Sandy Hook Elementary School Shootings

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Come off it. Let me ask you this: do you think that in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 that it was inappropriate to find out why the attacks happened?

Let me ask you another question: Do you seriously believe that it is strictly "the liberal community" that has made this event political, particularly when faced with the fact that the opposite has been the case on this thread?

It wasn't inappropriate to find out why the attacks happened. What was inappropriate was blaming the attacks on a false issue. 9/11 was blamed on "radical Muslims who hate freedom", not the failures of foreign policy. This tragedy is being blamed on guns, not the failures of people around this deranged psychopath to find help for him.

I completely agree with you on your points regarding 9/11 but I would say that even noting that 9/11 was, in part, a consequence of "the failures of foreign policy" would have been widely considered and understood and condemned as politicking. It is impossible to address why things happen (whether you are addressing them correctly or incorrectly) without being political, yet addressing why things happen is necessary if we ever hope to actually prevent these things from happening again. This is why I reject your (and many others') condemnation of "the political push this tragedy has led to" on premise.

But furthermore, yes, this tragedy should be blamed on guns, since we know that a society that has larger access to guns will lead to greater gun-related fatalities. To me, at this point, to continue to support the gun laws as they stand demands an overwhelming amount of self-delusion. Now, of course, I expect those who are deluded to refuse to accept that they are deluded - just as those who believe the Moon landings were fake believe what they believe with utter certainty and will probably reinforce their argument with what they believe is evidence - but they are deluded nevertheless. Now are American gun laws solely responsible for the utterly inhuman acts that occurred a few days ago? No. However, to pretend as if they don't bear a significant amount of responsibility is to, in my opinion, only work to ensure that horrific incidents like these continue to be a mainstay in the country and that's an unfortunate reality that those who do operate on this pretense will either have to confront or ignore.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I think we should stop ignoring the "school" part of "school shootings", maybe it's the environment created by public schools that we should take a second look at, our desire to "socialize" children institutionally via Government controlled schools. Maybe the role that these places play in the lives of young people is what needs to be reexamined.

Except that this does not happen to such a degree in other countries with "Government controlled schools." So that can't be it. I will say, intriguingly, that it is in the United States where hatred of government institutions is fostered. I am not blaming that culture for school shootings but it makes more sense as an argument.

[Dunderhead]

The US has a higher rate of college enrolment than other nations, a lower rate of graduation, spends more money per-capita on education than most, if not at all other nations, and ranks near the bottom in terms of pupil-to-teacher ratio. Our educational system has become more about affecting political and social outcomes while deemphasizing actual education.

[hypehat]

I think we should stop ignoring the "school" part of "school shootings", maybe it's the environment created by public schools that we should take a second look at, our desire to "socialize" children institutionally via Government controlled schools. Maybe the role that these places play in the lives of young people is what needs to be reexamined.

.....

Public school education = certain psychopathic killer? Sure. I take it your lovely parents sent you to a sheltered private school.

[Dunderhead]

Contemporary public schooling in the United States, don't generalize. Given that all "School Shootings", generally have two things in common, it would be doing a disservice to society to pretend like such a major commonality is irrelevant. Public schools are a traumatic place psychologically for developing children, not always, but the role the American public school system is playing in the development of these spree killers can't be ignored, and perhaps our instance that all children be filtered through this system and no child be spared is playing a role here worth investigating.

[hypehat]

don't generalize.

Oh ok, I won't if you -

Contemporary public schooling in the United States

You are still saying the public school system is fostering mass murderers. You are a very understanding young man.

[Letsgoawayforawhile]

Let's Be Friends
Let's Be Friends
Let's Be Friends

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Contemporary public schooling in the United States, don't generalize. Given that all "School Shootings", generally have two things in common, it would be doing a disservice to society to pretend like such a major commonality is irrelevant.

It is irrelevant when you consider that other public school systems don't have such problems. Schooling in Finland is almost entirely government funded and it is one of the best in the world, with students finishing first in math and science test scores and only second to Australia in terms of school life expectancy. According to the Education Index, Finland is tied for first for education in the world. Since 1996, there have been two school (one of them a college) shootings in Finland, lumping Finland in with the sort of numbers recorded by most industrialized countries as opposed to the 55 school shootings in the United States during the same time frame. I  agree with you that there are problems with the US school system though given the overt success of other public systems the problem is not simply that it's a public system. And to say that school shootings come down to the fact that it is a public system is absurd, given the comparisons with other countries with government funded education.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Contemporary public schooling in the United States, don't generalize. Given that all "School Shootings", generally have two things in common, it would be doing a disservice to society to pretend like such a major commonality is irrelevant. Public schools are a traumatic place psychologically for developing children, not always, but the role the American public school system is playing in the development of these spree killers can't be ignored, and perhaps our instance that all children be filtered through this system and no child be spared is playing a role here worth investigating.

I just gotta do it ....... + 1

[donald]

I agree.  Perhaps I should say repeal and reword the second amendment to bring it into the 21st century where free roaming  psychotic or homicidal people have ready access to modern military weapons with 50 round clips.

[Dunderhead]

Contemporary public schooling in the United States, don't generalize. Given that all "School Shootings", generally have two things in common, it would be doing a disservice to society to pretend like such a major commonality is irrelevant.

It is irrelevant when you consider that other public school systems don't have such problems. Schooling in Finland is almost entirely government funded and it is one of the best in the world, with students finishing first in math and science test scores and only second to Australia in terms of school life expectancy. According to the Education Index, Finland is tied for first for education in the world. Since 1996, there have been two school (one of them a college) shootings in Finland, lumping Finland in with the sort of numbers recorded by most industrialized countries as opposed to the 55 school shootings in the United States during the same time frame. I  agree with you that there are problems with the US school system though given the overt success of other public systems the problem is not simply that it's a public system. And to say that school shootings come down to the fact that it is a public system is absurd, given the comparisons with other countries with government funded education.

This argument doesn't stand up I think, after all Finland has a population of under six million and the US over three hundred million. On a percapita basis then Finland would actually have a higher incidence of school shootings than the United States. But as I already suggested earlier the attitudes of the United States towards education aren't uniform with the attitudes assumed by the politicians and public of other nations. You're attempting to refute a position I simply haven't taken, that school shootings are a phenomena inherent to all public education, when really my issue is with the political dimension of education in the United States, and how the inflexibility of that system, it's justification on the grounds of "socialization", and the pipedream that all children can and must receive a idealized liberal education contribute to the general resentment and dissatisfaction that manifests in young people singling out schools for acts of violence.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Keep in mind that my response to the first part is in keeping with my misunderstanding of your overall premise though I figure I'd keep the answer just for the heck of it.

This argument doesn't stand up I think, after all Finland has a population of under six million and the US over three hundred million. On a percapita basis then Finland would actually have a higher incidence of school shootings than the United States.

Regardless of population size, the number of school shootings seem to be similar across the board, usually between one and five. Take, for example, India, who have a little less than 4 times more the population size of the US and have about 80% of the schools publicly funded, but still manage to fall into this category, having only 1 school shooting since the mid-90s as opposed to the 55 in the US. It seems, then, that despite differences in population size, the United States is in a unique category.
 

You're attempting to refute a position I simply haven't taken, that school shootings are a phenomena inherent to all public education, when really my issue is with the political dimension of education in the United States, and how the inflexibility of that system, it's justification on the grounds of "socialization", and the pipedream that all children can and must receive a idealized liberal education contribute to the general resentment and dissatisfaction that manifests in young people singling out schools for acts of violence.

My apologies for my confusion - glad it was cleared up. I think I would probably agree with you about the nature of the school system and could probably add more issues to your list!  

[hypehat]

Contemporary public schooling in the United States, don't generalize. Given that all "School Shootings", generally have two things in common, it would be doing a disservice to society to pretend like such a major commonality is irrelevant.

It is irrelevant when you consider that other public school systems don't have such problems. Schooling in Finland is almost entirely government funded and it is one of the best in the world, with students finishing first in math and science test scores and only second to Australia in terms of school life expectancy. According to the Education Index, Finland is tied for first for education in the world. Since 1996, there have been two school (one of them a college) shootings in Finland, lumping Finland in with the sort of numbers recorded by most industrialized countries as opposed to the 55 school shootings in the United States during the same time frame. I  agree with you that there are problems with the US school system though given the overt success of other public systems the problem is not simply that it's a public system. And to say that school shootings come down to the fact that it is a public system is absurd, given the comparisons with other countries with government funded education.

This argument doesn't stand up I think, after all Finland has a population of under six million and the US over three hundred million. On a percapita basis then Finland would actually have a higher incidence of school shootings than the United States. But as I already suggested earlier the attitudes of the United States towards education aren't uniform with the attitudes assumed by the politicians and public of other nations. You're attempting to refute a position I simply haven't taken, that school shootings are a phenomena inherent to all public education, when really my issue is with the political dimension of education in the United States, and how the inflexibility of that system, it's justification on the grounds of "socialization", and the pipedream that all children can and must receive a idealized liberal education contribute to the general resentment and dissatisfaction that manifests in young people singling out schools for acts of violence.

I still think that's spurious. I also think out of all you could find in this - the freedom to form your well-organised militia, the nature of mental health care for young people, I think you're backing the wrong horse.

A perfect school system is not going to take away people's guns or cure these kids illnesses, you know?

[Dunderhead]

Why would you want to take away people's guns?

[hypehat]

So mentally ill people don't get their hands on assault rifles and kill 20 kids? Or is that the price of liberty to go shoot a sheet of paper down the range? Or go hunting?

Sub that for 'incredibly strict gun laws', then, Since I will never get my head around the fact the pro 2nd amendment crowd is the norm in the states. Guns are terrifying to everyone else, you know!

[Dunderhead]

My dad collects guns, and my family, my sister, mother and myself would go out on nice days in the spring and summer to shoot and compete with one another in some friendly target practice. There's nothing terrifying about guns, and you shouldn't trivialize a hobby and a sport that means so much to so many rural families and has been such an important touchstone in the relationship between fathers with their sons. Being pro-gun rights does not make you backwards or stupid or mean that you just don't understand how terrible and scary and dangerous guns are, the pro-2nd amendment crowd you're talking about respects guns and actually has a better understanding of the danger and responsibility that comes with them than you'd try and have us believe.

[hypehat]

I have no doubt - guns are just viewed far differently over here. I don't think even the kids I knew who grew up on farms and similar had guns around the house. (I don't know anyone posh enough to go proper country hunting, mind  ). But hunters use shot, not live ammunition in UK hunts, as far as I get it. And I've lived in East London (where the tabloid press love to decry it as a crimeladen hovel) for going on five years and never seen a gun wielded by the 'yoofs' or whatever. Plenty by the cops! I'm digressing, though.

No-one needs an assault rifle to go hunting, anyway. Arguably, no-one needs a handgun to do the same. Wouldn't you at least agree on stronger checks, restrictions and regulations to avoid people strapping on body armour, two rifles, teargas cannisters and a shotgun and going into a cinema? I mean, what your family do (which is fine, just completely foreign to a Brit city boy) and what's entirely possible for a driven individual to do are entirely different! Legislation should reflect that so, you know, people don't die needlessly. Or kids start bringing guns to school - http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_GUN_AT_SCHOOL?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-12-18-19-51-15

Wonder what The Big O is going to propose, in all seriousness. Just reinstating that 1994 Assault Weapons ban seems the safe money.

[hypehat]

God, f*** these people.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/18/nra-to-push-back-soon-sources-say/

""If we're going to have a conversation, then let's have a comprehensive conversation," said one industry source.  "If we're going to talk about the Second Amendment, then let's also talk about the First Amendment, and Hollywood, and the video games that teach young kids how to shoot heads."

OK, let's talk about that.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/17/ten-country-comparison-suggests-theres-little-or-no-link-between-video-games-and-gun-murders/

"Looking at the world’s 10 largest video game markets yields no evident, statistical correlation between video game consumption and gun-related killings."

[SMiLE Brian]

My two cents: The US needs limited gun control along with greater mental health treatment. 30 round clips for pistols and 100 round clips for m16s shouldn't be legal, the military doesn't even use those. The real problems is mental illness, and the US should screen better for these problems.

[donald]

Banning the sale of guns won't make them go away.  First of all, there are probably already as many guns in the US as people.  Second, gun parts are readily available to assemble an automatic weapon.  These were available seperately  from various legal sources to be assembled by the purchaser DURING the assault weapons ban period.  Many, many guns are unregistered so even if people were forced to turn in all of their guns, there would be no way to tell how many guns were still out there and who would have them.  We could begin change by banning automatic weapons and large clips.  We could also create stiffer penalties for those who don't secure their guns to prevent theft.   We could insist on rigid background checks tio ensure that those who are mentally unstable can never purchase a weapon.  Remember, felons are not allowed to have guns.  Why should the mentally ill be permitted to have guns?  And finally, we have to have legislation that will allow doctors and courts to enforce treatment or residential placement of the chronically mentally ill. Some of you might remember a few years back when state mental hospitals were scaled back and laws were changed to protect the mentally ill from being detained unless they were an immediate threat to self or others.  Nice idea.  But, these folks often stop taking medication and refuse further treatment after discharge and the system makes it very difficult for families to get help even when they know their family member has once again become a danger.  The solution, if one is to be found, will be very complex and will be years inthe making.
 

[Bean Bag]

The US has a higher rate of college enrolment than other nations, a lower rate of graduation, spends more money per-capita on education than most, if not at all other nations, and ranks near the bottom in terms of pupil-to-teacher ratio. Our educational system has become more about affecting political and social outcomes while deemphasizing actual education.

Our education system is a scam.  You nailed it.  Total garbage.  I want nothing more than to bring down and expose this festering Goliath.

I was appalled to learn my kids are being tested about solar energy and energy conservation.  Turn off the heat and lights, blah, blah.  In third grade?  Excuse me school system, tell me why are you're so damn worried about my electric bill.  Do you jive turkeys want to pay the electric bill in my house?  Cuz you can.  How about you teach them how to get a job so they can be lucky enough to have an electric bill.  Maybe teach them how to build an electric company -- or sh**t, teach them how to read the damn electric bill.  Maybe they wouldn't have so much f***ing homework, if you taught during the day rather than mind raped.

The Left is so blatant and emboldened right now.  It's time to bring the hammer down, people.  Bring the hammer DOWN!!!  

[Bean Bag]

God, f*** these people.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/18/nra-to-push-back-soon-sources-say/

""If we're going to have a conversation, then let's have a comprehensive conversation," said one industry source.  "If we're going to talk about the Second Amendment, then let's also talk about the First Amendment, and Hollywood, and the video games that teach young kids how to shoot heads."

OK, let's talk about that.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/17/ten-country-comparison-suggests-theres-little-or-no-link-between-video-games-and-gun-murders/

"Looking at the world’s 10 largest video game markets yields no evident, statistical correlation between video game consumption and gun-related killings."

Your petition to God should perhaps be directed a little further south.   

So... ok, ok.  If there's absolutely no link between video games violence and murders ( , sorry this is funny to me) ...aren't you making their point?  Think about it.  If there is no influence in what one sees and hears and does... even fantasies about, virtually acts out, ...than how can you make your case, so passionately against your one narrow little targeted object?

Now... I don't want to call anyone a hypocrite... well, I do ... but I won't, because, that's not what's going on here.  But I will suggest a limited logical scope of one's argument, and the inability for one to resist in sharing said argument to achieve, perhaps some personal goal. Care to share it?

[hypehat]

I took NRA sources statement to mean that, if you want to have a discussion on preventing gun violence in America, you should be looking at a whole raft of other things first, including the ludicrous argument that video games influence these things (which gets trotted out EVERY TIME). They are not blaming relaxed gun laws, a lapsed assault rifle ban (lapsed under intense pressure from the NRA, natch) or any thing to do with the gun industry or their toxic organisation (last seen driving up sales by going 'Obama's GOING TO TAKE YOUR GUNS AND FREEDOM'). They're blaming Hollywood movies and a 'culture of violence'.


They have no evidence, as the graph shows. They are simply deflecting the issue, which as they have a wide range of influence, is grim. Would hardly expect such a deranged gang of sh*ts to be anything but panicked in light of this event, mind.  


That's my point. Hit your bong and get back to me as to why I'm a hypocrite. Please.

[rab2591]

So mentally ill people don't get their hands on assault rifles and kill 20 kids? Or is that the price of liberty to go shoot a sheet of paper down the range? Or go hunting?

Sub that for 'incredibly strict gun laws', then, Since I will never get my head around the fact the pro 2nd amendment crowd is the norm in the states. Guns are terrifying to everyone else, you know!

sh*t happens. Hundreds of thousands die of drunk driving around the world every year - yet NO ONE is crying out wanting to ban/regulate alcohol or the use of cars.

Even if you take away guns, humans will always find a way to kill...You can EASILY kill/harm loads of people with a combination of cleaning supplies and a lighter (all available at your local grocery store) - are we supposed to ban that stuff too?

I sleep well at night knowing that if a burglar enters my home I have a means of self defense other than calling 9-1-1 and waiting 10 minutes for them to arrive (and burglaries are actually quite common here).

I am ALL for stricter regulation of gun laws: regulated clip size, deeper background checks, etc. But I'm also for my right to self defense in a nation where even if you destroyed 99% of the guns you'd still have tens of thousands of guns floating around somewhere.

[hypehat]

So mentally ill people don't get their hands on assault rifles and kill 20 kids? Or is that the price of liberty to go shoot a sheet of paper down the range? Or go hunting?

Sub that for 'incredibly strict gun laws', then, Since I will never get my head around the fact the pro 2nd amendment crowd is the norm in the states. Guns are terrifying to everyone else, you know!

sh*t happens. Hundreds of thousands die of drunk driving around the world every year - yet NO ONE is crying out wanting to ban/regulate alcohol or the use of cars.

Even if you take away guns, humans will always find a way to kill

You know I love u dude but c'mon.

I don't think 'people are going to kill anyway' is a suitable brush off. That shouldn't mean it should be easy for them to gun down a school in a bulletproof vest.... a gun is also a lot different than homebrew biological warfare!

I think we're just cultural differences - I mean when I got burgled my presence alone scared the guy off! I must look like hell when I first wake up....