Brian without the Beach Boys: Would he still be regarded as a modern-day Mozart?

[schiaffino]

Hello fellow Beach Boys' obsessed bunch of freaks 

I was about to reply something to a thread I started on things I don't understand from the band, but then a thought came to mind: if Brian had not produced the Beach Boys, would he have attained the same level of recognition he enjoys today?

The BBs had the vocal blend essential to their style and (early) success. But there were also great vocal bands out there in the 60s (Mammas & Pappas for ex) that Brian could have produced as well. Could that have worked?

Although loving everyone in the band, I got to confess I'm leaning towards being a Brianista. Without Brian the BBs would have never achieved what they did in the 60s. But I'm a moderate Brianista and I do acknowledge the successful brew the band had back in the day and the contribution of each band member (Carl in particular).

What do you guys think? Would this be a good topic to start discussing? Not sure if this is already addresses in another thread elsewhere, my apologies if so.

[guitarfool2002]

The best proof may be in the outside productions Brian did in the 60's. I may be offending some folks, but not a single one of those comes even close to the power of Brian's work with the Beach Boys, even if you narrow it down to the singles he recorded from 1963 to 1965. For his creative vision and the way he wanted to produce music, he had the perfect group to realize those visions. He may have done some great things on his own, but nothing will match the power of that group and how it worked so well for the songs they were performing.

[EgoHanger1966]

The best proof may be in the outside productions Brian did in the 60's. I may be offending some folks, but not a single one of those comes even close to the power of Brian's work with the Beach Boys, even if you narrow it down to the singles he recorded from 1963 to 1965. For his creative vision and the way he wanted to produce music, he had the perfect group to realize those visions. He may have done some great things on his own, but nothing will match the power of that group and how it worked so well for the songs they were performing.

Well, I'd say Guess I'm Dumb rivals pretty much any track the Beach Boys recorded pre-1965, but that's just an opinion...

The Beach Boys success gave Brian a vehicle to experiment, and to experiment on a highly visible level. Brian could have made Pet Sounds by himself, but far fewer people would have heard it, and I doubt it would be considered one of the great albums of all time today.

[halblaineisgood]

.

[guitarfool2002]

The best proof may be in the outside productions Brian did in the 60's. I may be offending some folks, but not a single one of those comes even close to the power of Brian's work with the Beach Boys, even if you narrow it down to the singles he recorded from 1963 to 1965. For his creative vision and the way he wanted to produce music, he had the perfect group to realize those visions. He may have done some great things on his own, but nothing will match the power of that group and how it worked so well for the songs they were performing.

Well, I'd say Guess I'm Dumb rivals pretty much any track the Beach Boys recorded pre-1965, but that's just an opinion...

Where's the hook on Guess I'm Dumb?  It sounds to me like Phil Spector coasting down a hill with his car in neutral, it's moving and all the sonics are there but I don't hear as many peaks and valleys which would give it interest.

It's definitely opinion, but there is nothing jumping out of the speakers like I Get Around, no hooks like Dance Dance Dance or Surfin Safari, or nothing like Don't Worry Baby or Surfer Girl to draw in a wide range of listeners. Putting all of these songs into context, it becomes easier to hear why certain records never made it as big while others still inspire stadiums full of people. Brian at his best combined all the elements and made hit records. Guess I'm Dumb is missing some of the elements. In my opinion. 

[pixletwin]

Brian should have graduated from UCLA in music composition.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I may be offending some folks, but not a single one of those comes even close to the power of Brian's work with the Beach Boys, even if you narrow it down to the singles he recorded from 1963 to 1965.

I'll go one further and say most of them weren't even any good.

Brian certainly had the ability, but if there hadn't been a Beach Boys band, I don't think he would've gotten a contract. His own tastes were too MOR to break in at that point. If he would have gotten a deal, at the very most he could have been another Richard Carpenter.

Everything clicked at the right time.

[EgoHanger1966]

The best proof may be in the outside productions Brian did in the 60's. I may be offending some folks, but not a single one of those comes even close to the power of Brian's work with the Beach Boys, even if you narrow it down to the singles he recorded from 1963 to 1965. For his creative vision and the way he wanted to produce music, he had the perfect group to realize those visions. He may have done some great things on his own, but nothing will match the power of that group and how it worked so well for the songs they were performing.

Well, I'd say Guess I'm Dumb rivals pretty much any track the Beach Boys recorded pre-1965, but that's just an opinion...

Where's the hook on Guess I'm Dumb?  It sounds to me like Phil Spector coasting down a hill with his car in neutral, it's moving and all the sonics are there but I don't hear as many peaks and valleys which would give it interest.

It's definitely opinion, but there is nothing jumping out of the speakers like I Get Around, no hooks like Dance Dance Dance or Surfin Safari, or nothing like Don't Worry Baby or Surfer Girl to draw in a wide range of listeners. Putting all of these songs into context, it becomes easier to hear why certain records never made it as big while others still inspire stadiums full of people. Brian at his best combined all the elements and made hit records. Guess I'm Dumb is missing some of the elements. In my opinion. 

I can understand where you're coming from - the song itself might not be chock full of pop hooks, but there's just something about it I really dig. I like the drums (z'at Hal?), I like Glen's vocal, I love the lyric, I like the way it glides along. It's not an exciting record, doesn't jump out of the speakers like some of the ones you've cited, but it's got a mysterious quality about it, I dunno...it just clicks with me. What's funny to me is that I've had more than one person tell me they like my version better than Glen's! 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Just out of curiosity, do Mozart fanatics refer to Mozart as the Brian Wilson of his day?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I can understand where you're coming from - the song itself might not be chock full of pop hooks, but there's just something about it I really dig. I like the drums (z'at Hal?), I like Glen's vocal, I love the lyric, I like the way it glides along. It's not an exciting record, doesn't jump out of the speakers like some of the ones you've cited, but it's got a mysterious quality about it, I dunno...it just clicks with me. What's funny to me is that I've had more than one person tell me they like my version better than Glen's!

I LOVE the song, but if the BB did not exist, I seriously doubt Brian ever would have gotten the chance to record it. Heck, he might not have ever written it!

[rab2591]

Brian helped write 'Surf City' - in fact, most of the chord changes and riffs are trademark Brian. And it became a #1 hit.

He didn't need The Beach Boys to write great music. However, I doubt he would be as famous as he is without The Beach Boys.

[rab2591]

The best proof may be in the outside productions Brian did in the 60's. I may be offending some folks, but not a single one of those comes even close to the power of Brian's work with the Beach Boys, even if you narrow it down to the singles he recorded from 1963 to 1965. For his creative vision and the way he wanted to produce music, he had the perfect group to realize those visions. He may have done some great things on his own, but nothing will match the power of that group and how it worked so well for the songs they were performing.

Well, I'd say Guess I'm Dumb rivals pretty much any track the Beach Boys recorded pre-1965, but that's just an opinion...

Where's the hook on Guess I'm Dumb?  It sounds to me like Phil Spector coasting down a hill with his car in neutral, it's moving and all the sonics are there but I don't hear as many peaks and valleys which would give it interest.

It's definitely opinion, but there is nothing jumping out of the speakers like I Get Around, no hooks like Dance Dance Dance or Surfin Safari, or nothing like Don't Worry Baby or Surfer Girl to draw in a wide range of listeners. Putting all of these songs into context, it becomes easier to hear why certain records never made it as big while others still inspire stadiums full of people. Brian at his best combined all the elements and made hit records. Guess I'm Dumb is missing some of the elements. In my opinion. 

I can understand where you're coming from - the song itself might not be chock full of pop hooks, but there's just something about it I really dig. I like the drums (z'at Hal?), I like Glen's vocal, I love the lyric, I like the way it glides along. It's not an exciting record, doesn't jump out of the speakers like some of the ones you've cited, but it's got a mysterious quality about it, I dunno...it just clicks with me. What's funny to me is that I've had more than one person tell me they like my version better than Glen's! 

Glens voice bothers the sh*t out of me on that song. Your cover really shows the potential this song had as huge hit. Put Beach Boys vocals over Brian's backing track and you have a solid Pet Sounds song.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Brian helped write 'Surf City' - in fact, most of the chord changes and riffs are trademark Brian. And it became a #1 hit.

He didn't need The Beach Boys to write great music. However, I doubt he would be as famous as he is without The Beach Boys.

Oh yeah, no doubt. But...he wrote that song after he started the group and they became successful. He was already famous by that point. IF he had been a complete unknown, would Jan & Dean have taken the song?  Hell, would surfing even be as big of a 'thing' in 1963 if the Beach Boys hadn't made good? It was all a chain reaction.

[rab2591]

Brian helped write 'Surf City' - in fact, most of the chord changes and riffs are trademark Brian. And it became a #1 hit.

He didn't need The Beach Boys to write great music. However, I doubt he would be as famous as he is without The Beach Boys.

Oh yeah, no doubt. But...he wrote that song after he started the group and they became successful. He was already famous by that point. IF he had been a complete unknown, would Jan & Dean have taken the song?  Hell, would surfing even be as big of a 'thing' in 1963 if the Beach Boys hadn't made good? It was all a chain reaction.

Yeah, you're right. Thinking about an alternate chain of events in Brian's life is mind-boggling

I've always wondered where he would've ended up had The Beach Boys never been formed....

[I. Spaceman]

I think Brian's productions for The Honeys in 1963 and 1964 are better than those he did for The Beach Boys in that same era. They might not be as great RECORDS, all told, or compositions, but he was clearly progressing in terms of arranging and combining instruments, in a way he may have been shy to exhibit in the more basic BB framework of the time. He's A Doll and The One You Can't Have are actually two of my favorite records of all time.

[harrisonjon]

Mozart is a bad comparison: the Salzburg genius could compose opera, chamber music, symphonies and every other style of his day. As much as I love Brian, he didn't even have the pop equivalent of that range: no real blues, gospel or jazz, for example.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Well, Brian did use a LOT of jazz chord structure in his writing (both vocally, and instrumentally), and he did have a feel for gospel the one time he did it.

Def. no blues, though.

[Mitchell]

What Ian said. I'm more shocked that they weren't huge hits. He's a Doll in particular. And Pamela Jean's track is much more propulsive than Car Crazy Cutie.

That said, he certainly needed the Beach Boys to be successful and ultimately stretch to "Mozart" proportions or whatever.

[rab2591]

Well, Brian did use a LOT of jazz chord structure in his writing (both vocally, and instrumentally), and he did have a feel for gospel the one time he did it.

Def. no blues, though.

Yeah, he basically introduced jazz chords to top40 rock and roll. And his backing tracks were like miniature symphonies.

I think it's a fair comparison.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

And his backing tracks were like miniature symphonies.

Pocket symphonies, even!

[18thofMay]

Brian needed a break like so many others desperately seek. The Beach Boys were it.

[Jim V.]

I don't get the point about speculating about stuff like this. Brian DID work with The Beach Boys, and that's what happened. So I'm not gonna think about what woulda happened otherwise. Or what woulda happened if he was able to make full albums in the '70s full of rockin' stuff like "Mess of Help" and "Marcella", or what woulda happened if he had something closer to his "classic" voice in the late '70s and on. What happened happened. And the only thing that matters to me is finding out more about the work he has done in the last 50 years, and also hearing the work that hasn't gotten released yet. But it's not use fantasizing about stuff that didn't happen. Sorry to be such a jerk about this but it just seems useless.

[the captain]

I don't get the point about speculating about stuff like this. Brian DID work with The Beach Boys, and that's what happened. So I'm not gonna think about what woulda happened otherwise. Or what woulda happened if he was able to make full albums in the '70s full of rockin' stuff like "Mess of Help" and "Marcella", or what woulda happened if he had something closer to his "classic" voice in the late '70s and on. What happened happened. And the only thing that matters to me is finding out more about the work he has done in the last 50 years, and also hearing the work that hasn't gotten released yet. But it's not use fantasizing about stuff that didn't happen. Sorry to be such a jerk about this but it just seems useless.

I understand your point, but if I may...
 
Different people are here for different reasons, and they find enjoyment. Some might be digging into the reality as deeply as possible, making this something of either a research site or a place to join other like-minded fans. Fine. Others may look at the oddities, the dead ends, and the what-ifs in history and find enjoyment in speculating about the obviously unanswerable, the obviously impossible. It is of great use to fantasize about such things if that is what someone thinks is enjoyable. You're welcome to be interested in digging into the reality, but recognize that what matters to you doesn't necessarily matter to everyone--or necessarily even anyone--else. We all have our motivations and we all have our pleasures. It's no big deal.

Regarding the original post, btw, my answer is no.

[rab2591]

I don't get the point about speculating about stuff like this. Brian DID work with The Beach Boys, and that's what happened. So I'm not gonna think about what woulda happened otherwise. Or what woulda happened if he was able to make full albums in the '70s full of rockin' stuff like "Mess of Help" and "Marcella", or what woulda happened if he had something closer to his "classic" voice in the late '70s and on. What happened happened. And the only thing that matters to me is finding out more about the work he has done in the last 50 years, and also hearing the work that hasn't gotten released yet. But it's not use fantasizing about stuff that didn't happen. Sorry to be such a jerk about this but it just seems useless.

I understand your point, but if I may...
 
Different people are here for different reasons, and they find enjoyment. Some might be digging into the reality as deeply as possible, making this something of either a research site or a place to join other like-minded fans. Fine. Others may look at the oddities, the dead ends, and the what-ifs in history and find enjoyment in speculating about the obviously unanswerable, the obviously impossible. It is of great use to fantasize about such things if that is what someone thinks is enjoyable. You're welcome to be interested in digging into the reality, but recognize that what matters to you doesn't necessarily matter to everyone--or necessarily even anyone--else. We all have our motivations and we all have our pleasures. It's no big deal.

Regarding the original post, btw, my answer is no.

I miss your posts Luther. Glad to see you still come around here from time to time!

[Letsgoawayforawhile]

Man, now you guys have Guess I'm Dumb stuck in my head. I really love the version with the BB's doing backing vocals. I think Glen's voice is beautiful in that song though.