Another S**t stirring article in The Independent today !

[SamMcK]

God this topic has become so mind-numbingly boring to read, although I must say Howie made a great post before all of this dull feminist jargon started to take over.

[Gertie J.]

I concur, Sam!

[filledeplage]

This is largely a well informed, primarily male poster/readership, and so, much of what I read, I take with a grain of salt.  This, is different, dissing the wives.  And, a little restraint, and looking at things from the other side of the coin might not hurt.  As a woman, it is interesting to me, that the wives crafted the accord to get to the reunion.  In a sense, they are like ambassadors.  Who doesn't respect that?  

Fille - Your posts are generally filled with great analysis and insight, but I can't see where Howie, in any way, shape, or form, was "dissing the wives".

Thanks - Custom Machine - for your very kind words.  It is just the way it struck me, that I disagreed with Howie.  

This has been a wild week.  And not, a harmonic convergence.  At this point, after all this incredible work, maybe people just need some space.  

Thanks again.  

[Shady]

While you're kissing people filledpage...........

I kid, I kid..

This thread needs a bit of humor 

[Gertie J.]

This is largely a well informed, primarily male poster/readership, and so, much of what I read, I take with a grain of salt.  This, is different, dissing the wives.  And, a little restraint, and looking at things from the other side of the coin might not hurt.  As a woman, it is interesting to me, that the wives crafted the accord to get to the reunion.  In a sense, they are like ambassadors.  Who doesn't respect that?  

Fille - Your posts are generally filled with great analysis and insight, but I can't see where Howie, in any way, shape, or form, was "dissing the wives".

Thanks - Custom Machine - for your very kind words.  It is just the way it struck me, that I disagreed with Howie.  

This has been a wild week.  And not, a harmonic convergence.  At this point, after all this incredible work, maybe people just need some space.  

Thanks again.  

what a nice choice of smiley, fdp 

[filledeplage]

While you're kissing people filledpage...........

I kid, I kid..

This thread needs a bit of humor 

Yes, indeed! 

[SloopJohnB]

This is largely a [...] primarily male poster/readership, and so, much of what I read, I take with a grain of salt.

So, in your opinion, because we're men, we're misogynists by default until proven otherwise ? That's pretty misandric.

[KittyKat]

I didn't think howie was dissing the wives, either.  It was just an observation that they were heavily involved in the negotiations and it could be one more complicating factor.  If Brian and Mike sat down and discussed this among themselves, things could be better, or worse.  It's also possible there are other people involved in this situation such as managers and publicists.  It's more a PR problem than anything else.  I'm also not sure this ever would have gotten so blown up if it weren't for the nature of the British press.

[Cam Mott]

I agree with Howie, that was a great post.

It also agrees with what others have said over the past dozen pages or so: Beyond the whole thing being lifted to a level of both the surreal and the pathetic for no discernible reason, it was handled terribly, and unless I'm mistaken *NO ONE* actually in the band has made an attempt to publicly clarify any part of it. If something goes this far, shouldn't Mike himself or Mike and the rest of the band issue a joint public statement or even make an online video to explain to their fans what is happening?

It's just speculation after assumption, fueled by not a single personal word (as of yet...) to ease the tensions a bit.

It tells me perhaps a case of "any publicity is good publicity" is what we're seeing. Or else it was truly major mistake or misunderstanding that can't be fixed so easily.

The absence of a follow-up statement or comment from an actual band member other than a hired spokesperson seems very sketchy...and worrisome.

I don't see how this statement was mishandled or ill-timed from the bit I've read. Is the full press release available somewhere? I guess it is just a matter of opinion?

I do see how the Boys' reactions to it were mishandled and ill-timed. I don't understand why Brian and Al don't clear up the mess their reactions and repostings have created.

[filledeplage]

This is largely a [...] primarily male poster/readership, and so, much of what I read, I take with a grain of salt.

So, in your opinion, because we're men, we're misogynists by default until proven otherwise ? That's pretty misandric.

Certainly not, unless the Neanderthal tendencies suddenly appear!   (only kidding )

Misandric?  Absolutely not.  

Many who gather here, are enlightened men...

And are not misogynist, either.  

And, if you re-read my quote, I think I said, "well-informed."

That was a compliment, and gender neutral.  

[Cam Mott]

The smartest thing that they could have done is announce that Mike is fulfilling his commitments through the end of the year (while simply but adequately explaining the BRI license agreement once and for all) while listing all the wonderful accomplishments of 2012.

Then on or around Thanksgiving, announce the box set as well as two Staples Center shows for December 30th and December 31st to wrap the 50th anniversary.

It's that easy.
It's beyond a no-brainer.
It's Showbiz 101.
How do these guys not know how to do this thing by now?

Well said.

[guitarfool2002]

The smartest thing that they could have done is announce that Mike is fulfilling his commitments through the end of the year (while simply but adequately explaining the BRI license agreement once and for all) while listing all the wonderful accomplishments of 2012.

Then on or around Thanksgiving, announce the box set as well as two Staples Center shows for December 30th and December 31st to wrap the 50th anniversary.

It's that easy.
It's beyond a no-brainer.
It's Showbiz 101.
How do these guys not know how to do this thing by now?

Well said.

But Cam, he's essentially saying that the way they (all parties involved) handled it was a mistake. So on one hand, you're saying you don't see how it was mishandled answering what I said about it being mishandled earlier, and on the other you're agreeing with Howie when he says it could have been handled better, especially with 50 years of handling the media under their belts.

I'll just say it all could have been handled better, and again there seems to have been a major miscommunication within the band and the lack of an official direct response/clarification from any band members is troubling.

[Pretty Funky]

Then on or around Thanksgiving, announce the box set as well as two Staples Center shows for December 30th and December 31st to wrap the 50th anniversary.

Too late.

http://www.twincities.com/alllistings/ci_21646540/beach-boys-at-mystic-lake-new-years-eve?source=rss

[Jon Stebbins]

Its funny that Howie basically relates very truthfully that Melinda and Jaqui are the bottom line, in charge, calling the shots, wielding the power...and Fildepage somehow takes that as an "undertone of disrespect".

Well, that story is a 180 degree turn from last week.  Last week Mike was the villain. Splashed globally.  Now it is the wives?

The villain is the horrible way this was handled as far as inflaming the public perception that the Beach Boys are firing each other etc... It could have easily been avoided, and the Mike press release, the wording of it, the Beach Boys reluctance to mitigate that by giving an explanation that no one was fired etc... All of that was stupid and ugly. The behind the scenes truth is that Melinda and Jaqui essentially pull the levers of the two integrated organizations that have made this reunion possible. If they were currently operating in harmony as they were throughout most of this reunion, this most likely would not have happened. Seems obvious. You are the first person in this exchange to label them as villains. I'd view them as being in charge, and as having done a fantastic job with all reunion related issues...until now.

Jon - if "villain" is too harsh, then, I apologize, it must be the H&W lyrics.  Since we are in that BB land of discourse.  Just for a second, I'll follow your concept of the evolution of this tour.  And, suppose "the ladies" are to credit for this wonderful series of events, is anyone saying "Thanks" to them?  I'm not hearing it.  Did the ladies "negotiate?"  Saying they are "pulling the levers" of the integrated organizations, is equally strong language on your part.  (If women headed every nation of the world, I doubt we would be at war.  That is a fact.)  So, they should get their proper respect for helping make it happen.

I have gone out of my way to give them respect. I have personally thanked both of them multiple times this summer for this unbelievably great reunion tour. I have thanked them for all of the fans, and told them what they have done means the world to all of us. In fact just moments after one of these thanks, and after mentioning it must have taken a lot of compromise to see this through, they laughed and agreed...and posed for this nice picture.

[Howie Edelson]

READ: Go to sleep Filledeplage.

[Justin]

Jacqueline is one of the most charming ladies you could meet.  She's very personable and incredibly warm.  She's no doubt one of the secret ingredients for this tour working as well as it has. 

[Justin]

To comment on Justin's observation about respecting Mike's feelings, I can only speak for myself - the clock is ticking. Let him continue on his way and perform some quick and dirty little shows at the Poughkeepsie community theater, but come January I'll be very interested to see what happens next.

If, and it's a very big if, Mike's appreciation of a down-scaled hit machine is the norm, then he's fully deserving of the scorn and ridicule of the fan base. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Spock said that, and I agree. Till then, let him play his dinky shows and let Bruce get the crowd up on their feet.

That's my view.  Just simply let him do his thing and we'll just see what 2013 brings. If Mike feels he needs a break and wants to "reward" himself with a few of his own shows---that's fine with me.  If/when they reunite again, it will be all over the internet, hyped to death all over again and all of this stuff won't matter anymore.

You know what's kind of a shock to me...that they didn't have an end game for this whole thing.  Or perhaps, given what is sometimes implied about lines of communication in the band, I shouldn't be.  But it just seems like something that should have been discussed and gamed out and some kind of unified statement put out there that had a nod to everyone's desires (including the fans') but made a clear statement about what was going to happen next.

I can certainly imagine a few (very plausible, though I have no inside knowledge) scenarios why that didn't happen.  But I guess it's just surprising, becuase that's what bands on that level supposedly do.  Have a business meeting, figure out the plan, let tempers be heard, reach a decision, and the publicist sorts it out.  Seems like things just moved along parallel lines and (pure speculation here) Mike wanted to get out in front of an evolving situation that he might not be able to control and (not for the first time) made himself look bad in the process.

Given the different people and centers of power involved, it's amazing it held together as long as it has.  There's something poetic in a way about it having this kind of period on it, even though there's a bitter aftertaste to it.  It was a really impressive achievement.

Indeed. Definitely a few possible scenarios, and some that may have been more complicated than meets the eye.


I'll throw a [potentially worthless] possibility out there...and my apologies if any of this has already been more succinctly stated:


That is, even though the tour may have originally been agreed upon by all parties as a finite plan with a definite end game, and possibly agreed upon by a certain member *only* with those conditions firmly in place (ML), I can't help but wonder if another certain member went into this whole shebang hoping and wishing he could change that game plan all along, despite what he may have openly agreed to (AJ). All the while hoping that, yet, another (obviously key and fragile) member might find out he didn't want the tour to be so finite after all, and once he found himself actually enjoying everything again (BW). In return, giving member number two the leverage he hoped for all along to change the ultimate outcome (AJ again). Hence, the maneuvering and power plays we're seeing right now in order to reconcile all these agendas, and the resulting disarray that has occurred. In a nutshell, the end game might only be muddled because some members' motives or intents with the tour reunion may not have been perfectly "pure" or definite to begin with, while another's may have been as clear as a bell.


Thus, I'm not sure that any initial communication may have prevented or resolved this with so many fuzzy variables in play. Though, at the same time, I do have to wonder what kind of verbal evolution might have occurred, if any, while the tour was taking place? As Al hinted in the RS interview, communication and camaraderie weren't exactly what he had hoped for at that point.


(**The above scenario -- pure speculation on my part of course**)


Look, it's no secret that Al has wanted to get the "real" Beach Boys back together for some time. At one point he called it his dream. Can any fan blame him? He's also the one major player with probably the most to win or lose at this point (And I say this with the utmost respect for Al. He's unquestionably my favorite vocalist on that current BBs stage, and he got to sing what is, arguably, the band's first masterpiece-of-a-track in decades. Maybe their last.). When he joined up with Brian's tour on his own dime, I'd reckon it wasn't just to exchange pleasantries -- musical or otherwise. I'd also reckon that Al realizes how difficult it might be to put it all back together, again, if everyone parts ways at this point. Especially in the always complicated world that involves Brian. Thus, I'm not really surprised at what's happening right now. I'm also not surprised that Brian would be the wild card in all of this, or that Mike would be the one with his own unwavering plan. I also think early 2013 will probably be the tipping point where we see whether everything can truly be reconciled. Once those upcoming dates are satisfied by Mike and Bruce (and we also see whether those dates or personal relationships suffered any fallout from what's currently happening), I think we'll know where everyone's true motives and future intentions lie. At that point, there will be no place to hide in this card game. Let's just hope that a certain fragile, and noted wild card member is still interested in playing along. Without him, all this is academic.


Personally...I wouldn't mind more new music. I'll always want more new music from the unit as a complete whole. Though, if it doesn't happen, I really can't complain in light of what we got this year. For me, "Summer's Gone" would be the perfect capper to an amazing musical story.

Most of us have known about these upcoming concerts for a while. Bruce Johnston gleefully told anybody who would listen as much. A lot of us have also known that this tour happened solely at the mercy of Melinda Wilson and Jackie Love and that come the final stretch of dates how THAT relationship played out would determine the future of the Beach Boys. Regardless of whether the Mike band had a bunch of dates booked, the "this tour had a specific end date" excuse really is bulls*** -- because EVERYONE IN AND AROUND THE TOUR knew that if the powers that if be said it's going to continue, it would. The fact than none of this "specific end date" or “our final tour” talk was brought up during their global round of recent interviews proves that either this was being kept away from the general public because it would sully the celebratory aspects of the reunion -- or no one was absolutely sure what was going to go down. And trust me – no one was sure. The prevailing attitude was “let’s just get through this tour.” Would Mike keep the side band for corporate dates and/or "off season shows" -- a lot of things were kept purposely ambiguous. I honestly believe that things are still up in the air about the future of the band. I personally believe there will be some type of middle ground met. I think we’re all in agreement that it could've been done more professionally and with far more class.

When I last spoke at length to Mike in late June, I pressed him hard about what 2013 would hold in store for the band and he made it seem that after the tour the principles would regroup to record at some point -- preferably on songs he and Brian co-wrote -- and discuss future dates. He stressed that the show was more expensive than he would have liked and that he actually regretted having to only play large venues. He had ample chances to say to me that it was permanently going back to the way it was before and he did not. He loved everything about the 50th tour from the song selection to his bandmates' performances -- but (my words) he resented having to lose money paying for such a big machine. Apart from that, he gave me ZERO INDICATION that this was a finite thing. Mike telling the audience at the CalSaga Grammy performance that the group would be opening for the Beach Boys next summer certainly seemed to indicate that the co-founders would be hitting the road again. (Two members of CalSaga told me that the announcement was actually news to them.)

While talking about the tour -- and specifically the "50 Big Ones Productions" headed by Joe Thomas -- Mike gushed that no one else could have pulled this thing together. When I asked him if BRI has ever thought of hiring someone "in house" to run operations like that year-round, he admitted they never have considered it. I offered up former manager Jerry Schilling's name.

The press release issued just prior to the Grammy show was needed to explain the situation before fans started buying tickets to shows and walk out pissed at seeing "imposters." It really wasn’t the d*ck move that the press are labeling it – but the timing was both comically and typically horrible. The fact that it was bereft of any emotion, class, good will, or respect for the co-founders is why this mess happened in the first place. It was ugly and it reeked of "the bottom line." And the thing that's so dispiriting about this is that this thing was truly magnificent. It really was. It rose to every occasion. The rock press coverage was astounding. For a band with zero presence on classic rock radio, they were covered as much -- if not more -- than McCartney and The Who's tours. A hit album and massive, massive exposure. They went from Frankie Valli to Mick Jagger OVERNIGHT. Even Bruce Johnston calling Barrack Obama an as shole couldn't cause a dent in the power of this reunion. But having "Mike Love Fires Brian Wilson" being one of the top tweets and trends online coupled with the Eagles calling Mike out for being an idiot, is press so bad I doubt the brand can fully recover. All that positivity, all that good will GONE in a day. Even the cynics are speechless. What a stupid avoidable mess.

Some fine posts there--well done. 

[Cam Mott]

The smartest thing that they could have done is announce that Mike is fulfilling his commitments through the end of the year (while simply but adequately explaining the BRI license agreement once and for all) while listing all the wonderful accomplishments of 2012.

Then on or around Thanksgiving, announce the box set as well as two Staples Center shows for December 30th and December 31st to wrap the 50th anniversary.

It's that easy.
It's beyond a no-brainer.
It's Showbiz 101.
How do these guys not know how to do this thing by now?

Well said.

But Cam, he's essentially saying that the way they (all parties involved) handled it was a mistake. So on one hand, you're saying you don't see how it was mishandled answering what I said about it being mishandled earlier, and on the other you're agreeing with Howie when he says it could have been handled better, especially with 50 years of handling the media under their belts.

I'll just say it all could have been handled better, and again there seems to have been a major miscommunication within the band and the lack of an official direct response/clarification from any band members is troubling.

Well, it is kind of complicated. I think Howie earlier in another post expressed his opinion that he thought Mike's timing was off. I don't see that, the timing was not the problem and neither was the statement.

Here I do agree with Howie that it would have been better to have a comprehensive statement [regardless of the timing imo] which would have avoided the only problem which was the other Boys' separate reactions and the press hype of their reactions. The content of Mike's statement was necessary and true and the timing of such a statement was timely for its intent. Does that make sense?

[guitarfool2002]

The smartest thing that they could have done is announce that Mike is fulfilling his commitments through the end of the year (while simply but adequately explaining the BRI license agreement once and for all) while listing all the wonderful accomplishments of 2012.

Then on or around Thanksgiving, announce the box set as well as two Staples Center shows for December 30th and December 31st to wrap the 50th anniversary.

It's that easy.
It's beyond a no-brainer.
It's Showbiz 101.
How do these guys not know how to do this thing by now?

Well said.

But Cam, he's essentially saying that the way they (all parties involved) handled it was a mistake. So on one hand, you're saying you don't see how it was mishandled answering what I said about it being mishandled earlier, and on the other you're agreeing with Howie when he says it could have been handled better, especially with 50 years of handling the media under their belts.

I'll just say it all could have been handled better, and again there seems to have been a major miscommunication within the band and the lack of an official direct response/clarification from any band members is troubling.

Well, it is kind of complicated. I think Howie earlier in another post expressed his opinion that he thought Mike's timing was off. I don't see that, the timing was not the problem and neither was the statement.

Here I do agree with Howie that it would have been better to have a comprehensive statement [regardless of the timing imo] which would have avoided the only problem which was the other Boys' separate reactions and the press hype of their reactions. The content of Mike's statement was necessary and true and the timing of such a statement was timely for its intent. Does that make sense?

To a point it does, to a small degree it does, but I can't help but think if it was handled better, or more competently, and perhaps if the timing had been a little more appropriate, I doubt we'd see even a fraction of the sh*t-storm which happened after the comments were made and reported. If you say it right, make it concise, and yes...make it more universal and less self-centered (ducks for cover...), you're less likely to have those words misinterpreted in any way.

Look at a few posts in this thread - suggestions were offered for a concise, respectful press statement which could have left no room for mistakes or misinterpreted meanings.

And I do have a problem with the timing of it - why not wait until a week later? Points:

- Was it that big of a rush to promote the new set of shows that he had to say it last week when the media attention was at its strongest since it was the "Farewell Show" coming up?

- If you bask in the moment of a successful tour, good press, happy fans, and a general feeling of goodwill among fans and concertgoers, why not bask in THAT moment of harmony, ride it out, and when everyone gets back to the States and goes their own way, start doing press about your concerts coming up. It's a thing with me about enjoying a great moment and living it up in that moment.

Seriously, what the heck was the rush to get in a few words about upcoming shows when everyone was jazzed about the finale to a great reunion tour and a great comeback album?

Some would say it was a ham-fisted attempt at self-promotion or bandwagon-jumping that backfired. If he had waited another week or even another few days, would we have seen the backlash? Most likely not.

[bgas]

When I last spoke at length to Mike in late June, .....   -- but (my words) he resented having to lose money paying for such a big machine.

question(s):  is this meant to imply that the BBs lost $$ on this tour? or:
 that Mike felt he personally wasn't making as much $$?  or:
Mike felt the big machine cost more than it was worth to the process?  or??

[Wirestone]

They didn't lose money. Mike's point, I think, is that they could have gotten the same-sized audiences with a far smaller band and fewer backstage perks. There was also speculation that -- on top of the costs just mentioned -- having to split the money with other BBs as full participants meant Mike was making less on this tour than he might otherwise, even with the bigger venues.

[guitarfool2002]

Just a guess: Logistics and finances? Overhead? It might not be possible to make enough of a profit in returns (ticket sales, merch sales, whatever else, etc) from those concerts already booked at smaller venues in order to pay for the operational stuff needed to move all those additional musicians, support staff, equipment, stage sets, tour buses and semi trucks, etc. from venue to venue. If Mike's smaller touring band books smaller venues, they can still call it profitable with the smaller band. If they would need to sell, say, 10,000 seats to meet the budget, and the venue only holds 5,000 people, it's a loss.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

They didn't lose money. Mike's point, I think, is that they could have gotten the same-sized audiences with a far smaller band and fewer backstage perks. There was also speculation that -- on top of the costs just mentioned -- having to split the money with other BBs as full participants meant Mike was making less on this tour than he might otherwise, even with the bigger venues.

I was backstage, in the dressing rooms in Eugene.  If you call a few snacks and bottles of water and juice perks; yeah, it was lavish! 

I was amazed at how little there was.

[Pretty Funky]

Sometimes you have to look at the big picture. Sure, he may have made less for a gig but standing with the band for a few M&G pictures must have topped that loss up some. Throw in money for the new album and all the reissues PLUS whatever live album/ DVD we have upcoming and Mike will have done ok this year.

[Wirestone]

In terms of backstage perks I meant stuff like Brian's separate tour bus and accommodations for all the families who traveled with the principals ...