ObamaCare - Free HealthCare 4 Ever! Hip-hip...hooray!?

[Bean Bag]

Meanwhile...outside the fortress of Candy Canes and Unicorns... reality hits America.

Here, in this thread-topic, our non-government reporters will aim to bring some reality to the topic of ObamaCare.  Without the hypotheticals of pipe-smoking professors and paid-for special interests.  Here is the real story -- as it happens -- of a once mighty nation preparing for its decline as it attempts to fight its way through Obama's Health Care provisions.  People's right to affordable, quality care -- diminishing...day by day, right before your eyes.  An all seeing government, growing more and more powerful every day -- intruding into the most personal aspects of your lives.  Business struggling through mounds of legal nonsense...forced to make drastic cuts or close it's doors.

This is ObamaCare.  The debate is over.  The time has come.  Now... only reality.


Post'em as you find'em boys (and binders of girls)...

[Bean Bag]

PA COLLEGE SLASHES INSTRUCTORS' HOURS TO AVOID OBAMACARE
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/11/21/Surprise-PA-College-Slashes-Hours-To-Avoid-Obamacare

[Jason]

Obama is hell bent on turning the United States into a third-world country. Marxist utopia, here we come!

[Jason]

http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/grusbf5/good-morning-america-heres-those-layoffs-you-voted
http://www.diversityinc.com/leadership/papa-johns-ceo-blames-obamacare-for-cutting-workers-hours/
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2012/nov/8/picket-companies-plan-massive-layoffs-obamacare-be/
http://www.examiner.com/article/obamacare-tax-increases-could-lead-to-massive-layoffs

[Chocolate Shake Man]

So is this the thread where we just make up a whole bunch of stuff?

OK my turn: I can't believe Obama is sending men to the sun in an effort to colonize it. What is he thinking?!?!

[Chocolate Shake Man]

http://www.freedomworks.org/blog/grusbf5/good-morning-america-heres-those-layoffs-you-voted
http://www.diversityinc.com/leadership/papa-johns-ceo-blames-obamacare-for-cutting-workers-hours/
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2012/nov/8/picket-companies-plan-massive-layoffs-obamacare-be/
http://www.examiner.com/article/obamacare-tax-increases-could-lead-to-massive-layoffs

Companies are tyrannical structures and will use any excuse available to reduce costs and boost profits. This is why while in the last four years, corporations have been recording record profits whilst simultaneously using the "economic crisis" as an excuse to cut jobs. Why should it be surprising that Obamacare - something that I don't agree with but is nevertheless proven to reduce the national deficit - should be now the excuse that corporations go to in this ongoing desire to boost profits.

[grillo]

I love it! Violence (aka the government aka ) is used to force individuals to pay money for something they would be much better off staying away from (big pharma and the medical industrial complex) all in the name of, what, freedom? Better health? Hilarious. I'm looking forward to the announcement that we've always been at war with eastasia. I think the right and the left can really come together on this topic...enslave everyone for your own desires. Good job all you folks who still prop up the legitimacy of the system by doing your religious, I'm sorry, moral duty every couple of years and voting. Boy, all these wonderful gifts from on high...what next?
 National Deficit! Oh, you mean that money which is stolen from future generations in order to prop up the expansion of the state. Stop making excuses for violence and theft. Time to evolve ideas, folks.
  One more reminder (this is for the lefties out there);
   Corporations are Legal Fictions that the GOVERNMENT created, therefore their power comes from the gun that the state carries around everywhere. Last time I checked Wal-Mart doesn't have military-garbed police kicking in doors and shooting your dog because you have the wrong plant-matter in your closet. No, that would be your friend (and humanity's foe) the State.

[hypehat]

Did anyone say it was 'free healthcare'? You'll start going on about 'Obamaphones' next...

You only think some 'other' - read - no-one you know, because you obviously don't associate with such free-loading 47% scum, but you possibly see being POOR elsewhere and hear about on the news - are 'stealing' your money if you're remarkably dim, which the anti-crowd here aren't doing much to convince me of otherwise.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I love it! Violence (aka the government aka )

What are you talking about?

is used to force individuals to pay money for something they would be much better off staying away from (big pharma and the medical industrial complex)

You're sort of right - I mean, Obamacare is a slight improvement on the previous US healthcare system which was barbaric but the US should employ an actual socialized medicare plan and eliminate big pharma and the medical industrial complex.

all in the name of, what, freedom? Better health?

Freedom? When used like people like yourself, it is a mere buzzword with no real meaning. Better health? Most definitely. Better for the economy? Most definitely. Better for the American people in general? Most definitely.

Corporations are Legal Fictions that the GOVERNMENT created, therefore their power comes from the gun that the state carries around everywhere.

I'm glad your "message to lefties" is this stupid. Which corporations? Which government? How do you account for the fact that in many cases corporations have more power than the government? So, in this case, for example, the government is prevented from negotiating drug prices which is one of the reasons why drugs are far more expensive in the US than in other countries in the industrialized world where the government has more control over healthcare.

Last time I checked Wal-Mart doesn't have military-garbed police kicking in doors and shooting your dog because you have the wrong plant-matter in your closet.

No, they just exploit humans in order to profit off of their labor and toss them aside like chattel if they step out of line. In the case you outline, we can participate in a way that prevents such actions. In the case I outline, we can't, at least not without fundamentally altering and undermining the very structure of the corporation. This is why corporations are inherently tyrannical while governments aren't, which is why I can never accept your use of terms like "freedom" as being anything other than a trivial buzzword arbitrarily evoked to con people with genuine desires for some kind of real autonomy.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Did anyone say it was 'free healthcare'?

Of course not. This is fairy tale land, remember.

[Jason]

There's nothing free to begin with.

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act neither protects the patients nor does it offer the "affordable care" referenced in the title. The left just doesn't understand economics and think money grows on trees.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

There's nothing free to begin with.

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act neither protects the patients nor does it offer the "affordable care" referenced in the title. The left just doesn't understand economics and think money grows on trees.

There's no place in the world where health care is free. Don't take that up with us, take it up with the first poster who began this whole discussion with a straw man. There are simply systems that are far more efficient and can function properly and those are the socialized health care systems.

[grillo]

I love it! Violence (aka the government aka )

What are you talking about?

is used to force individuals to pay money for something they would be much better off staying away from (big pharma and the medical industrial complex)

You're sort of right - I mean, Obamacare is a slight improvement on the previous US healthcare system which was barbaric but the US should employ an actual socialized medicare plan and eliminate big pharma and the medical industrial complex.

all in the name of, what, freedom? Better health?

Freedom? When used like people like yourself, it is a mere buzzword with no real meaning. Better health? Most definitely. Better for the economy? Most definitely. Better for the American people in general? Most definitely.

Corporations are Legal Fictions that the GOVERNMENT created, therefore their power comes from the gun that the state carries around everywhere.

I'm glad your "message to lefties" is this stupid. Which corporations? Which government? How do you account for the fact that in many cases corporations have more power than the government? So, in this case, for example, the government is prevented from negotiating drug prices which is one of the reasons why drugs are far more expensive in the US than in other countries in the industrialized world where the government has more control over healthcare.

Last time I checked Wal-Mart doesn't have military-garbed police kicking in doors and shooting your dog because you have the wrong plant-matter in your closet.

No, they just exploit humans in order to profit off of their labor and toss them aside like chattel if they step out of line. In the case you outline, we can participate in a way that prevents such actions. In the case I outline, we can't, at least not without fundamentally altering and undermining the very structure of the corporation. This is why corporations are inherently tyrannical while governments aren't, which is why I can never accept your use of terms like "freedom" as being anything other than a trivial buzzword arbitrarily evoked to con people with genuine desires for some kind of real autonomy.

Okay...
The government IS violence, period. The only way the government functions is using coercion (force, threats of force, etc.) to take individuals wealth (property, money). The government creates nothing at all, other than debt for the unborn.

The US health care industry exists as it is Because of government interference, not despite it. Forcing me (or anyone) to help support it is absurd at best.

Freedom = the rights of the individual to self-ownership, the right to be free from the aggression and intrusion of others, the sanctity of justly acquired private property, and voluntary exchange, voluntary association and voluntary contracts. When used by people like me...

All corporations. And since we are talking about Obamacare, I am speaking of the US government (though all governments are by definition monopolies of violence).

So undermine the corporation taking away the power that the state gives to it.  Stop pretending that government is the savior (in the twentieth century alone governments are responsible for the deaths of over half a billion people. This is called democide.) Why defend this institution that has been tried for, oh, what, 10,000 years? It is failed. Voluntary interactions are 100% of the time preferable. Stop defending the use of violence against me and everyone else.

[Jason]

There's nothing free to begin with.

The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act neither protects the patients nor does it offer the "affordable care" referenced in the title. The left just doesn't understand economics and think money grows on trees.

There's no place in the world where health care is free. Don't take that up with us, take it up with the first poster who began this whole discussion with a straw man. There are simply systems that are far more efficient and can function properly and those are the socialized health care systems.

His "free healthcare 4 ever" thing was facetious...a commentary on Obama's brain-dead supporters - something I can understand very well as I have almost daily discussions with Obama acolytes who think that he's the second coming of Christ and he's going to end the wars and give everyone free health care and a house and car and iPhone 5.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Okay...
The government IS violence, period. The only way the government functions is using coercion (force, threats of force, etc.) to take individuals wealth (property, money).

Well, let's look at this realistically. The government can function non-coercively. So, for example, if we define government as being specifically organized by the public and fully controlled by the public (and this is a reasonable definition and is how democracy should function) then you eliminate coercion. However, if are we going to be honest in our use of the term coercion then we must acknowledge that it is impossible in a capitalist society to attain property and money without coercion. If there is anything that fosters violence and use of force, and reinforces a power dynamic, it is a capitalist economy.

The government creates nothing at all, other than debt for the unborn.

Again, though, in reality, if the government in the United States got more involved in health care they would significantly reduce the debt for the unborn.

The US health care industry exists as it is Because of government interference, not despite it.

That's completely false. I mean, honestly, you're living in a dream world. I repeat, unlike other industrialized countries, the United States government is strictly prohibited from interfering in the affairs of drug companies and therefore have had no control over the amount of waste that the public, by and large, pays for. If the government could interfere, they could significantly reduce health care costs.

Forcing me (or anyone) to help support it is absurd at best.

Well, you're not being forced, for one. And second, you're a hypocrite. The public has essentially been supporting you all your life - essentially created life as you know it - and for you to have the arrogance to now turn your back and say that you don't have to "help support" anyone else is a textbook definition of hypocrisy and also just smugly self-serving.

Freedom = the rights of the individual to self-ownership, the right to be free from the aggression and intrusion of others, the sanctity of justly acquired private property, and voluntary exchange, voluntary association and voluntary contracts. When used by people like me...

Exactly. You simply re-define freedom in order to justify being a corporate apologist. Your definition means just about nothing to anyone who has struggled for real freedom throughout history and to be honest it is a disgrace when you consider what people who have had genuine struggles, participated in them to the full (which meant that they didn't have time to complain about it on the internet) have actually gone through and have actually accomplished.

All corporations.

No, not all corporations. This is not the 1600s.

So undermine the corporation taking away the power that the state gives to it.

The state doesn't give it power. Let's suppose you are correct for a moment that the state creates corporations. So what? It doesn't follow that just because you create something that you empower its ongoing existence. If I died tomorrow, my child would continue to grow without me. What's more, this is just a historical falsity. We've seen what happens in periods of American history where the government interferes less in the corporate world - typically corporate power grows, and public power diminishes. This is just a historical truism and what's more this is true of the present if you compare nation by nation - where the state is less intrusive, the corporate world ends up being more powerful and, most certainly, ends up bolstering the power structure that divides the ownership class from the labor class.

Stop pretending that government is the savior (in the twentieth century alone governments are responsible for the deaths of over half a billion people. This is called democide.) Why defend this institution that has been tried for, oh, what, 10,000 years? It is failed. Voluntary interactions are 100% of the time preferable. Stop defending the use of violence against me and everyone else.

Of course, governments have the capacity to do really bad things. That's a trivial observation. One can easily say that they have the capacity to do excellent things, like, for example, save
 millions of lives every year, which they do. Like, revive dead rivers. Like, end widespread illiteracy. Like create a middle class. The government, of course, is not "the savior" - the public are the ones who can have the actual control and they should use it, which is why they should pressure the government to do these good things and to not do these really bad things, and we know this is perfectly within our capabilities.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

His "free healthcare 4 ever" thing was facetious...a commentary on Obama's brain-dead supporters - something I can understand very well as I have almost daily discussions with Obama acolytes who think that he's the second coming of Christ and he's going to end the wars and give everyone free health care and a house and car and iPhone 5.

That sounds really cool! You must make those people seem really stupid...that is why you do this, right? I mean, as a good Libertarian (aka The Ego Party).

[Jason]

"Me, me, me" is human nature.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

"Me, me, me" is human nature.

Oh, here we go again with that old chestnut, "human nature" which just so happens to fly in the face of real evidence, such as the anarchist collectives in the Second Spanish Republic, the Italian factory occupations, democratic workplaces all over the world, the fact that self-centered systems have essentially had to be beaten into people with extreme violence, the structure of basic human relationships...Given what happens in the real world and what humans actually do and how they perform, it seems that you don't know the first thing about human nature.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

"Me, me, me" is human nature.

Yeah, and this is why a completely free, unregulated "free market" is pure suicide without any sort of enforced organization that YOU will call Government.....

But like I said in that other thread, a lot of "kids" these days (whom I'm not even much older than) are simply too young to actually remember Regan. They can't even envision a time when they didn't love the machine or bend over for their own enslavers.....

Come 'ole Ronnie, the coporations assumed the divine rights Kings had before simply claimed as their own. And for those scoundrels in the game: economics justified it! And what happened? under Reagan's tax cuts, we plunged into the greatest debt in the history of the world. And who came to the rescue? Alan Greenspan who figured Regan could hide part of the debt by borrowing a few billion dollars a year from the social security trust fund...... Figure the rest out......

Oh, and meanwhile JP Morgan/Chase rakes in billions a year processing food stamp payments.......

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Come 'ole Ronnie, the coporations assumed the divine rights Kings had before simply claimed as their own. And for those scoundrels in the game: economics justified it! And what happened? under Reagan's tax cuts, we plunged into the greatest debt in the history of the world.

True, though not just because of tax cuts but also because of Reagan's radical expansion of a protected market system for the wealthy elite. Those two coupled together essentially constituted what was ultimately an extremely disastrous management of the economy.

[RadBooley]

...not this again.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

well I still don't have health care and my health is not in the best of shape, so....I dunno.  More importantly, neither do my wife or daughter. I mean s*** if I die tomorrow who the f*** cares but my daughter is more important.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

but THIS is freedom, right??

http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/20169595/video-shows-shoppers-pushed-shoved-during-black-friday-sales

[Jason]

but THIS is freedom, right??

http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/20169595/video-shows-shoppers-pushed-shoved-during-black-friday-sales

No one forced them to go there at all hours of the night for silly sales. They knew what they'd be in for. I'm neither sympathetic for nor concerned about their plight.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

but THIS is freedom, right??

http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/20169595/video-shows-shoppers-pushed-shoved-during-black-friday-sales

No one forced them to go there at all hours of the night for silly sales. They knew what they'd be in for. I'm neither sympathetic for nor concerned about their plight.

So, ya know, if you left your cave and got hit by a car, I could say the same thing: "Oh, well he was stupid enough to leave his house".....

I"m not trying to make a point that they should be sympathized with. Quite the opposite....