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Author Topic: should they have experimented with a harder sound?  (Read 18991 times)
MBE
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« Reply #50 on: October 07, 2012, 02:34:32 PM »

I think "Student Demonstration Time" is a clunker for its lyrics more than the music, which is a fine display of Carl's ability to actually rock out. And yet I can't bring myself to quite say it's a good track...

I really hate Student Demonstration Time.  The megaphone effect on Mike's vocal, the goshdarn sirens, it's just a really sloppy production and it sticks out like a sore thumb on the Surf's Up album. 

And I love how Mike tries to pretend that they were making a relevant statement in the "American Band" documentary. 

"Surfing and cars were okay but there was a war going on."  LOL
COMMENT: 

There is no right nor wrong in art, only preference.   But I would take issue with you on saying the production values are sloppy, just because you don't like the sound of a megaphone or sirens. The production values of this song are just as strong, and more complex, than other songs on the Surf's Up album.

If you lived through the 60s, the civil riots, the unrest, the antiwar demonstrations, the crowds of unruly students in the streets, with hundreds of young soldiers dieing every day -- every day, and in-depth TV coverage of people being shot at close range coming into our living rooms every night, you might have more understanding of "the why and wherefore" of the song being part of a surf album. 

Yes, Michael is very correct in stating his concerns. He was seeing all this going on in Santa Barbara, CA where he lived. It was in his front yard. It was in all our lives. It was a sick time. The country was sick. And much of it was needless.

So Michael was moved to write a song about war protest. His approach was to offer vocal advice to the listener as to what to do when you may be caught up in one of these civil unrests -- so as not to get killed.  Remember Kent State was still in the news when the lyrics were written.

Production Values.  The tonal picture Michael wished to paint OR the setting he wanted use to present his song did give me a challenge to keep production values at their standards and still make a listenable song.

Picture Michael speaking to a crowd of students that are in a rally, in a school yard, surrounded by school buildings and administration structures. He is speaking to them using a PA system and the reflection of his speech is bouncing off of the buildings. There is also other activity and antiwar demonstrations taking place. the sirens are moving around the school yard builds and can be heard around you.

Unfortunately, the sound picture colapes fairly flat in stereo. When you hear this song properly (with Matrix resolution) the production makes more sense. You do get a sense of the school yard space and the buildings sound further removed. The sirens move around the room, not just side to side. The lyric message remains the same, but the production values put into the sound-picture are more easily heard and appreciated.

Some day soon you will hear what I mean.  Until then,

Good Listening,
  ~Stephen W. Desper
I love the track myself, never understood why anyone wouldn't. It's of the times for sure (I mean that in a good way), but it rocks like hell and I think the production is tight and spot on.
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halblaineisgood
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« Reply #51 on: October 07, 2012, 05:48:05 PM »

Where did that rockin' piano sound on Student Demonstration come from? From a mandolin rail? http://www.player-care.com/mandolin.html
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 05:53:26 PM by halblaineisgood » Logged
MBE
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« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2012, 06:10:29 PM »

The only thing I can think of is that maybe some Beach Boys fans just don't like hard rock. I do at least hard rock as it was defined in 1971 so maybe that's why it works for me.
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Cabinessenceking
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« Reply #53 on: October 08, 2012, 05:22:51 AM »

The only thing I can think of is that maybe some Beach Boys fans just don't like hard rock. I do at least hard rock as it was defined in 1971 so maybe that's why it works for me.

Personally, I don't listen to it quite as much, but I still dig Led Zep, Deep Purple, Doors, Joy Division, Hendrix etc. and much of the late 70's punk music like The Clash.
It's when the 80's come along with all the horrible hardrock/love ballads that my interest evaporates.
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Steve Mayo
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« Reply #54 on: October 08, 2012, 05:35:34 AM »

always liked the song. my local fm radio station played the heck out of that song when the lp came out. along with don't go near the water. this was back in the day when am radio was top 40 stuff and fm was lp cuts.
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« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2015, 06:45:51 PM »

I think "Student Demonstration Time" is a clunker for its lyrics more than the music, which is a fine display of Carl's ability to actually rock out. And yet I can't bring myself to quite say it's a good track...

I really hate Student Demonstration Time.  The megaphone effect on Mike's vocal, the goshdarn sirens, it's just a really sloppy production and it sticks out like a sore thumb on the Surf's Up album. 

And I love how Mike tries to pretend that they were making a relevant statement in the "American Band" documentary. 

"Surfing and cars were okay but there was a war going on."  LOL
COMMENT: 

There is no right nor wrong in art, only preference.   But I would take issue with you on saying the production values are sloppy, just because you don't like the sound of a megaphone or sirens. The production values of this song are just as strong, and more complex, than other songs on the Surf's Up album.

If you lived through the 60s, the civil riots, the unrest, the antiwar demonstrations, the crowds of unruly students in the streets, with hundreds of young soldiers dieing every day -- every day, and in-depth TV coverage of people being shot at close range coming into our living rooms every night, you might have more understanding of "the why and wherefore" of the song being part of a surf album. 

Yes, Michael is very correct in stating his concerns. He was seeing all this going on in Santa Barbara, CA where he lived. It was in his front yard. It was in all our lives. It was a sick time. The country was sick. And much of it was needless.

So Michael was moved to write a song about war protest. His approach was to offer vocal advice to the listener as to what to do when you may be caught up in one of these civil unrests -- so as not to get killed.  Remember Kent State was still in the news when the lyrics were written.

Production Values.  The tonal picture Michael wished to paint OR the setting he wanted use to present his song did give me a challenge to keep production values at their standards and still make a listenable song.

Picture Michael speaking to a crowd of students that are in a rally, in a school yard, surrounded by school buildings and administration structures. He is speaking to them using a PA system and the reflection of his speech is bouncing off of the buildings. There is also other activity and antiwar demonstrations taking place. the sirens are moving around the school yard builds and can be heard around you.

Unfortunately, the sound picture colapes fairly flat in stereo. When you hear this song properly (with Matrix resolution) the production makes more sense. You do get a sense of the school yard space and the buildings sound further removed. The sirens move around the room, not just side to side. The lyric message remains the same, but the production values put into the sound-picture are more easily heard and appreciated.

Some day soon you will hear what I mean.  Until then,

Good Listening,
  ~Stephen W. Desper
Thread bump for "Annoying Songs."
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Lee Marshall
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« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2015, 07:12:14 PM »

Anyway...they DID experiment with a HARDER sound heading out of the 60s and up til 1974ish.  They also had a harder sound LIVE.  I very much liked it.  It was part of the progress...which sadly ended with the release of Endless Summer and the 'advent' of 15 'big' ones.  After that?  There were some great songs and way too many stinkers...and the Beach Boys slowly but surely became Sha na na at the Beach.

I love all kinds of music...but it's GOTTA be music.  From Bob Marley and Beres Hammond to Joe Bonamassa and Stevie Ray Vaughan.  From the Association, Turtles and Mamas and Papas to Deep Purple, Mark Ronson and Rival Sons.

What I didn't really dig was how the 'Boys' just seemed to run out of direction and ideas and how it just became more and more difficult for them to release half decent albums of any great note or achievement once Brian checked out of the group...in the mid 70s...until he 'went' solo in 1988.  Dennis had to go it alone.  Carl tried twice.  The group?  It just got to be less and less noteworthy until 2012.

Maybe the harder sound might have ultimately fizzled, faltered and failed.  But I'll guess I would have enjoyed it TONS more.  At least they would have gone down swinging...and trying.  And...It would have saved us from SIP.

By 1969-70...til 15 Biguns spelled the END...I thought that the Beach Boys were pretty cool.  [except for Student Demonstration Time.  I didn't like the way it sounded.  Forced in every conceivable way.]
----------------------------------------------------------------

I know someone...perhaps several will toss 'Love You' onto the pile...but Even though there are some decent tunes there...it's ain't the harder sound THIS thread is dealing with...and...I don't really dig it anyway.  To me it sounds forced...almost as if Brian was trying to come up with something while recovering from some serious problems and issues and the group just kind of pushed him along...because the whole thing had pretty much fallen apart during the previous 'go' at Brian supposedly being 'back'...and "by-cracky" THIS time he was damn well gonna be back whether he wanted to or not.  OR whether he was capable or not.  I mean really???  If Mars had life on it...I might find my wife on it?

Fortunately....OH SO SLOWLY...Brian would get better...bit by bit...particularly after Melinda came along.  Pretty sure SHE didn't come from Mars.

And then there's now.  It ain't the harder sound we're talking about.  BUT...at least Brian's back.  [and, it would seem the only one who ISN'T overly glad about it is one of his cousins. Roll Eyes]
« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 07:29:31 PM by Add Some » Logged

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Ron
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« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2015, 12:28:31 AM »

They did, it's called In Concert.

For sure.  They were actually pretty hard on that album and some of the live stuff they did there for a little while. 

At heart though I don't think the core members of the group would ever be comfortable making straight up Rock music.  Mike?  Nah.  Brian? Nah.  Al? Nah.  Carl?  Maybe... Dennis?  Maybe... 

So they could have made some hard rock stuff but it would have been just as off-base as some of the stuff they actually DID make was.

They were their best when they made the stereotypical music that fit their personalities, the best Mike songs were the bragging car songs, the best Brian songs were the introspective moody songs, the best Al songs were the folkish songs, the best Carl songs were the ones where he sang really pretty, the best Dennis songs were the ones where he moaned about women doing him wrong... with a few exceptions for each of course.

None of them were naturally hard rock guys so the music wouldn't have been their best.  They could have done a decent job of it if they wanted, though, they were always all very talented.
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« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2015, 01:30:32 AM »


Loads of things haven't risen in stature though, and it doesn't mean they are bad...there's still SO much stuff to discover- not even that's rare/expensive, record collecting wise... the 'Bergen White' of my user name made a killer Pet Sounds sounding record that came out on a label that dressed it up like a cheesy lounge record. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JsWvGtJMHA


Wow - nice find! I never heard of this guy but this and another track I just found on YouTube sound killer indeed. Hoping the whole album's on spotify ...
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« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2015, 02:25:57 PM »

I always thought that the Blondie/Ricky era was them experimenting with a harder sound. Okay, it leaned more towards R&B than hard rock, but still counts for me. That era of the band really fascinates me, especially since it was arguably the last time the Beach Boys were progressive before fully embracing the nostalgia tag. I've never quite understood why it all fell apart. Something I have to read up on at some point.
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JasonK
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« Reply #60 on: February 25, 2015, 04:44:40 AM »

I like SDT too, although it took me a while.  I with they had put one or two tracks like this on each album- just flat out rockers.  Just my two cents, but also would have liked to see that harder live sound in the early '70's appear on the records.  Some of their studio recordings are begging for another guitar.  Shoot, if I was the manager at the time, I would have had them re-record the entire Wild Honey album with Blondie and Ricky in the band.  This might not be realistic, smart, or practical, but I would love to hear it.
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« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2015, 06:04:49 AM »

I like SDT too, although it took me a while.  I with they had put one or two tracks like this on each album- just flat out rockers.  Just my two cents, but also would have liked to see that harder live sound in the early '70's appear on the records.  Some of their studio recordings are begging for another guitar.  Shoot, if I was the manager at the time, I would have had them re-record the entire Wild Honey album with Blondie and Ricky in the band.  This might not be realistic, smart, or practical, but I would love to hear it.
Student Demonstration Time is one of those songs that I heard on the radio in 1971!  At the time, I could not believe my ears.  The issues are so complex.  One is that today we thank our service people for their defense service.  Not so, back then.  Only men were drafted and student status got them an unfair pass, in my view.  

People generally blamed the military for what they were pressed into service to do.  The second is that SDT captured the "sonority" of what one would "hear" during a demonstration.  They took musical instruments and brilliantly replicated that very familiar and very harsh "sonority" that students would hear on the street after a college or university building had been evacuated because of a bomb threat or some other event.  

For me, it meant that the BB's "got it" with respect to where many of their fans were.  It meant that they were socially aware, especially because of Carl's CO (Conscientious Objector) status, arrest and other procedures, that dragged out for years.  And, it showed or at least raised awareness about the contentiousness of protest, but also equally raised awareness that it was an fundamental American right to do so, and law enforcement needed to be reminded of that critical principle in our legal system.

  
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 06:07:19 AM by filledeplage » Logged
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« Reply #62 on: February 26, 2015, 12:43:26 AM »

They've done some hard rock stuff mostly on 20/20 and of course Student Demonstration Time , But to me, it really doesn't seem to fit with them and doesn't really work with them, It actually worked for The Beatles i might add but with BB, it just doesn't seem to fit them really.
what worked for the beatles that the BBs didnt do? Can you elaborate??
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« Reply #63 on: February 26, 2015, 03:53:38 AM »

They've done some hard rock stuff mostly on 20/20 and of course Student Demonstration Time , But to me, it really doesn't seem to fit with them and doesn't really work with them, It actually worked for The Beatles i might add but with BB, it just doesn't seem to fit them really.
what worked for the beatles that the BBs didnt do? Can you elaborate??

No he can't, he's banned.
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« Reply #64 on: February 26, 2015, 04:12:32 AM »

They've done some hard rock stuff mostly on 20/20 and of course Student Demonstration Time , But to me, it really doesn't seem to fit with them and doesn't really work with them, It actually worked for The Beatles i might add but with BB, it just doesn't seem to fit them really.
what worked for the beatles that the BBs didnt do? Can you elaborate??

No he can't, he's banned.

He's a banned member? Never thought of that pun before. Cheesy
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« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2015, 06:33:01 AM »

I think it's more difficult to reconcile a harder "rock" sound with the lush vocals and densely complicated instrumental work that Brian created and which came to define the Beach Boys. 

The Beatles always kept that garage band edge, even when they were expanding into psychedelic and baroque sounds  As a result, they were able to continue in a more "rock" vein while still being easily identified as The Beatles. There was a natural progression from where they had been to their later sound, and they still sounded like themselves.  They moved forward without losing their signature sound.

Brian's music became more symphonic as he explored a richer sound. As a result, to go toward a harder sound the band needed to either go back to their garage band roots (which they tried), or completely reinvent themselves (which they also tried). The evolution from Pet Sounds and Smile to harder rock was not going to be as natural because Brian didn't keep the "edge." A complete change of sound, and they weren't really The Beach Boys any more.

It's my theory that this is a big reason The Beach Boys found it difficult to sell their new material to audiences during the Endless Summer popularity phase. They never quite found a way to keep their unique Beach Boys signature while still going forward creatively.  If they had, I think they could have capitalized on the Endless Summer success to become a major force again.
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« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2015, 10:19:39 AM »

Uhh...no. first of all the beatles started as a cover band like the stones. Then they peaked w rubber soul, and the same mnth that revolver was released they ceased as a band to spend their remaining three yrs using the psychedelic era to make the most excessive output of their tenure. The beach boys on the otherhand had a steady progression and were releasing the most integral records at the time. But in america the music buying masses were no longer interested in rock, and for a group w so many hits it was hard to keep up w.
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