someone reiterate which are the exact sections of the 45 edit of GV that Carl is playing bass on? I’ve never seen this sync up of the film footage and the session audio.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I wonder if the double drums on FFF is Brian imitating what he'd seen at J&D sessions?  Would that work chronologically? 

It is interesting that one of the wrenches is the session credit puzzle is the preponderance of doubled or tripled instruments.  People look at the musicians that were there and make deductions, which don't always play out on tape.  So you see Ray Pohlman, Carol Kaye, Bill Pitman, and Lyle Ritz at a session and you think, Carol on Fender Bass, Lyle on Upright, and Ray and Bill on guitars.  But then you listen to the tape and discover that one of them is playing a second bass, either Fender or Dano.  Or sometimes Billy Strange ends up playing tambourine.  And as has been mentioned, it was not uncommon for Ray Pohlman and Al to be playing bass on the same track, with Al being unlisted on the AFM, or as an afterthought assumed to play guitar.

That's when tapes are the most valuable.  But even those require active listening.  I'm shocked how bad the research process was for the Pet Sounds credits.  Those tapes were wholly available, and thoroughly excerpted on the box set, and all it would take is one listen to show that the credits on, say, "That's Not Me" are totally inaccurate.  Or to hear that there's no ukulele on I'm Waiting for the Day.

Oh well!

So, what's the line-up on "That's Not Me"?

[gfac22]

Being a drummer: to my ears, it's someone playing the drum-kit on I Get Around while someone else plays brushes on a snare..... or timbale, but it cuts like a snare.... On Fun Fun Fun, I only hear one guy on a drum-kit unless Brian had Hal just do extra fills n such, but it still sounds like one guy, with someone else doing tambourine.

I thought the same about Hawaii, sounds like brushes on timbales.  If sticks were being used it would be a much different sound.