Brian without the Beach Boys: Would he still be regarded as a modern-day Mozart?

[Don Malcolm]

Both Luther and Jim are right (say what?). It's important to understand "what happened", and it's extremely enjoyable to explore alternate realities, particularly when they provide opportunities to put the facts into better context.

But of course these activities are mutually exclusive, and people will wind up positioned somewhere on the spectrum in terms of the relative merits of either approach.

Regarding the issue raised by the OP, its a darned good thing that Brian had the Beach Boys to jump-start and focus his creativity...not only would he not be regarded as a modern-day Mozart (by those who need to make such comparisons), but we'd be missing the very reason that we are here together.

I think the answer to the original question is plain as the nose on your face: without the specific formative details of Brian's life--both good and bad, nurturing and abusive--he'd've had a much different life. And so would we, because he almost certainly wouldn't have been the Brian Wilson we know and revere.

Those who like to make these Mozart comparisons, however, really need to get better grounded in "what happened" to Mozart...who was one of the world's greatest child prodigies, writing long-form works before the rest of us started grade school and packing an incredibly prolific composing career into only 35 years. While it's an undeniably alluring analogy, it's also a very tenuous one.

[rab2591]

Man, now you guys have Guess I'm Dumb stuck in my head. I really love the version with the BB's doing backing vocals. I think Glen's voice is beautiful in that song though.

I was rather harsh on his vocals in my previous post - no, he has a good voice, it's just not my taste.

[EgoHanger1966]

Man, now you guys have Guess I'm Dumb stuck in my head. I really love the version with the BB's doing backing vocals. I think Glen's voice is beautiful in that song though.

There is no version with the BBs doing backing vocals - it was Brian and The Honeys, IIRC.

[Cam Mott]

I vote we would have almost certainly never heard of Brian.

[Letsgoawayforawhile]

Man, now you guys have Guess I'm Dumb stuck in my head. I really love the version with the BB's doing backing vocals. I think Glen's voice is beautiful in that song though.

There is no version with the BBs doing backing vocals - it was Brian and The Honeys, IIRC.

My fault! Yes, that one!

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Well, Brian did use a LOT of jazz chord structure in his writing (both vocally, and instrumentally), and he did have a feel for gospel the one time he did it.

Def. no blues, though.

Yeah, he basically introduced jazz chords to top40 rock and roll. And his backing tracks were like miniature symphonies.

I think it's a fair comparison.

Again, do people who hold Mozart in as high esteem as we hold Brian agree with this assessment?

[Quzi]

Man, now you guys have Guess I'm Dumb stuck in my head. I really love the version with the BB's doing backing vocals. I think Glen's voice is beautiful in that song though.

There is no version with the BBs doing backing vocals - it was Brian and The Honeys, IIRC.

Who's doing the low vocal in the tag?

[guitarfool2002]

I vote we would have almost certainly never heard of Brian.

It's not fair to single out Brian, though! We could apply this to every notable musician from Sinatra to Elvis to Lennon and McCartney, and let's say if Elvis had landed a good paying job on an oil rig somewhere in Texas he never would have gone to Sam Phillips to cut a record for his mother and there would be no Elvis.

It can literally be taken to infinity and beyond to speculate in this way, let's just say had everything not lined up exactly as it did things would be different. I thought the original question was an interesting one, obviously Brian was talented but if not for the Beach Boys, in 1966 he may have been a working guy driving a family station wagon loaded with kids on their way to a checkup from "Uncle Al" the dentist, stopping into the local gas station for a fill-up where he'd say hi to Mike Love tending the pumps and get the "family discount" on his next oil change, who knows.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I don't think about this subject much unless it's brought up on the board. Using process of elimination...

I don't think Brian would've joined a band. He didn't like performing and he didn't like travelling. If he couldn't enjoy himself as a Beach Boy (with his brothers), I'm not sure under what circumstances he would've enjoyed being in a group.

While Brian was a good musician, I'm not sure he had the chops to be a session player. Or, I don't think he would've wanted to be a session player. Do you think he had enough patience for that kind of job?

So, that leaves songwriting. While Brian could write quality songs at a very young age, he would've needed connections and ambition to shop his songs. I don't think he traveled in a circle that could've provided him connections. Would he be driven on his own to sell his songs. Would he have the confidence? Did he value money?

Brian was unlucky in many things during his youth, but, he was lucky that Murry was driven and Brian was lucky that he had the necessary support to be a Beach Boy. I think there's a very good chance that Brian could've drifted to a very unhealthy lifestyle (I know, I know. How much unhealthier could it be than in the Beach Boys). Sometimes I envision a Syd Barrett situation with the living in the parents' basement thing...

[Micha]

I think Brian's productions for The Honeys in 1963 and 1964 are better than those he did for The Beach Boys in that same era. They might not be as great RECORDS, all told, or compositions, but he was clearly progressing in terms of arranging and combining instruments, in a way he may have been shy to exhibit in the more basic BB framework of the time. He's A Doll and The One You Can't Have are actually two of my favorite records of all time.

"Pray For Surf" has a hard rocking punch Brian doesn't seem to have gone for when recording the Beach Boys.

[lance]

I think Brian's productions for The Honeys in 1963 and 1964 are better than those he did for The Beach Boys in that same era. They might not be as great RECORDS, all told, or compositions, but he was clearly progressing in terms of arranging and combining instruments, in a way he may have been shy to exhibit in the more basic BB framework of the time. He's A Doll and The One You Can't Have are actually two of my favorite records of all time.

I agree and I think there are plenty of other good songs at that time: Story of My Life, Thinking About My Baby, Pray for Surf, Surfin' Down the Swanee River...

[phirnis]

Modern-day Mozart'd be nothing without Bruce Johnston conducting.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I don't think about this subject much unless it's brought up on the board. Using process of elimination...

I don't think Brian would've joined a band. He didn't like performing and he didn't like travelling. If he couldn't enjoy himself as a Beach Boy (with his brothers), I'm not sure under what circumstances he would've enjoyed being in a group.

While Brian was a good musician, I'm not sure he had the chops to be a session player. Or, I don't think he would've wanted to be a session player. Do you think he had enough patience for that kind of job?

So, that leaves songwriting. While Brian could write quality songs at a very young age, he would've needed connections and ambition to shop his songs. I don't think he traveled in a circle that could've provided him connections. Would he be driven on his own to sell his songs. Would he have the confidence? Did he value money?

Brian was unlucky in many things during his youth, but, he was lucky that Murry was driven and Brian was lucky that he had the necessary support to be a Beach Boy. I think there's a very good chance that Brian could've drifted to a very unhealthy lifestyle (I know, I know. How much unhealthier could it be than in the Beach Boys). Sometimes I envision a Syd Barrett situation with the living in the parents' basement thing...

I think you touched on something interesting with that last paragraph. for all we know Brian coulda been a lot worse off...

[Letsgoawayforawhile]

Man, now you guys have Guess I'm Dumb stuck in my head. I really love the version with the BB's doing backing vocals. I think Glen's voice is beautiful in that song though.

There is no version with the BBs doing backing vocals - it was Brian and The Honeys, IIRC.

Who's doing the low vocal in the tag?

I definitely thought it was Mike, but Brian could get pretty low when he wanted. It wouldn't be the first time I got them two mixed up.

[Jon Stebbins]

From the Beach Boys FAQ book...
http://www.amazon.com/The-Beach-Boys-FAQ-Americas/dp/0879309873/ref=sr_tc_2_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354586981&sr=1-2-ent


Dennis Wilson once famously stated that “Brian Wilson is the Beach Boys” and the rest of the group his messengers. “He’s everything, we’re nothing.” As with most Dennis Wilson quotes, this one contains some truth, some exaggeration, some bite, and some humility. No doubt that Brian was the Beach Boys sun and the others were the unique planets in his solar system. The quote may have been Dennis’ stealthy way of needling credit-grabbing Mike Love. But Dennis was also truthfully admitting that none of the others, including himself, could ever match Brian’s creative gift, and that they were all lucky to have had Brian lead them to fame and fortune.

As Brian evolved as an arranger and producer, the studio became his laboratory, and the Beach Boys recording sessions became his concentrated experiments. Each one broke new ground and gave Brian the momentum and the confidence to take things a step further. His creative growth, and by extension the group’s, was astonishing. Compare the basic raw garage sound of “409” recorded in mid 1962 to the arrangement wizardry of “I Get Around” recorded in mid 1964. That kind of growth in just two years is nothing short of stunning. And Brian was only getting warmed up. Within another two years he’d make the once futuristic sounding “I Get Around” seem absolutely archaic with the ultra-rich productions within Pet Sounds and the envelope pushing single “Good Vibrations”. Brian may have burnt out at a relatively early age, but what he accomplished by age 25 will forever stand as one of, if not the greatest, streaks of brilliance by any artist of his time.

So yes, Brian Wilson is the Beach Boys, in the sense that it was his creativity and genius vision that led the group to glory. But genius does not exist in a vacuum. True genius usually has an awesome support system. Brian’s support system, though at times dysfunctional, and at times a barrier, was in its own way as brilliant as he was. From Murry’s fearless drive, to Dennis’ instinct and charisma, to Carl’s steadiness and one-of-a kind voice, to Mike’s innate ability to connect with his lyrics, Brian had an incredible gang.

And did I mention those voices? Well, I did mention Carl, who had one of the greatest vocal gifts in pop history. Mike’s voice was distinct and made the Beach Boys immediately identifiable. Al’s voice was rich, versatile, and most importantly could mimic Brian’s. Dennis’ vocals had that sandpaper texture that made everything seem more sensual and honest. Bruce’s precise, clear and sugary sound was the perfect opposite of Dennis. And Brian’s…his falsetto could raise goose bumps and bring tears. It could also make everything seem a little happier and a little sunnier. Put them all together with Brian’s savant-like ability to create interweaving and interlocking parts, and what you had was the prettiest, most sophisticated, euphoria inducing sound to ever emit from the lips of human beings.

The Beach Boys vocal sound at its best is nothing short of pure pop bliss. If aliens ever land on earth and we need to impress them quickly, just shoot a little “Our Prayer” their way and they’ll immediately understand everything worthwhile about the human race. Brian found the good or the God within us all, the indescribable spiritual chord that connects us. But he wasn’t alone in his discovery. He created the genius body of work along with his brothers, his cousin and his friends. Brian Wilson is The Beach Boys, but Brian Wilson isn’t Brian Wilson without them.

[Mike's Beard]

I visit this damn board everyday and yet at times I forget just how great The Beach Boys were. The other week when I watched the "Doin' It Again" documentary, the vintage footage of them all singing "Their Hearts Were Full Of Spring" just knocked me out. They were what, between the ages of 15 - 20 when they done that. No group today could pull that off at such a young age. The Beach Boys were amazing.

[SMiLE Brian]

I visit this damn board everyday and yet at times I forget just how great The Beach Boys were. The other week when I watched the "Doin' It Again" documentary, the vintage footage of them all singing "Their Hearts Were Full Of Spring" just knocked me out. They were what, between the ages of 15 - 20 when they done that. No group today could pull that off at such a young age. The Beach Boys were amazing.

Its amazing they did their complex harmonies live perfectly with screaming girls and no monitors.

[Letsgoawayforawhile]

I visit this damn board everyday and yet at times I forget just how great The Beach Boys were. The other week when I watched the "Doin' It Again" documentary, the vintage footage of them all singing "Their Hearts Were Full Of Spring" just knocked me out. They were what, between the ages of 15 - 20 when they done that. No group today could pull that off at such a young age. The Beach Boys were amazing.

Its amazing they did their complex harmonies live perfectly with screaming girls and no monitors.

While being directed by a guy with one ear. They're truly amazing.

[rogerlancelot]

No comparison to Mozart at all. Mozart was a genius on every level (and was nothing like the fictional movie Amadeus portrayed him). Brian is a very talented songwriter who hit a very long dry spell caused by a combination of insecurity / mental illness / laziness / hard drugs & drink.

I have that 180 cd set of complete Mozart works and even K 1-5 (written as a child) are way more sophisticated then "Surfin'" as an example. I won't go any further as this is an unfair comparison.

Brian Wilson is a modern day Brian Wilson. The chances of seeing another Mozart in our life times would be akin to seeing another rock band become as successful or influential as the Beatles (not just musically but culturally, etc.). Brian belongs in his own category but I don't think he is a genius. The closest that a rock musician/composer has come to being a "genius" was Frank Zappa but even he was miles behind Mozart.

[harrisonjon]

I don't know if complexity should be the only measure. There are later composers who wrote more complex harmonies than Mozart but did not have Mozart's beauty. Zappa did not make anything as beautiful as Pet Sounds. I'm sure Leonard Bernstein was miles ahead of Brian as a technical composer but I would choose Brian's work over his for emotional power, just as I'd have John Lennon over Hoagy Carmichael.

Mozart is greater than Brian because he created beauty over a wider range: from opera to piano sonatas. 180 CDs of beauty, as you say.

[I. Spaceman]

Zappa did not make anything as beautiful as Pet Sounds. 

I disagree.

[Catbirdman]

How about Chopin - known for complexity and virtuosity, but even more for his feeling. It has always bugged me to hear Brian compared to classical composers like Mozart because yes, it's an unfair comparison. Brian was a genius at elevating pop art to un-selfconscious moments of sublimity. And he can hear and compose vocal harmonies extremely well. But on the level of Mozart, or Chopin, or in the same arena? Nah.

I seem to recall a quote from Brian relating how he went to a live performance of something or other - some massive orchestral thing, like a Mass or a Requiem - and afterwards he said "I feel like a musical midget." It may actually have been a quote from Carl relating to something Brian said... Am I growing delirious or can anyone else remember this?

[schiaffino]

From the Beach Boys FAQ book...
http://www.amazon.com/The-Beach-Boys-FAQ-Americas/dp/0879309873/ref=sr_tc_2_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354586981&sr=1-2-ent


....The Beach Boys vocal sound at its best is nothing short of pure pop bliss. If aliens ever land on earth and we need to impress them quickly, just shoot a little “Our Prayer” their way and they’ll immediately understand everything worthwhile about the human race. Brian found the good or the God within us all, the indescribable spiritual chord that connects us...

I couldn't agree more, Mr. Stebbins, your comment almost made me cry.

[schiaffino]

Hey guys, the whole Mozart comparison is not mine. I've read that quote many times, in many different places. Sounds catchy from a 'marketing' point-of-view, but it can surely be questioned.

Still, music abilities aside, there's a lot of commonalities between both artists. Complicated family background, innate musical abilities (within proportions), tough father figure driven by business, early work involving family members (Mozart's sister), success coming at a very early age, controversy of work at a more mature age, falling from grace in the music industry/market/audiences and actual late rehabilitation of the complete work of the musician. The only difference is that we still have Brian to celebrate his genius; poor Mozart died in an unjustifiable obscurity.

Makes sense?

[rab2591]

Brian created complex chord progressions that are just as beautiful as anything Mozart did (obviously just my opinion, but I think Philip Lambert also shares a view similar to this - I could be mistaken). Also, Brian was working in the confines of the current music phase (where 3 1/2 minutes was the time allotted for a record) - and he pushed those boundaries to their very limits. He crammed symphonies into the tiny space of a 45.

Brian was a genius of his craft. Because he did not write 180 CDs worth of Operas or Symphonies doesn't make him less brilliant than Mozart.

People compare him to Mozart because they both created some of the most beautiful music in the history of mankind. nuff said.