Four more years!

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Slavery never ended...it "evolved" into welfare state measures. If you can't see that welfare was designed to keep the minorities down, you're seriously fooling yourself.

Spoken from the guy who has fooled himself so much that he believes that articles that disagree with him agree with him.

I agree though that slavery never ended - as Abraham Lincoln and the Republican party acknowledged in the 19th Century, capitalism was just another form of slavery and the Republicans in the conservative tradition feared that "wage labor...was supplanting free labor."

[Jason]

They go to work. It's really that simple.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

They go to work. It's really that simple.

How do we overcome the systemic inequality in the capitalist system? And then how do we pretend that the system isn't still particularly tipped against particular segments of society, like African-Americans.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Nothing is ever that simple.

You don't make a lot of money, TRBB. I don't know your situation, but what would happen if you got laid off and then got sick or injured soon afterward. Would you just go to work and all would be solved?

[Dunderhead]

It's interesting to note that health care wasn't always provided through employers. When the government instituted wage controls during world war 2, businesses needed to find a way to compete for scarce labor so they started offering health coverage. Whenever the government steps in and tries to do something, it creates unexpected consequences that require additional government interference to solve, and those solutions cause even more problems which require more intervention to solve. One problem leads to 2, leads to 4, leads to 16, and spending grows exponentially.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

It's interesting to note that health care wasn't always provided through employers. When the government instituted wage controls during world war 2, businesses needed to find a way to compete for scarce labor so they started offering health coverage. Whenever the government steps in and tries to do something, it creates unexpected consequences that require additional government interference to solve, and those solutions cause even more problems which require more intervention to solve. One problem leads to 2, leads to 4, leads to 16, and spending grows exponentially.

So why does the United States have the most expensive health care system in the industrialized world?

[Jason]

They go to work. It's really that simple.

How do we overcome the systemic inequality in the capitalist system? And then how do we pretend that the system isn't still particularly tipped against particular segments of society, like African-Americans.

Capitalism is all about equality. Two people engaging in voluntary exchange of whatever. Capitalism is not a racist or racialist system, either. That's government, for you...capitalists never took human rights away from Africans who were brought to the United States. The government did. And the government continued to allow it. What are rights if some governmental body can just take them away? sh*t, ask the Japanese, the Germans, and the Italians who were interred in concentration camps in World War II.

[Dunderhead]

It's interesting to note that health care wasn't always provided through employers. When the government instituted wage controls during world war 2, businesses needed to find a way to compete for scarce labor so they started offering health coverage. Whenever the government steps in and tries to do something, it creates unexpected consequences that require additional government interference to solve, and those solutions cause even more problems which require more intervention to solve. One problem leads to 2, leads to 4, leads to 16, and spending grows exponentially.

So why does the United States have the most expensive health care system in the industrialized world?

I'm not sure how that question follows.

[Dunderhead]

Price is the mitigating factor, price controls create inequality because the natural equilibrium that prices would assume is prevented in order to ensure outcomes preselected by regulators. Price controls create inequality because they give either the buyer or seller in a transaction an unfair advantage. The systemic inequality you're talking about is explicitly caused by government intervention. 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

They go to work. It's really that simple.

How do we overcome the systemic inequality in the capitalist system? And then how do we pretend that the system isn't still particularly tipped against particular segments of society, like African-Americans.

Capitalism is all about equality. Two people engaging in voluntary exchange of whatever. Capitalism is not a racist or racialist system, either. That's government, for you...capitalists never took human rights away from Africans who were brought to the United States. The government did. And the government continued to allow it. What are rights if some governmental body can just take them away? sh*t, ask the Japanese, the Germans, and the Italians who were interred in concentration camps in World War II.

What might be true in conception is seriously lacking in excecution.

And it's not like myself or anyone else are so seriously in love with Government but nor are we seething with misdirected hatred of it either.

[Jason]

Nothing is ever that simple.

You don't make a lot of money, TRBB. I don't know your situation, but what would happen if you got laid off and then got sick or injured soon afterward. Would you just go to work and all would be solved?

If I got laid off I'd be on the job hunt as soon as I left the building. I would try my damnedest to ensure that I get a job as soon as possible. See, unlike most Americans, I'm not "above" doing menial tasks. Before I was a shift manager at a restaurant I was the dishwasher. It sucked but it was a paycheck. If I have to go back to washing dishes, I'm not going to bitch and moan and say I'll sponge off of the taxpayers. I have a little thing called PRIDE. If it means washing dishes, so be it. I'll be making money and I'll be able to figure things out from there.

At one point I was without health insurance for two years. All the more reason to work harder and save more just so I could afford a private plan. And I did it. Wasn't the easiest of diets mind you, what with rent and other expenses, but I did it. Then I ended up in my current position and was lucky to have benefits.

You operate off of the mentality that people are helpless. I don't believe that. Lazy, sure. Spoiled, f*** YEAH. Helpless, no. Not at all. Sometimes work means you roll up your damned sleeves and work over a sink for twelve hours.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Price is the mitigating factor, price controls create inequality because the natural equilibrium that prices would assume is prevented in order to ensure outcomes preselected by regulators. Price controls create inequality because they give either the buyer or seller in a transaction an unfair advantage. The systemic inequality you're talking about is explicitly caused by government intervention. 

Fishmonk, would you please quit droning on simply explaining things we already know?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Capitalism is all about equality. Two people engaging in voluntary exchange of whatever.

You're talking about a free market - or I should say you think you're talking about a free market, because you're not even talking about that - not capitalism. Free markets can exist in socialist states. Capitalism is simply the private ownership of the means of production and the creation of products specifically for profit. And yes, within this structure, inequality is inevitable - it's built into the system.

Capitalism is not a racist or racialist system, either.

I didn't say that but you can basically chalk up a great deal of modern racism as being an outgrowth of capitalism. But that has nothing to do with what I said. What I meant was that many welfare programs help to rectify the fact that a history of racism has ultimately left some people more disadvantaged than others and to take those programs away and simply say work, fails to account for that inequality. It would be nice to pretend that we can all start from scratch, but taking away government programs certainly doesn't do that.

That's government, for you...capitalists never took human rights away from Africans who were brought to the United States. The government did.

For what reason? For fun? No, because slaves constituted cheap labor which is crucial in a capitalist market.

[Dunderhead]

If you already knew them I wouldn't bother explaining them.

[Jason]

They go to work. It's really that simple.

How do we overcome the systemic inequality in the capitalist system? And then how do we pretend that the system isn't still particularly tipped against particular segments of society, like African-Americans.

Capitalism is all about equality. Two people engaging in voluntary exchange of whatever. Capitalism is not a racist or racialist system, either. That's government, for you...capitalists never took human rights away from Africans who were brought to the United States. The government did. And the government continued to allow it. What are rights if some governmental body can just take them away? sh*t, ask the Japanese, the Germans, and the Italians who were interred in concentration camps in World War II.

What might be true in conception is seriously lacking in excecution.

And it's not like myself or anyone else are so seriously in love with Government but nor are we seething with misdirected hatred of it either.

My problem with government is that it is such a woefully ineffective, wasteful, and mismanaged affair that monkeys could do it better. Even a nutcase like Ronald Reagan understood that government was a farce. Of course, what he understood and what he did were two different things...

[Chocolate Shake Man]

It's interesting to note that health care wasn't always provided through employers. When the government instituted wage controls during world war 2, businesses needed to find a way to compete for scarce labor so they started offering health coverage. Whenever the government steps in and tries to do something, it creates unexpected consequences that require additional government interference to solve, and those solutions cause even more problems which require more intervention to solve. One problem leads to 2, leads to 4, leads to 16, and spending grows exponentially.

So why does the United States have the most expensive health care system in the industrialized world?

I'm not sure how that question follows.

You noted that as soon as the government intervenes, "spending grows exponentially" but the United States has long had the most private health care system in the industrialized world and the most expensive. So since your claim appears false, I'm curious why you believe the US spends so much more on health care than any other country with a socialized health care system.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Price is the mitigating factor, price controls create inequality because the natural equilibrium that prices would assume is prevented in order to ensure outcomes preselected by regulators. Price controls create inequality because they give either the buyer or seller in a transaction an unfair advantage. The systemic inequality you're talking about is explicitly caused by government intervention. 

No, I'm talking about how the capitalist system creates wealth through the exploitation of surplus value.  A worker creates more goods than he could possibly need, and the excess is sold on the market.  In this sense, the working class will continue to be at a disadvantage because the value of their labor will go straight to the top. That is an inequality that is built into the capitalist model and it is the reason why in capitalist countries with less government protection, you find a much larger gap between the wealthy and the poor because the system is built to create that gap.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

You have no idea what I do or do not know.

Fishmonk: I gotta say, upon thinking about just why I react so harshly to your posts, I think it has to do with your avatar! Your posts along with the image of a bearded, smirking Mike might bring about the wrong chemical reaction!!

Who was it who had the avatar of David Leaf a while back? That guy didn't seem to have it very easy!

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

It's different when you have a family to support though. I had a job making almost 40K per year which I lost after a mild stroke. I couldn't get nothing but min wage job. Wife is on disability. Can't afford insurance on any of us including my five year old. Better job now but still no insurance and make too much for assistance. Some nights I go hungry

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

That's what I'm saying. TRBB seems to think that everyone has the same circumstances and that sh*t just plainly doesn't happen.

[Dunderhead]

but the United States has long had the most private health care system in the industrialized world

Contentious.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

but the United States has long had the most private health care system in the industrialized world

Contentious.

No it isn't.

[Dunderhead]

Price is the mitigating factor, price controls create inequality because the natural equilibrium that prices would assume is prevented in order to ensure outcomes preselected by regulators. Price controls create inequality because they give either the buyer or seller in a transaction an unfair advantage. The systemic inequality you're talking about is explicitly caused by government intervention. 

No, I'm talking about how the capitalist system creates wealth through the exploitation of surplus value.  A worker creates more goods than he could possibly need, and the excess is sold on the market.  In this sense, the working class will continue to be at a disadvantage because the value of their labor will go straight to the top. That is an inequality that is built into the capitalist model and it is the reason why in capitalist countries with less government protection, you find a much larger gap between the wealthy and the poor because the system is built to create that gap.

The difference between us is that you view things through the lens of marxist social theory and I conceptualize them from the vantage of modern scientific/statistical economics.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Price is the mitigating factor, price controls create inequality because the natural equilibrium that prices would assume is prevented in order to ensure outcomes preselected by regulators. Price controls create inequality because they give either the buyer or seller in a transaction an unfair advantage. The systemic inequality you're talking about is explicitly caused by government intervention. 

No, I'm talking about how the capitalist system creates wealth through the exploitation of surplus value.  A worker creates more goods than he could possibly need, and the excess is sold on the market.  In this sense, the working class will continue to be at a disadvantage because the value of their labor will go straight to the top. That is an inequality that is built into the capitalist model and it is the reason why in capitalist countries with less government protection, you find a much larger gap between the wealthy and the poor because the system is built to create that gap.

The difference between us is that you view things through the lens of marxist social theory and I conceptualize them from the vantage of modern scientific/statistical economics.

No, you're just lying. Explain to me how the system does not work in the way that I described it.

[Dunderhead]

That's fine.