"Barnyard Blues" and "I Don't Know"

[Micha]

I couldn't find a thread on this, so here's a new one: Has anybody ever noticed the resemblance between "I Don't Know" from TSS and "Barnyard Blues" from MIC? About the same riff and the same key.

[The Shift]

Nice spot Micha.  I'd been thinking Barnyard also sounds like the link between Wonderful and Song For Children on BWPS…

[punkinhead]

I'm not sure about those, not listened to Barnyard Blues closely enough...but I've always had the understanding that Brian borrowed some of DW's (wouldn't be the first time) I Don't Know for the Gershwin/BW instrumental I've got Plenty of Nuttin. What do you guys think?

[guitarfool2002]

If anything the main descending bassline-hook of "I Don't Know" sounds most like a direct nick of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" to me, with a modulation giving some interest. If we're going to suggest anyone borrowed an idea from "I Don't Know", and if we were to play it for people who had never heard it and didn't know the Beach Boys, they'd probably say that bass hook reminds them most of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star".

Barnyard Blues - Yes, it's the same descending bass melody, but in that case it's only 2 bars of music and again it could also be tagged to "Twinkle Twinkle" as much as "I Don't Know".

I *definitely* hear "Wonderful" in that keyboard. No doubt. But what gets to me on a track like "Barnyard Blues" and others is when I hear things that Brian was doing in 1966...showing up not much later in BB's history on a variety of BB's tracks...I get the mental image of Al Jardine in some random interview bitching and moaning about the "weird" scenes like Brian asking them to make animal noises and grunting and chanting sounds on the studio floor, and how Al and others were apparently "repulsed" by such a scene...

...then they use similar if not the exact same "repulsive" stuff later when they needed material or needed to give a stalled-out track a sonic kick in the pants? Damn. 

[bgas]

Welcome back guitarfool; is your banning over?

[Al Jardine: Pick Up Artist]

Slightly offtopic, but I really really really really really love Barnyard Blues. Awesome track.

[bluesno1fann]

Slightly offtopic, but I really really really really really love Barnyard Blues. Awesome track.

Really? Don't much care for Barnyard Blues. The sound effects don't do the song any good, it's sadly the first (at least I think) example of Denny's new rough voice, and it's just an overall boring song

[groganb]

Of course, for the ultimate BW take on "Twinkle Twinkle," there's "And Your Dream Comes True."

[Micha]

If anything the main descending bassline-hook of "I Don't Know" sounds most like a direct nick of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" to me, with a modulation giving some interest. If we're going to suggest anyone borrowed an idea from "I Don't Know", and if we were to play it for people who had never heard it and didn't know the Beach Boys, they'd probably say that bass hook reminds them most of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star".

Barnyard Blues - Yes, it's the same descending bass melody, but in that case it's only 2 bars of music and again it could also be tagged to "Twinkle Twinkle" as much as "I Don't Know".

I disagree. I had to look up what the "Twinkle" melody and found that it is a melody that here in Germany is used for a christmas song and for recounting the alphabet, so it was well known to me too, but I wasn't reminded of it. And still I don't hear a direct link to the "I Don't Know" / "Barnyard Blues" bass line even if part of the melody is similar. It is a very basic bass line, so you'd probably manage to find more songs with those four notes used.

[pixletwin]

I don't believe a descending bass pattern (such as the B section of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star) can be rightfully considered as "borrowing" from anything. It's based from a common chord progression which is not unique to any one song.

[guitarfool2002]

If anything the main descending bassline-hook of "I Don't Know" sounds most like a direct nick of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" to me, with a modulation giving some interest. If we're going to suggest anyone borrowed an idea from "I Don't Know", and if we were to play it for people who had never heard it and didn't know the Beach Boys, they'd probably say that bass hook reminds them most of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star".

Barnyard Blues - Yes, it's the same descending bass melody, but in that case it's only 2 bars of music and again it could also be tagged to "Twinkle Twinkle" as much as "I Don't Know".

I disagree. I had to look up what the "Twinkle" melody and found that it is a melody that here in Germany is used for a christmas song and for recounting the alphabet, so it was well known to me too, but I wasn't reminded of it. And still I don't hear a direct link to the "I Don't Know" / "Barnyard Blues" bass line even if part of the melody is similar. It is a very basic bass line, so you'd probably manage to find more songs with those four notes used.

This is why I haven't posted more than a few times in the last month. With all due respect, and if I come off a little miffed I might just be, if I'm going to have someone here disagree with what Twinkle Twinkle Little Star's melody is or what it sounds like, and disagree when another song has EXACTLY the same notes in the same sequence in nearly the same phrasing and rhythmic scheme, I'm in the wrong fucking business.    Which could be a possibility.

Just to keep my musical skills sharp, here's a breakdown. Grab a bass, a guitar, whatever...plug in the ol' Gibson Maestro Fuzztone, either the FZ-1 or the FZ-1A, whatever floats your boat...and play along with Denny and the band:

The first fuzz line we hear on the 1967 "I Don't Know" recording is this:

GG  FF  EE  DD  
GG  FF  EE  DD

Then it modulates down to D, same phrase:
DD  CC  BB  AA

Then back again:
GG  FF  EE  D (hold this D....)


Bgas: It was a self-imposed hiatus. For reasons such as this.    I'm up for a debate, but when a constant stream of absolutely pointless sh*t gets posted here daily, and certain posters who shall remain nameless and have been since given lifetime bans were allowed to step all over the rules repeatedly and barely receive a challenge yet someone is questioning something as silly as Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and actually publicly challenging what I wrote about it, as if a musical phrase shared verbatim by two musical passages can be challenged in some way above or beyond the notes and phrases being EXACTLY THE SAME, it's time to bail. Or drop out, or let the pointless "what was Denny's favorite brand of gum?" and threads about trolls and feeding trolls get praised as "best thread in history" or whatever, yeah, it's f***ed up.

There's my breaking point, for all to see. I love debates but if I'm peeling an orange I won't allow someone to come up to me and tell me it's an apple.

   Back to the funhouse.

[bgas]

If anything the main descending bassline-hook of "I Don't Know" sounds most like a direct nick of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" to me, with a modulation giving some interest. If we're going to suggest anyone borrowed an idea from "I Don't Know", and if we were to play it for people who had never heard it and didn't know the Beach Boys, they'd probably say that bass hook reminds them most of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star".

Barnyard Blues - Yes, it's the same descending bass melody, but in that case it's only 2 bars of music and again it could also be tagged to "Twinkle Twinkle" as much as "I Don't Know".

I disagree. I had to look up what the "Twinkle" melody and found that it is a melody that here in Germany is used for a christmas song and for recounting the alphabet, so it was well known to me too, but I wasn't reminded of it. And still I don't hear a direct link to the "I Don't Know" / "Barnyard Blues" bass line even if part of the melody is similar. It is a very basic bass line, so you'd probably manage to find more songs with those four notes used.

This is why I haven't posted more than a few times in the last month. With all due respect, and if I come off a little miffed I might just be, if I'm going to have someone here disagree with what Twinkle Twinkle Little Star's melody is or what it sounds like, and disagree when another song has EXACTLY the same notes in the same sequence in nearly the same phrasing and rhythmic scheme, I'm in the wrong fucking business.    Which could be a possibility.

Just to keep my musical skills sharp, here's a breakdown. Grab a bass, a guitar, whatever...plug in the ol' Gibson Maestro Fuzztone, either the FZ-1 or the FZ-1A, whatever floats your boat...and play along with Denny and the band:

The first fuzz line we hear on the 1967 "I Don't Know" recording is this:

GG  FF  EE  DD  
GG  FF  EE  DD

Then it modulates down to D, same phrase:
DD  CC  BB  AA

Then back again:
GG  FF  EE  D (hold this D....)


Bgas: It was a self-imposed hiatus. For reasons such as this.    I'm up for a debate, but when a constant stream of absolutely pointless sh*t gets posted here daily, and certain posters who shall remain nameless and have been since given lifetime bans were allowed to step all over the rules repeatedly and barely receive a challenge yet someone is questioning something as silly as Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and actually publicly challenging what I wrote about it, as if a musical phrase shared verbatim by two musical passages can be challenged in some way above or beyond the notes and phrases being EXACTLY THE SAME, it's time to bail. Or drop out, or let the pointless "what was Denny's favorite brand of gum?" and threads about trolls and feeding trolls get praised as "best thread in history" or whatever, yeah, it's f***ed up.

There's my breaking point, for all to see. I love debates but if I'm peeling an orange I won't allow someone to come up to me and tell me it's an apple.

   Back to the funhouse.

Ya know it's been many years, but I seem to remember that time I dropped a few too many tabs, was blown way way away, and when I peeled that orange, lo and behold there was an apple! 

[guitarfool2002]

If anything the main descending bassline-hook of "I Don't Know" sounds most like a direct nick of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" to me, with a modulation giving some interest. If we're going to suggest anyone borrowed an idea from "I Don't Know", and if we were to play it for people who had never heard it and didn't know the Beach Boys, they'd probably say that bass hook reminds them most of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star".

Barnyard Blues - Yes, it's the same descending bass melody, but in that case it's only 2 bars of music and again it could also be tagged to "Twinkle Twinkle" as much as "I Don't Know".

I disagree. I had to look up what the "Twinkle" melody and found that it is a melody that here in Germany is used for a christmas song and for recounting the alphabet, so it was well known to me too, but I wasn't reminded of it. And still I don't hear a direct link to the "I Don't Know" / "Barnyard Blues" bass line even if part of the melody is similar. It is a very basic bass line, so you'd probably manage to find more songs with those four notes used.

This is why I haven't posted more than a few times in the last month. With all due respect, and if I come off a little miffed I might just be, if I'm going to have someone here disagree with what Twinkle Twinkle Little Star's melody is or what it sounds like, and disagree when another song has EXACTLY the same notes in the same sequence in nearly the same phrasing and rhythmic scheme, I'm in the wrong fucking business.    Which could be a possibility.

Just to keep my musical skills sharp, here's a breakdown. Grab a bass, a guitar, whatever...plug in the ol' Gibson Maestro Fuzztone, either the FZ-1 or the FZ-1A, whatever floats your boat...and play along with Denny and the band:

The first fuzz line we hear on the 1967 "I Don't Know" recording is this:

GG  FF  EE  DD  
GG  FF  EE  DD

Then it modulates down to D, same phrase:
DD  CC  BB  AA

Then back again:
GG  FF  EE  D (hold this D....)


Bgas: It was a self-imposed hiatus. For reasons such as this.    I'm up for a debate, but when a constant stream of absolutely pointless sh*t gets posted here daily, and certain posters who shall remain nameless and have been since given lifetime bans were allowed to step all over the rules repeatedly and barely receive a challenge yet someone is questioning something as silly as Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and actually publicly challenging what I wrote about it, as if a musical phrase shared verbatim by two musical passages can be challenged in some way above or beyond the notes and phrases being EXACTLY THE SAME, it's time to bail. Or drop out, or let the pointless "what was Denny's favorite brand of gum?" and threads about trolls and feeding trolls get praised as "best thread in history" or whatever, yeah, it's f***ed up.

There's my breaking point, for all to see. I love debates but if I'm peeling an orange I won't allow someone to come up to me and tell me it's an apple.

   Back to the funhouse.

Ya know it's been many years, but I seem to remember that time I dropped a few too many tabs, was blown way way away, and when I peeled that orange, lo and behold there was an apple! 

  Classic!  For the record, I always pegged Dennis Wilson as being either a Teaberry or Juicy Fruit kind of gum chewer. Or maybe he liked Blackjack, you know, the old classics. Brian, I see him liking that stale pink gum that came wrapped in the old Topps baseball card packs, while they still made it that is. 

[guitarfool2002]

Rather than describe it, here is a video I just made on my low-tech Windows Movie Maker, very roughly edited, and posted to YouTube. "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star is from a beginner piano tutorial video found on a quick YouTube search, and "I Don't Know" is taken directly from the Smile Sessions box, with the bass/fuzz line playing by itself just as it appears on the box set.

I did no time-stretching, no pitch correction, no tempo modifications, absolutely nothing except put both of the audio tracks from YouTube next to each other in sequence in Windows Movie Maker.

So..."Mozart Smile" as I call it, aka "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and I Don't Know"...any questions on the similarity of the two pieces of music heard here at this point? 

http://youtu.be/vL-DZnzQxXE

[punkinhead]

Of course, for the ultimate BW take on "Twinkle Twinkle," there's "And Your Dream Comes True."

I always thought And Your Dreams Come True was Baa Baa Black Sheep.

[pixletwin]

If anything the main descending bassline-hook of "I Don't Know" sounds most like a direct nick of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" to me, with a modulation giving some interest. If we're going to suggest anyone borrowed an idea from "I Don't Know", and if we were to play it for people who had never heard it and didn't know the Beach Boys, they'd probably say that bass hook reminds them most of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star".

Barnyard Blues - Yes, it's the same descending bass melody, but in that case it's only 2 bars of music and again it could also be tagged to "Twinkle Twinkle" as much as "I Don't Know".

I disagree. I had to look up what the "Twinkle" melody and found that it is a melody that here in Germany is used for a christmas song and for recounting the alphabet, so it was well known to me too, but I wasn't reminded of it. And still I don't hear a direct link to the "I Don't Know" / "Barnyard Blues" bass line even if part of the melody is similar. It is a very basic bass line, so you'd probably manage to find more songs with those four notes used.

This is why I haven't posted more than a few times in the last month. With all due respect, and if I come off a little miffed I might just be, if I'm going to have someone here disagree with what Twinkle Twinkle Little Star's melody is or what it sounds like, and disagree when another song has EXACTLY the same notes in the same sequence in nearly the same phrasing and rhythmic scheme, I'm in the wrong fucking business.    Which could be a possibility.

Just to keep my musical skills sharp, here's a breakdown. Grab a bass, a guitar, whatever...plug in the ol' Gibson Maestro Fuzztone, either the FZ-1 or the FZ-1A, whatever floats your boat...and play along with Denny and the band:

The first fuzz line we hear on the 1967 "I Don't Know" recording is this:

GG  FF  EE  DD  
GG  FF  EE  DD

Then it modulates down to D, same phrase:
DD  CC  BB  AA

Then back again:
GG  FF  EE  D (hold this D....)


Bgas: It was a self-imposed hiatus. For reasons such as this.    I'm up for a debate, but when a constant stream of absolutely pointless sh*t gets posted here daily, and certain posters who shall remain nameless and have been since given lifetime bans were allowed to step all over the rules repeatedly and barely receive a challenge yet someone is questioning something as silly as Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and actually publicly challenging what I wrote about it, as if a musical phrase shared verbatim by two musical passages can be challenged in some way above or beyond the notes and phrases being EXACTLY THE SAME, it's time to bail. Or drop out, or let the pointless "what was Denny's favorite brand of gum?" and threads about trolls and feeding trolls get praised as "best thread in history" or whatever, yeah, it's f***ed up.

There's my breaking point, for all to see. I love debates but if I'm peeling an orange I won't allow someone to come up to me and tell me it's an apple.

   Back to the funhouse.

I hope none of this post was in reference to what I posted. I wasn't disputing that the descending bass sequence wasn't identical to Twinkle Twinkle Little Star.. It is... My point was that it isn't a unique sequence and to say that it is "a direct nick of 'Twinkle Twinkle Little Star' " is a bit of a misrepresentation.

[Micha]

My point was that it isn't a unique sequence and to say that it is "a direct nick of 'Twinkle Twinkle Little Star' " is a bit of a misrepresentation.

I agree with this.

I didn't expect guitarfool to be that sensitive about criticism. So if you want to, the fact that the bass line of I Don't know did not in the least remind me of the same notes being used in the middle part of the Twinkle song proves your musical superiority over me. Congratulations.

[bgas]

  HEY YOU GUYS   

         

[pixletwin]

Wrong thread:

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,16356.0.html

tee hee

[feelsflow]

guitarfool2002,  I enjoy your posts.  You should continue to share your knowledge.  This crap going on right now with the over-excited posters will calm down soon.  Hopefully.  

I forget the thread title, but Jon Stebbins made an interesting post the other day that ties all the new younger fans to the re-union shows/TWGMTR.  If so, they will move on to the next Big Thing soon.  It's okay by me if the boys put out another record, but it's not too likely.

What I was thinking brought in new posters (haven't been posting too long myself), is that Smiley Smile is a high quality place to share thoughts.  And not just about the Beach Boys.  You added greatly to Billy's Beatles Thread.  That and a few others made me want to join in instead of just reading.  But it is a tightrope sometimes.  Emotionally it is much different to post.  Again, hope you stick around.   peace,  Will  

[Awesoman]

Slightly offtopic, but I really really really really really love Barnyard Blues. Awesome track.

Really? Don't much care for Barnyard Blues. The sound effects don't do the song any good, it's sadly the first (at least I think) example of Denny's new rough voice, and it's just an overall boring song

I actually dig the song.  Quite soulful (despite the animal sounds).  It probably could have benefitted from better lyrics, but as it stands I find it enjoyable.

[Mr. Wilson]

Well there are only 12 notes in the western scale so if on purpose or not .. Everything ever recorded in the history of music is gonna remind you of something else.. Especially if you are a working musician.... ( La Bamba.. Twist + Shout.. Good Lovin..}  (  Louie Louie.. Hang On Sloopy]  And of course lets not mention Country Music.. Blues.. Or 50's music at all.. Chuck Berry anyone..??..  Guitar Intro to Fun Fun Fun... Johnny B Goode.. NOT an Attack.. Just sayin.. IMHO.. The key to originality in music is the MELODY over the tried + true chords we all play.. And the arraignment used.. Seems to me that's why Brian Wilson was called a genius.. He had only the 12 notes like the rest of us.. Case in point.. The Warmth of the Sun

[Mr. Cohen]

Who cares? "I Don't Know" is a pretty dumb song. "HEYY BR!@NN l00kz i can haz DESCENDING BASS LINE" is about the vibe I get from it. He'd become a much better songwriter over the next couple of years.

[guitarfool2002]

My point was that it isn't a unique sequence and to say that it is "a direct nick of 'Twinkle Twinkle Little Star' " is a bit of a misrepresentation.

I agree with this.

I didn't expect guitarfool to be that sensitive about criticism. So if you want to, the fact that the bass line of I Don't know did not in the least remind me of the same notes being used in the middle part of the Twinkle song proves your musical superiority over me. Congratulations.

It's not about proving musical superiority over anyone, but at the same time since I've been posting here and elsewhere about music from a musician's perspective for more than a decade, and Micha, since we have in the past corresponded via email and traded CD's with each other and sort of know where we're both coming from professionally, it felt like there was more going on than disagreeing based on opinions of a nursery rhyme melody. Yes, I did react strongly because it felt like something as basic as the notes of a child's nursery rhyme that most of us heard and sang before age 4 was being used for the sake of disagreeing just to disagree with someone specific rather than debating opinions of the topic at hand. If I'm wrong, or if I read it wrong, than I'm sorry. But at some point, and I need to find it too, there needs to be an "EDIT" button that we can push before saying or implying certain things.

You're in music education, and I'm in music education, different aspects of the same basic field. As such, there is or at least should be a common understanding (and implied mutual respect, IMO) that we know certain things having studied them most of our lives and having been certified to practice and even teach them in a professional sense. In the same way, I was actually shocked to read the words "I disagree" about something as basic as analyzing that melody, because it is not only so familiar but in a musical sense, it can be grafted back and forth between the Mozart and the Smile Sessions track as to be almost beyond question that they share the same notes, rhythm, and other musical traits. In the heat of the moment I patched together that YouTube clip in 10 minutes because, once again, I couldn't believe that someone - anyone - with a musical background could argue that the phrases were alike to the point the Dennis bass track could fit seamlessly into a random piano recording of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star".

But, I may have read it wrong, and if so my reaction was too strong in return and for that I apologize. At the same time, I still felt like there was an element of disagreeing just to disagree rather than a normal debate or exchange of ideas. I'll state again, as soon as I heard "I Don't Know" for the first time, it sounded like the nursery rhyme, and that YouTube clip was made to show where that impression I posted came from. And yes, it felt wrong to have something like that questioned.

And if any of it comes from a previous board, previous posters, or any other incidental factors from other sources, please drop me a line and let me know. Because this and other exchanges sound like some other posters and other places from the past that would say the same kinds of things in the same kinds of situations in order to stir up sh*t with their target of the moment rather than have an actual conversation on a fan forum. I won't name names. 

That's where I'm coming from. And if anything, that YouTube vid shows that not only are they the same, but in a very eerie way they fit *exactly* together, even in tempo, and this between a 1967 unreleased recording of a fuzz bassline and a modern piano-teacher tutorial recorded in the past few years found randomly. That is weird.