Beach Boys MK 1...how'd they perform?

[Jon Stebbins]

One of the things that came up in my conversation with Al yesterday is something that never gets any mention by BB's people "in the know"...What did the Beach Boys look like on stage during their first series of local gigs before Al dropped out? Picture this...Al and Carl on one mic...with Al playing the standup bass and Carl srumming his Kay guitar, Brian and Mike on the other mic...neither playing an instrument. Dennis playing a minimal kit to the rear, probably with brushes.

"We had no idea how to present ourselves live, we didn't even rent a piano for Brian...we had to learn on the fly," says Al. "Most bands rehearse their act, then they gig for awhile, and then they record something. We were just the opposite...we made a hit record, and then realized we'd have to perform it in front of people. I wanted us to be an acoustic  folk group, that was my concept...I resisted the rock and roll thing. When I came back in '63 everything had changed to a totally electric sound with Carl and Dave's Fender guitars. It's not really what I wanted, but everything was in motion by then."   

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

That's very interesting.  Al has said that he learned everything by doing it after the band had formed, in other words, just as you say, it was a matter of learning to sing and play guitar and such as he went along, rather than honing skill and then going out and performing, which is a weird concept to me.  But maybe that's the way to do it.

Had Al played guitar before he joined the Beach Boys?  He's sort of made it seem like he didn't, but if that's true that'd be sensational.

Certainly Brian hadn't really played bass.  It's scary how fast he picked up the bass.  I think it was Brian's unerring sense of time and meter that helped him, he was able to power a rhythm section, be it with his left hand on piano or on bass, just because his time was so good.  He could have been playing unpitched thumps on bass and still made it move.

Dennis came a long way in a short time too.

Very inspirational.

[Jon Stebbins]

Al did play the guitar prior to the BB's...there's photos of him with the Islanders sporting an acoustic...I just doubt he ever played any Chuck Berry rhythm riffs until later. I agree it was scary how fast Brian picked up the bass...like overnight. Another scary thing Al mentioned...he recalled when Brian called him in spring '63 to come back and  take over on bass, cause Brian said, "I don't want to go out on this tour,"...Al claimed he had virtually no rerhearsal or preparation...just stepped in and again learned on the fly. Dave recalls Al rehearsing with the BB's for a bit before he went out...but Al only recalls getting the call...and suddenly being back on stage with the guys. He also agreed that the best BB's scenario for Brian was a BB's group that had both David and Al...allowing Brian the freedom to miss gigs when he felt overwhelmed. Murry had a problem with both Al and David...the "outsiders"...and even considered Mike an outsider. Strange...but Murry's intense sense of keeping things "in the family" had a negative effect on Brian because it increased his workload...and exposed him to constant stage fright. Plus the pressure...Brian wanted both Al and Dave...he wanted Mike singing lead...Murry gave Brian static about all of it.   

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

How anybody could question the incredible natural talent of Al was beyond me, but after this thread it's even more beyond me.  I've believed for a long time that Al could have made it without Brian, in terms of talent.

[Jon Stebbins]

There is no doubt that Brian had a lot of "natural" talent around him...and Al was probably the most mature talent in 61/62. He feels strongly that he and Brian started the group...and its hard to argue with that when hearing his perspective. Al is also humble enough to acknowledge the BB's became a major hit when they took off in a direction he wasn't completely thrilled with. He totally gives Carl and David their credit for bringing the Fender sound to the table. He says all the guys dug doo-wop, "that's the one thing we all had in common." But it's interesting that Brian managed to incorporate ALL of the influences into the music...it was such a hybrid. The Doo-wop, and black vocal group music (mostly from Mike), the jazz influence(Brian's love for Gershwin and the Four Freshmen), the Fender, Surf, Chuck Berry style from Carl and Dave, the folk aesthetic and tight up-tempo harmony blend from Al...and finally the cultural infusion, street cred, and passion for fun from Dennis. Brian took ALL of it...and created something completely unique...he wasted nothing. 

[jazzfascist]

I guess it shows that if you have some good original ideas you can go very far, on the other hand I also remember that I've read that an owner of one the places, that the early BBs performed, said that they looked and performed very badly, so maybe they needed to go the more flashy rock'n'roll direction, to become as big as they eventually became.

Søren

[Reverend Joshua Sloane]

I wonder how far the Beach Boys may have gone following Al's hopes for them being a folky kind of group. He brought Sloop John B to the table, I wonder if he knew Brian would change it from simple folk tune to the complex production that it is on Pet Sounds.

[MBE]

Jon did you ask Al if there were any photos taken before he quit the first time? I know Candix was a small label but isn't it odd that they could get a record all the way to #75 and not have at least one publicity shot? Also any luck on finding out who M. Horn was from POB?

[Mitchell]

I wonder how far the Beach Boys may have gone following Al's hopes for them being a folky kind of group. He brought Sloop John B to the table, I wonder if he knew Brian would change it from simple folk tune to the complex production that it is on Pet Sounds.

Al did show Brian how he could change it up a little and give it some "personality". Did he envision what Brian would do? That I do not know, but he certainly helped it along.

[Jeff Mason]

I wonder how far the Beach Boys may have gone following Al's hopes for them being a folky kind of group. He brought Sloop John B to the table, I wonder if he knew Brian would change it from simple folk tune to the complex production that it is on Pet Sounds.

Al did show Brian how he could change it up a little and give it some "personality". Did he envision what Brian would do? That I do not know, but he certainly helped it along.

Isn't he seen in one of the videos saying that he thought they might add something to it, but he never dreamed that Brian would make it sound the way he did?  Sort of both -- he made suggestions, but Brian went beyond expectations.

[Jon Stebbins]

Jon did you ask Al if there were any photos taken before he quit the first time? I know Candix was a small label but isn't it odd that they could get a record all the way to #75 and not have at least one publicity shot? Also any luck on finding out who M. Horn was from POB?

Al says he remembers a group photo of the BB's before he left the first time...but no one...including Al, has ever seen it since the early days...perhaps Brian has it somewhere. And yeah it is wierd...but remember the BB's MK I were only around for a very short time...I don't think the BB's really solidified as an "act" until mid '62. Also... David joined before Surfin' had actually peaked on the charts. The earliest photo I know of is March '62 at a gig...with Dave already on guitar.

[MBE]

Thanks Jon you know that 1964 photo session with Murry where he has all the sheet music and photos on the wall? I really scanned that to see if I could make out anything unique. Sadly I didn't, but if we can somehow get any local or trade ads Candix may have placed we may luck out. Did Hawthorne have a local paper at the time?

[Jon Stebbins]

I do have some of the earliest BB's articles printed in the local Hawthorne paper and the Centinela Sunday Press...these are mid '62 after Surfin' Safari has been released, and in the bios they act as if Dave was on Surfin'...as they don't mention any personell changes. Also a photo of the BB's with Dave is on the sheet music for Surfin'. A group photo of the BB's pre-Dave is a grail like item...but it hasn't surfaced in all these years.

[HeyJude]

Hi Jon. I was wondering if you've given thought to approaching Al about doing a biography from his perspective along the lines of your Dennis and David Marks books. I know Al has spoken a few times in recent years about wanting to do a book from his point of view, and he apparently is confortable dealing with you (I'm only assuming this based on the fact that you're able to call him up and talk to him, so let me know if I'm assuming too much!). If you could do an Al book (or if Al would do one himself), it would really be the first time we'd get a first-hand look at virtually the entire history of the group.

Al doesn't seem to work particularly fast on some of these projects, so I don't know if such a thing can ever happen.

By the way, two quick questions about the new book: First, do you have a release date yet? Apologies if I've missed it. I e-mailed to what I believe is the publisher asking about pre-order details, but never got anything back. Will you announce any pre-release sales here? I'd definitely like to get it as soon as it's available anywhere.

Secondly, were you able to interview Al directly for the David Marks book? For that matter, did you get any other BB's to provide any interviews?

[Jon Stebbins]

Hi Jon. I was wondering if you've given thought to approaching Al about doing a biography from his perspective along the lines of your Dennis and David Marks books. I know Al has spoken a few times in recent years about wanting to do a book from his point of view, and he apparently is confortable dealing with you (I'm only assuming this based on the fact that you're able to call him up and talk to him, so let me know if I'm assuming too much!). If you could do an Al book (or if Al would do one himself), it would really be the first time we'd get a first-hand look at virtually the entire history of the group.

Al doesn't seem to work particularly fast on some of these projects, so I don't know if such a thing can ever happen.

By the way, two quick questions about the new book: First, do you have a release date yet? Apologies if I've missed it. I e-mailed to what I believe is the publisher asking about pre-order details, but never got anything back. Will you announce any pre-release sales here? I'd definitely like to get it as soon as it's available anywhere.

Secondly, were you able to interview Al directly for the David Marks book? For that matter, did you get any other BB's to provide any interviews?

I think Al has a concept for his own autobiography...something about the western migration of his family, and what happened as a result.

I did interview Al directly for Dave's book...he was very generous with his time and thoughts.

As far as a release date for the DM book...we're waiting a little bit longer to let Peter Carlin's book have its moment. Not that the two books will be alike...but its just a matter of being polite. Our orig. target release date turned out to be right on top of his...and since we're in no big hurry...we just thought it might be a nice thing to wait a few months. So we're looking at late summer. If you sent in your contact info you will be notified by the publisher once the firm launch date is set...and thanks for asking!

[Emdeeh]

Jon, will you be reconsidering pushing your publication date up, if the reports Amazon is sending about Peter's book being delayed until mid-September are true?

For the record, Peter doesn't think the schedule is being changed, according to a post he made today on the blue board. But why would Amazon be asking everyone to change their pre-orders if the publication date isn't changing?

You think they'd tell the author first, wouldn't you..... 

[Jon Stebbins]

Hi Emdeeh! Nice to hear from you.

Well...put it this way. If Peter's book keeps getting pushed back...ours may get pushed up a little bit. We'll have to see how this situation plays out. I feel sorry for any author who puts their heart into an effort and has these kind of issues to deal with upon the birth of their baby. I hope they don't torture him anymore.

Most publishers have a traditional release season...Spring or Fall. Remember my Dennnis Wilson book came out in April of 2000...the publisher kindly pushed it to the front of the spring season which was nice for me...no waiting. The spring release season is at its tail end by June. So if there's any delay...Peter's book probably gets pushed into the Fall release schedule...which starts in Sept. I'm just speculating here as I have no inside info on Peter's publisher...but this is the "normal" routine...either you make Spring or you fall...to Fall. I'm working with an independent publisher this time so we have total flexibility in that dept. There isn't a pack of releases I'm grouped with. Ours is the one and only book we have to worry about. But I remember what it was like working with a larger publisher, and once they have your signature on a contract the power is all theirs.   

[HeyJude]

Thanks for answering my questions, Jon. Here's a totally loaded question: *If* Al wanted you to do an authorized biography, do you think you'd do it? On the one hand, he perhaps doesn't have some of the mystique or interest that Dennis or David Marks have. At the same time, he was there for the entire time and he's probably the only person who was always there and is still lucid and willing to recount everything that happened.

One other question related to early BB touring lineups: I'm sorry if I've missed mention of this elsewhere, but when was David Marks' last show with the BB's (during the 60's of course, not his stint in the late 90's)? If this is info you're saving for people to see in the new book, I understand. The reason I ask is because I just came across an old photocopy of a page from a local high school yearbook (from Cupertino, CA to be exact). I've had this for years, but just recently looked at it again. It features pictures of a show the BB's did at this high school. The date is February 28th (and while I don't have a year listed on this page, it has to be 1964), and the pictures show a four-piece BB lineup of only Mike, Dennis, Carl, and Al. Carl is playing his Jaguar, and Al is playing bass.

How often did the post-Marks BB's perform with Al and without Brian or any other replacement? For some reason, I've had it in my mind that the BB's were always a five piece one way or the other apart from one-off instances. I've always thought it was Dennis, Carl, and Mike plus David and Brian, or Al and David, or Al and Brian, or then Al and Glen Campbell or Bruce by 1965, etc. I'm sure I've read over the years that there were times in the post-Marks era that Brian missed shows so that the BB's went on as a four-piece. I guess I just never thought it was that common. The show I'm looking at was probably some little promotional thing. Certainly a high school show was something Brian could have missed as it wasn't a high profile event. Brian was playing with them less than a month later in what was later released as "The Lost Concert." Has David Marks mentioned to you a lot of instances of playing local high schools all around the country? I would think it would have been easy for the BB's to play high schools in the southern California area, but I didn't know they did a lot of that in other areas.

Anyway, this was just something that struck me all of a sudden recently. In the past, I've never been especially interested in the formative years of the BB's (perhaps having things like the Gaines books in years past meant for better or worse that it was easier to learn about the sordid 70's era), but the annoucement of your David Marks book has certainly led me to find a great deal more interest in the formative years.

(By the way, if anybody is interested, I can post a scan of this yearbook page. It's only noteworthy because it shows a four-piece lineup, and Al playing bass. Otherwise, the pics and bit of text are right out of the "Concert" album type of thing.)

[Jon Stebbins]

Hey Jude...that's a fascinating instance of a four piece BB's you mention. And I'd love to see the photo. I think this is simply a result of Brian either not wanting, or not being able to play a show in very early '64. It happened a few times in '64...but not many. This kind of underlines the fact that Brian really appreciated the BB's having Al around in '63 to sub for him on bass when he didn't feel like performing live...which happened quite a bit...although Brian did his share of shows too. Al kind of acted as an auxilary Beach Boy for half a year...playing some of the gigs on bass, and doing studio work starting with the third LP. I do have the exact date of Dave's last show(his mom kept records of the gigs)...since it gets a big buildup in the book...let's keep it "specifically" quiet for now. I can say that his tenure starts a bit earlier and ends a bit later than BB's journalists have regulary told us.

The only other instance I know of a four piece BB's came right after Al left the first time in early '62...they played a couple of gigs as a four piece right before David joined.

Regarding Al and a book...I think he wants to do his own thing. My style is probably a bit irreverant for a fellow like Al. In the case of Dave's book...it's a really wild and raw story...no punches pulled. Dave truly supports the fact that I tell it like it is...even if it doesn't always make him look so great. I just don't see Al appreciating that in the same way David does. You'll see what I mean when you read the book.

BTW...the formative years are truly interesting once the usual myths get debunked and the real facts get presented. You'll see how it affected everything that came later.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Please post the scan!

[Aegir]

I would lvoe to see that picture.

[Jon Stebbins]

Just FYI...the David Marks book will have several photos of the BB's in '63 with Carl and Dave on guitar and Al on bass...all from different concerts...plenty with Brian on bass too.

[HeyJude]

The yearbook page of photos I discussed above is posted at this address:

http://www.geocities.com/beachboysopinionpage/bblive64.html

This is a scan of a photocopy of the yearbook page. The quality isn't super, but you can definitely make out what's going on.

I should note that these photos aren't total proof that it was a four-piece band performing. In fact, there is another microphone in place where Brian's would normally be, and it seems to be in a taller position as his would be. But I still think Brian is likely not at the show. First of all, he isn't seen in any of the pictures. I would think they would have ended up getting Brian in at least one of these pics if he was at the show. Secondly, Al is playing bass. Would Al have ever played bass at a show in early 1964 if Brian was also at the show? I suppose Brian could have been off to the side playing piano or something, thus neccesitating Al playing bass and explaining why Brian isn't in any shots. But this doesn't seem very likely.

My guess would be that perhaps Brian's absence occured at the last second at this show. Thus, they had it setup for him to play with them, but then went on without him.

In short, I'm about 95% sure that this is a four-piece band without Brian. I'm also pretty sure that at some point they were either expecting Brian to show up, or at least had a mic set up incase he showed up. It's kind of weird that Al and Carl are sharing a mic when there's another one available. Who knows. I got this yearbook page from somebody who was at this show, but that person is not with us anymore, so I can't ask if they remember whether Brian was there or not.

In any event, we definitely can see that Al is playing bass in these pics.

[Jon Stebbins]

Thanks Hey Jude...these are cool shots. It definitely looks like Brian's mic is there and waiting for him. Also...note that Al is playing Brian's white precision bass. We have several shots of the BB's where Al is playing Brian's orig. '62 sunburst Fender bass...and only one with him playing the '63 white bass...you'd think perhaps this is somehow chronological, but in fact it defies that...as the latest shot with the AL, Carl, Dave, Mike Dennis lineup shows him playing the earlier instrument...while an earlier shot shows him playing the white one. Thanks for the cool scan.

[HeyJude]

Digging up this topic from ten years ago mostly just to re-post the pictures in question being discussed in the above posts. But I was also able to confirm from a post on another forum from someone who was there that Brian indeed was not at this afternoon high school show (though he did play with the band that night at the main concert):