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Author Topic: "Sweet and Bitter" and "Out In The Country"  (Read 31131 times)
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« Reply #150 on: January 07, 2013, 10:41:23 AM »

OK, had a quick word with David. Interesting. He remembers meeting DG at Brian's house a few times as someone who wanted to work with Brian. However, he wasn't aware of anything that was recorded at the home studio, and thus doesn't recall the tracks in question. Business as usual in the World of Wilson: one question answered, another one thrown up.

Ok, so at least the dude is confirmed to have known Brian during the time period in question.
Yes. So he is the real deal, as is the music. Thanks to Mr. Doe for the investigation!

Huh!  Go figure
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« Reply #151 on: January 07, 2013, 11:44:36 AM »

OK, had a quick word with David. Interesting. He remembers meeting DG at Brian's house a few times as someone who wanted to work with Brian. However, he wasn't aware of anything that was recorded at the home studio, and thus doesn't recall the tracks in question. Business as usual in the World of Wilson: one question answered, another one thrown up.

Ok, so at least the dude is confirmed to have known Brian during the time period in question.
Yes. So he is the real deal, as is the music. Thanks to Mr. Doe for the investigation!

Hello ?  David remembers the guy, but not the tracks he's alleged to have played on. DS is a bit like the other David, great memory for events but close to useless when it come to dates.  Grin
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« Reply #152 on: January 07, 2013, 01:49:36 PM »

OK, had a quick word with David. Interesting. He remembers meeting DG at Brian's house a few times as someone who wanted to work with Brian. However, he wasn't aware of anything that was recorded at the home studio, and thus doesn't recall the tracks in question. Business as usual in the World of Wilson: one question answered, another one thrown up.

Ok, so at least the dude is confirmed to have known Brian during the time period in question.
Yes. So he is the real deal, as is the music. Thanks to Mr. Doe for the investigation!

Hello ?  David remembers the guy, but not the tracks he's alleged to have played on. DS is a bit like the other David, great memory for events but close to useless when it come to dates.  Grin

Oh so hard to please you are AGD.  Sorry if you thought I meant you were validating the tunes. Obviously you weren't.
Seeing he knew Brian and that you are sure the "Sweet and Bitter" vocal is Mike, I'm tending to think the songs are legit.  
As you've pointed out though, the facts from the videos seem shaky.  I'm just bailing on my hoax theory at this point.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 02:37:01 PM by SurfRiderHawaii » Logged

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« Reply #153 on: January 07, 2013, 03:07:29 PM »

I think I prefer the dirge version...

Uh, yeah.

Also, yeah, Brian was actually pretty well known for his fleeting contributions with unknowns. "Teeter Totter Love", the country album he was helping a guy produce (can't think of the name off-hand), the "Amy" version of "Let The Wind Blow", etc. etc. etc. etc. Let's not forget his countless productions in the early 60s outside the Beach Boys too, although most of those folks were obviously a little more established.

Re. collaborations with unknowns, there is a story of a ghost writer for It's About Time. I read it here maybe? Could be hoax or true. Why the BBs would lift a song for an album cut from an outisder and pay him out of the credits is beyond my understanding.
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« Reply #154 on: January 07, 2013, 03:28:13 PM »


[/quote]

 "SOMS" came pretty well out of nowhere,
[/quote]

spent days thinking about it, and now i gotta ask...
what is SOMS?
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« Reply #155 on: January 07, 2013, 03:33:33 PM »

Soulful
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Man
Shunshine
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« Reply #156 on: January 07, 2013, 04:06:14 PM »

Thanks for going "behind the curtain" for us, Andrew. I'm sure some more information will surface on this; possibly Stephen Desper will remember some isolated detail, or someone will actually be bold enough to track down one or more of the Goldbergs and see if they can sort out some of the information.

Or perhaps they'll give up the "Brian (chatter)" track--which will turn out to be sped up a la the famous portions of "She's Goin' Bald" and will prove to be of absolutely no help whatsoever...
Thud
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« Reply #157 on: January 07, 2013, 04:11:46 PM »

Soulful
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Man
Shunshine

Ha! I was just going to sleep and the answer came to me. Night night
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« Reply #158 on: January 07, 2013, 06:01:35 PM »

I think I prefer the dirge version...

Uh, yeah.

Also, yeah, Brian was actually pretty well known for his fleeting contributions with unknowns. "Teeter Totter Love", the country album he was helping a guy produce (can't think of the name off-hand), the "Amy" version of "Let The Wind Blow", etc. etc. etc. etc. Let's not forget his countless productions in the early 60s outside the Beach Boys too, although most of those folks were obviously a little more established.

Re. collaborations with unknowns, there is a story of a ghost writer for It's About Time. I read it here maybe? Could be hoax or true. Why the BBs would lift a song for an album cut from an outisder and pay him out of the credits is beyond my understanding.

Bob Burchman is credited for It's About Time.
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« Reply #159 on: January 07, 2013, 07:05:06 PM »

I made a comment the other day about Out In The Country that went overlooked, so I'll mention it again, as I'm curios if anybody else noticed this. Part of the background harmonies seems to be taken right from the coda of Wouldn't It Be Nice. SO much so, that I wonder if it wasn't actually sampled from the original WIBN Pet Sounds recording. Can anybody else hear it?

I don't hear it.
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« Reply #160 on: January 07, 2013, 07:09:25 PM »

I think I prefer the dirge version...

Uh, yeah.

Also, yeah, Brian was actually pretty well known for his fleeting contributions with unknowns. "Teeter Totter Love", the country album he was helping a guy produce (can't think of the name off-hand), the "Amy" version of "Let The Wind Blow", etc. etc. etc. etc. Let's not forget his countless productions in the early 60s outside the Beach Boys too, although most of those folks were obviously a little more established.

Re. collaborations with unknowns, there is a story of a ghost writer for It's About Time. I read it here maybe? Could be hoax or true. Why the BBs would lift a song for an album cut from an outisder and pay him out of the credits is beyond my understanding.

I'm starting to think they may have done this more than most of us would be comfortable with accepting. Probably not, but who knows? "Never Learn Not to Love" is a good example. I also met a guy who worked at a CVS pharmacy in Florida once, and he randomly mentioned that he wrote 'Getcha Back' when we were talking about music. The guy said he knew Carl Wilson and they bought the rights to the song from him. Always thought he was just making $hit up, but who knows!?!

It's probably much easier in terms of publishing to just pay someone for a song rather than setting them up with their own deal.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 07:10:52 PM by DonnyL » Logged

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« Reply #161 on: January 07, 2013, 08:02:25 PM »

Yeah, I helped write the expunged interludes to "Hey Little Tomboy" and still haven't received my just desserts!
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« Reply #162 on: January 07, 2013, 11:20:10 PM »

I think I prefer the dirge version...

Uh, yeah.

Also, yeah, Brian was actually pretty well known for his fleeting contributions with unknowns. "Teeter Totter Love", the country album he was helping a guy produce (can't think of the name off-hand), the "Amy" version of "Let The Wind Blow", etc. etc. etc. etc. Let's not forget his countless productions in the early 60s outside the Beach Boys too, although most of those folks were obviously a little more established.

Re. collaborations with unknowns, there is a story of a ghost writer for It's About Time. I read it here maybe? Could be hoax or true. Why the BBs would lift a song for an album cut from an outisder and pay him out of the credits is beyond my understanding.

Bob Burchman is credited and was interviewed many years ago about his involvement. There was a barber's chair involved.
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« Reply #163 on: January 08, 2013, 03:48:43 AM »

I think I prefer the dirge version...

Uh, yeah.

Also, yeah, Brian was actually pretty well known for his fleeting contributions with unknowns. "Teeter Totter Love", the country album he was helping a guy produce (can't think of the name off-hand), the "Amy" version of "Let The Wind Blow", etc. etc. etc. etc. Let's not forget his countless productions in the early 60s outside the Beach Boys too, although most of those folks were obviously a little more established.

Re. collaborations with unknowns, there is a story of a ghost writer for It's About Time. I read it here maybe? Could be hoax or true. Why the BBs would lift a song for an album cut from an outisder and pay him out of the credits is beyond my understanding.

I'm starting to think they may have done this more than most of us would be comfortable with accepting. Probably not, but who knows? "Never Learn Not to Love" is a good example. I also met a guy who worked at a CVS pharmacy in Florida once, and he randomly mentioned that he wrote 'Getcha Back' when we were talking about music. The guy said he knew Carl Wilson and they bought the rights to the song from him. Always thought he was just making $hit up, but who knows!?!

It's probably much easier in terms of publishing to just pay someone for a song rather than setting them up with their own deal.

It's also very illegal, and would open the band up to a lot of trouble if the original writer later decided to present evidence (like sealed, dated working tapes) that they'd written the song.

As for your acquaintance having written Getcha Back... Occam's razor applies here. That song is a patchwork, made up entirely of musical references to other songs (I count, off the top of my head, musical ideas from Uptown Girl, Sail On Sailor, Don't Worry Baby, Do It Again and Hungry Heart. There may be others) -- all either nostalgic-sounding then-recent hits or old Beach Boys songs. That's very much Mike Love's style of thinking. Given that it's a song that pretty much *any* quarter-competent songwriter could have written, it seems far more likely that Mike and Terry Melcher wrote it than that they would buy a song like that -- *especially* since Terry Melcher is given credit (why give credit to a non-band-member if he didn't write the song?)
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« Reply #164 on: January 08, 2013, 08:04:56 AM »

These are great...though I was hoping "Out in the Country" was the 3 Dog Night tune! The BBs could have done a nice job on a cover of that...
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« Reply #165 on: January 08, 2013, 10:58:00 AM »

I think I prefer the dirge version...

Uh, yeah.

Also, yeah, Brian was actually pretty well known for his fleeting contributions with unknowns. "Teeter Totter Love", the country album he was helping a guy produce (can't think of the name off-hand), the "Amy" version of "Let The Wind Blow", etc. etc. etc. etc. Let's not forget his countless productions in the early 60s outside the Beach Boys too, although most of those folks were obviously a little more established.

Re. collaborations with unknowns, there is a story of a ghost writer for It's About Time. I read it here maybe? Could be hoax or true. Why the BBs would lift a song for an album cut from an outisder and pay him out of the credits is beyond my understanding.

I'm starting to think they may have done this more than most of us would be comfortable with accepting. Probably not, but who knows? "Never Learn Not to Love" is a good example. I also met a guy who worked at a CVS pharmacy in Florida once, and he randomly mentioned that he wrote 'Getcha Back' when we were talking about music. The guy said he knew Carl Wilson and they bought the rights to the song from him. Always thought he was just making $hit up, but who knows!?!

It's probably much easier in terms of publishing to just pay someone for a song rather than setting them up with their own deal.

It's also very illegal, and would open the band up to a lot of trouble if the original writer later decided to present evidence (like sealed, dated working tapes) that they'd written the song.

As for your acquaintance having written Getcha Back... Occam's razor applies here. That song is a patchwork, made up entirely of musical references to other songs (I count, off the top of my head, musical ideas from Uptown Girl, Sail On Sailor, Don't Worry Baby, Do It Again and Hungry Heart. There may be others) -- all either nostalgic-sounding then-recent hits or old Beach Boys songs. That's very much Mike Love's style of thinking. Given that it's a song that pretty much *any* quarter-competent songwriter could have written, it seems far more likely that Mike and Terry Melcher wrote it than that they would buy a song like that -- *especially* since Terry Melcher is given credit (why give credit to a non-band-member if he didn't write the song?)


It's not really illegal if both parties are in agreement, and the group has most certainly done this at least once ('Never Learn Not to Love').

As for the guy at the drug store ... yes, I most certainly did not (and do not) believe him, just exploring the possibilities.
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« Reply #166 on: January 08, 2013, 11:25:08 AM »

Not to derail here, but here's part of the interview with Bob Burchman by Jim Robinson. Can't find the rest of it.....and can't find the part about the barber's chair.

I wrote the basic lyric for the song "It's About Time" on July 2nd 1970,when I was 24 years old. I met Dennis Wilson a short time before then, perhaps in May or June of that year,
through one of my closest and dearest friends from Junior High and High School, Barbara Charren, who would soon become Dennis's wife, and mother of two of his children, Michael and Carl. Barbara had met Dennis one night while she was working the cash register at Hamburger Hamlet restaurant in Westwood Village, here in L.A. I was living in Hawaii with my
wife and newborn son at the time when Dennis and Barbara started dating, and so it wasn't until we returned to Los Angeles that I finally got to meet 'the new boyfriend'. I must admit that I was not a huge Beach Boy fan at that time. My musical leanings were more toward Marvin Gaye, Otis Redding, James Brown, Sly and the Family Stone, Smokey Robinson and The Miracles, The Beatles, Bob Dylan, and Joni Mitchell. And I had had the impression from watching early Beach Boy film footage, that Dennis was a bit
too cocky and not the world's greatest drummer. So I was not really expecting to like Dennis all that much, when my wife and I invited Barbara and him over for dinner to meet. But the truth is I liked him. He was quite charming, low key, and very funny. We sat on cushions around a low Japanese style table in our living room eating some sort of asian vegetarian
cuisine, as I remember. At one point in the evening Dennis mentioned to me that Barbara had told him what a good poet and lyricist that I was, and asked me if I would recite something for him to hear. I recited two or three lyrics that I were fresh in my mind, and Dennis was blown away. "Wow! I wasn't expecting that", he said. He went on to tell me that he was working on a track for a new Beach Boy album, and that he wanted me to come down to the studio and write the lyric for this piece. Within a week I was at Brian
Wilson's Bel Air estate/studio to hear the work in progress. Dennis ran off a cassette tape copy for me, making me promise not to let anyone hear it. I took it home with me and listened to the track a few times to get a feel for what the music was saying to me. Then I drove to shady spot in Benedict Canyon here in L.A., parked my car and began writing, as I played and replayed the track over and over on my portable cassette player. The lyric literally took me 20 minutes to complete. It came in a flash. I don't think I've ever written a lyric that quickly since.
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I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what shes like, and I can feel how right shed be for me. Its weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what shes picking up from me. I hope its good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
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« Reply #167 on: January 08, 2013, 12:37:20 PM »

The part about how he was more or less pressured to sign off on the song (missing on the post below, understandably as it was from a different interview) contained the bit about the barber's chair in Brian's house.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 12:38:11 PM by Andrew G. Doe » Logged

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« Reply #168 on: January 08, 2013, 12:44:44 PM »

Not to derail here, but here's part of the interview with Bob Burchman by Jim Robinson. Can't find the rest of it.....and can't find the part about the barber's chair.

I wrote the basic lyric for the song "It's About Time" on July 2nd 1970,when I was 24 years old. I met Dennis Wilson a short time before then, perhaps in May or June of that year,
through one of my closest and dearest friends from Junior High and High School, Barbara Charren, who would soon become Dennis's wife, and mother of two of his children, Michael and Carl. Barbara had met Dennis one night while she was working the cash register at Hamburger Hamlet restaurant in Westwood Village, here in L.A. I was living in Hawaii with my
wife and newborn son at the time when Dennis and Barbara started dating, and so it wasn't until we returned to Los Angeles that I finally got to meet 'the new boyfriend'. I must admit that I was not a huge Beach Boy fan at that time. My musical leanings were more toward Marvin Gaye, Otis Redding, James Brown, Sly and the Family Stone, Smokey Robinson and The Miracles, The Beatles, Bob Dylan, and Joni Mitchell. And I had had the impression from watching early Beach Boy film footage, that Dennis was a bit
too c*cky and not the world's greatest drummer. So I was not really expecting to like Dennis all that much, when my wife and I invited Barbara and him over for dinner to meet. But the truth is I liked him. He was quite charming, low key, and very funny. We sat on cushions around a low Japanese style table in our living room eating some sort of asian vegetarian
cuisine, as I remember. At one point in the evening Dennis mentioned to me that Barbara had told him what a good poet and lyricist that I was, and asked me if I would recite something for him to hear. I recited two or three lyrics that I were fresh in my mind, and Dennis was blown away. "Wow! I wasn't expecting that", he said. He went on to tell me that he was working on a track for a new Beach Boy album, and that he wanted me to come down to the studio and write the lyric for this piece. Within a week I was at Brian
Wilson's Bel Air estate/studio to hear the work in progress. Dennis ran off a cassette tape copy for me, making me promise not to let anyone hear it. I took it home with me and listened to the track a few times to get a feel for what the music was saying to me. Then I drove to shady spot in Benedict Canyon here in L.A., parked my car and began writing, as I played and replayed the track over and over on my portable cassette player. The lyric literally took me 20 minutes to complete. It came in a flash. I don't think I've ever written a lyric that quickly since.

Evidently there isn't any rest to it. That's all Jim ever posted( if you're referring to this exchange:  http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=24444 )
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« Reply #169 on: January 08, 2013, 12:46:48 PM »

Here's the full piece: http://www.pipeline-operaglass.moonfruit.com/#/its-about-time/4517958509
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« Reply #170 on: January 08, 2013, 12:54:27 PM »

Well, yeah, I tried that a bunch of times and the link goes nowhere!  If you can see it, please post it here. It refers to an interview with Bob in 2004.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 12:56:59 PM by Mikie » Logged

I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what shes like, and I can feel how right shed be for me. Its weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what shes picking up from me. I hope its good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
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« Reply #171 on: January 08, 2013, 12:55:44 PM »


It's also very illegal, and would open the band up to a lot of trouble if the original writer later decided to present evidence (like sealed, dated working tapes) that they'd written the song.

As for your acquaintance having written Getcha Back... Occam's razor applies here. That song is a patchwork, made up entirely of musical references to other songs (I count, off the top of my head, musical ideas from Uptown Girl, Sail On Sailor, Don't Worry Baby, Do It Again and Hungry Heart. There may be others) -- all either nostalgic-sounding then-recent hits or old Beach Boys songs. That's very much Mike Love's style of thinking. Given that it's a song that pretty much *any* quarter-competent songwriter could have written, it seems far more likely that Mike and Terry Melcher wrote it than that they would buy a song like that -- *especially* since Terry Melcher is given credit (why give credit to a non-band-member if he didn't write the song?)


It's not really illegal if both parties are in agreement, and the group has most certainly done this at least once ('Never Learn Not to Love').

As for the guy at the drug store ... yes, I most certainly did not (and do not) believe him, just exploring the possibilities.

It is illegal no matter who agrees. Under US copyright law, you can't, as a creator, sell the copyright in a work unless it counts as 'work for hire', which has all sorts of conditions attached to it that the hypothetical situation doesn't match.

Obviously they did do it once, but that was supposedly at Manson's personal request -- and I imagine that could easily have made it very unlikely for them to do it again.

Of course, it's entirely possible, given the less-than-scrupulous way they dealt with songwriting credits, that some acquaintance of the band on occasion might have collaborated with Brian and then found his or her name mysteriously absent from the record label, but I think if they'd actually bought songs from other people on multiple occasions, we would have heard about it.
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« Reply #172 on: January 08, 2013, 12:57:22 PM »

Picking up from Mikie's post.....


"Actually the lyric itself had nothing to do with the personal lives of Brian or Dennis or any of the Beach Boys for that matter. The inspiration for the lyric came rather as an extension of my own personal spiritual journey, having been exposed to both the vanity of name and fame in the world of Contemporary Art and Rock Music, as well as the ancient eternal wisdom of the East. Biographers have falsely tried to credit Dennis for the message of this lyric, with his or Brian's drug problems and all. But the truth is, it was just a message that Dennis identified with. You might be interested to know how the initial draft of the lyric read, as Dennis first saw it:


I used to be a famous artist
proud as I could be
struggling to express myself
for the whole world to see

I used to blow my mind sky high
searching for the lost elation
little did I know the joy I was to find out
I am my only relation...

Oh I'm a-singin' in my heart
I am a-singin' in my heart
I am a singing in my heart of the Creation!

The Creation....Oh yeah
through which I play the part
of the open hearted laugh of realization...

And now I'm but a child who art
erect in humility
serving out of love everyone I meet
who is really me

Oh I'm a-singin' in my heart
I am a-singin' in my heart
I am a singing in my heart of the Creation!


It was Dennis's idea to hold the phrase "of the Creation" and run it into the next line, "Oh yeah...". The title, "It's About Time", was an after thought by Dennis. I didn't quite understand at the time where he was going with that title."

"I was not invited to the recording session of the song. But I did talk to Dennis by phone that day at the studio, to find out that Al Jardine added another whole other section to the lyric right there in the studio, without anyone advising me or getting my input. I must say that I felt a bit discounted and disrespected with how that went down. One would think that when collaborating on a song with someone, that before bringing in a third writer, that one would tell the original co-writer of his intention before doing so, wouldn't you say? But it was The Beach Boys after all, and I was not about to make waves, pardon the pun!

A few days later I was invited over to Brian's house. I was made to wait twenty minutes or so in a front room where Al Jardine, who completely ignored me, practiced "Sloop John B" on the guitar, six feet away from me. Then after that awkward wait, Dennis came and got me and brought me into the parlor where Brian had this beautiful barber chair. I had never seen anybody use a barber chair as a piece of furniture before. Anyway, all guys were there; Brian, Carl, Al, Mike, Dennis, and Bruce. Now all of a sudden I was the center of their attention. Brian said that he loved my lyric and that he wanted to put the song on their up coming album, as he and others congratulated me and patted me on the back. But he said that first I had to sign some papers so that they would have permission from me to release the song. I was led over to a table upon which sat a legal contract which I was to sign. I remembered someone once told me never to sign a contract without first having a lawyer read it. So looking at this multi-page contract with all these guys breathing down my neck, I said "Shouldn't I have a lawyer look this thing over before signing it?". "NO, NO!" was the united reply. "It's just a standard agreement to let us record your song", Dennis said.

Well, under some intimidating pressure, I signed it. And everyone was happy. It turns out that I signed all my publishing rights away, as well as agreeing to just 25% of the writer's share of royalties. What started out to be a song by just Dennis and me, 50/50, turned into a three way collaboration with Al, 33/33/33, to unwittingly become 25/25/25/25, with Carl Wilson in name only claiming 25%. You must have heard of the school of hard knocks. Well this was my first big lesson."
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 01:02:45 PM by seltaeb1012002 » Logged
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« Reply #173 on: January 08, 2013, 12:59:44 PM »

Thanks, Seltaeb. For some reason when I click that link it goes into the wild blue yonder and never can find anything.

Cool!
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I, I love the colorful clothes she wears, and she's already working on my brain. I only looked in her eyes, but I picked up something I just can't explain. I, I bet I know what shes like, and I can feel how right shed be for me. Its weird how she comes in so strong, and I wonder what shes picking up from me. I hope its good, good, good, good vibrations, yeah!!
seltaeb1012002
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« Reply #174 on: January 08, 2013, 01:07:21 PM »

Thanks, Seltaeb. For some reason when I click that link it goes into the wild blue yonder and never can find anything.

Cool!

No problemo.

Pretty shady move on the BB's part advising him not get a lawyer. No pub, no advance.. yikes. 'Tis the music BUSINESS.
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