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Poll
Question: Which Do You Prefer?
Carl & The Passions: "So Tough" - 20 (20%)
Holland - 80 (80%)
Total Voters: 95

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Author Topic: Twofer polls #10: Carl & The Passions vs Holland  (Read 7954 times)
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« on: September 17, 2012, 10:09:41 AM »

Holland for me. The album where the Carl helmed band really delivered a cohesive lp and blueprint for a 70s relevant Beach Boys. So sad they couldn't build on this on subsequent albums. I think the seeds were there in C&TP too, but it's too patchy, let down particularly by the dirgey Dennis numbers.

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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2012, 10:16:29 AM »

I'm probably in the minority, but I actually prefer So Tough, but Holland itself is a great album too. I think it's because of it's uniqueness in the catalogue I treasure it, and allows me to trick my non-beach boys liking friends into enjoying something!
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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2012, 10:20:52 AM »

Holland by leaps and bounds and I'LL EXPLAIN FURTHER LATER, OKAY.
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« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2012, 10:23:30 AM »

I think it's because of it's uniqueness in the catalogue I treasure it, and allows me to trick my non-beach boys liking friends into enjoying something!

ASSHOLES.
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« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2012, 10:23:53 AM »

Holland all the way. I love C&TP apart from Make It Good which is awful. They had better stuff in the can at this point.
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« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2012, 10:46:30 AM »

Holland. CATP is just too patchy.

There is a striking small element in the Holland work, for me; in fact it is an ever so tiny snippet on the Pied Piper EP. It lasts probably 5 to 10 seconds, it's the 'Through The Misty Night' vocal tapestry. For nigh on 40 years now, I am plagued, nay tortured, by its potential. I always think: this, dear Boys, could have been the way towards gorgeous melodic pop structures in your collective adulthood.

That was not meant to be. Not that I don't like Love You, mind, but well... a man can dream...
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« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2012, 10:50:23 AM »

Holland for obvious reasons. CATP a huge letdown at the time.
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« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2012, 11:22:19 AM »

While I do realize that 'Holland' sounds more like a group effort and is a step up when it comes to that, I simply enjoy the songs on 'Carl and The Passions' more. 'You Need A Mass Of Help', 'Cuddle Up' and 'All This Is That' are among my very favourite Beach Boys songs; 'Marcella', 'He Came Down' and 'Here She Comes' are good songs and 'Make It Good' along with 'Hold On, Dear Brother' would rank somewhere in the decent territory.
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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2012, 11:26:51 AM »

Holland.  CATP has three great songs and some decent ones. Holland is just great.
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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2012, 11:32:00 AM »

Holland. CATP is just too patchy.

There is a striking small element in the Holland work, for me; in fact it is an ever so tiny snippet on the Pied Piper EP. It lasts probably 5 to 10 seconds, it's the 'Through The Misty Night' vocal tapestry. For nigh on 40 years now, I am plagued, nay tortured, by its potential. I always think: this, dear Boys, could have been the way towards gorgeous melodic pop structures in your collective adulthood.

That was not meant to be. Not that I don't like Love You, mind, but well... a man can dream...

All bits of music on the Mount Vernon And Fairway EP are totally, totally brilliant. Like, Smile fragments level of brilliant. I'd like to have seen them developed into full songs, but it was seemingly beyond Brian to develop them further at that point - I have to imagine that's partially why he opted to develop them in the context of the fairy tale thing. The results of him further developing "Better Get Back In Bed", "Lazy Lizzie", was pretty dreadful, although that was a couple years later. Still, maybe it was for the best.

The "Radio King Dom" part you speak of is indeed probably the best fragment among them, although like I said, I think they're all great.
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« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2012, 11:47:39 AM »

Holland all the way. I love C&TP apart from Make It Good which is awful. They had better stuff in the can at this point.

I agree that Holland is by far the better album - one of the greatest (and certainly one of the most under-rated) of their career! - however you've so, so very wrong re Make It Good. It's an absolute gem!
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« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2012, 11:56:32 AM »

Holland. CATP is just too patchy.

There is a striking small element in the Holland work, for me; in fact it is an ever so tiny snippet on the Pied Piper EP. It lasts probably 5 to 10 seconds, it's the 'Through The Misty Night' vocal tapestry. For nigh on 40 years now, I am plagued, nay tortured, by its potential. I always think: this, dear Boys, could have been the way towards gorgeous melodic pop structures in your collective adulthood.

That was not meant to be. Not that I don't like Love You, mind, but well... a man can dream...

All bits of music on the Mount Vernon And Fairway EP are totally, totally brilliant. Like, Smile fragments level of brilliant. I'd like to have seen them developed into full songs, but it was seemingly beyond Brian to develop them further at that point - I have to imagine that's partially why he opted to develop them in the context of the fairy tale thing. The results of him further developing "Better Get Back In Bed", "Lazy Lizzie", was pretty dreadful, although that was a couple years later. Still, maybe it was for the best.

The "Radio King Dom" part you speak of is indeed probably the best fragment among them, although like I said, I think they're all great.

In complete agreement. Got to admit, i've been a little unsure of some of your posts in the past, but reading this i thought: Now this guy likes the good stuff! From the very first listen i loved Mt Vernon, and yes the musical segments are all utterly terrific. They leave you wanting more, which is a good thing! The Beach Boys, unlike so many other more self-indulgent groups, almost always knew that less was more.
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« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2012, 12:28:34 PM »

Holland. CATP is just too patchy.

There is a striking small element in the Holland work, for me; in fact it is an ever so tiny snippet on the Pied Piper EP. It lasts probably 5 to 10 seconds, it's the 'Through The Misty Night' vocal tapestry. For nigh on 40 years now, I am plagued, nay tortured, by its potential. I always think: this, dear Boys, could have been the way towards gorgeous melodic pop structures in your collective adulthood.

That was not meant to be. Not that I don't like Love You, mind, but well... a man can dream...

All bits of music on the Mount Vernon And Fairway EP are totally, totally brilliant. Like, Smile fragments level of brilliant. I'd like to have seen them developed into full songs, but it was seemingly beyond Brian to develop them further at that point - I have to imagine that's partially why he opted to develop them in the context of the fairy tale thing. The results of him further developing "Better Get Back In Bed", "Lazy Lizzie", was pretty dreadful, although that was a couple years later. Still, maybe it was for the best.

The "Radio King Dom" part you speak of is indeed probably the best fragment among them, although like I said, I think they're all great.

Nice call, cheers for that!
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« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2012, 01:46:33 PM »

Carl and the Passions all the way. It's up there with Love You and Sunflower as my favourite, and make it good is my favourite track on it.

I think the consistency appeals to me. There isn't a 'student demonstration time' or 'beaks of eagles' or even 'tears in the morning'. Everyone turns out great material, and it flows together really well. Holland is great, but lacks both a Dennis vocal and is kind of Lo-fi, soundwise. Whether you like them or not, the recordings of the two Dennis numbers of CandTP are spectacularly ambitious productions. Can't think of one track recorded after them that was so progressive and such an attempt at stretching out.
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« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2012, 02:51:19 PM »

I accidentally voted for Carl & The Passions, because I'm a moron. I meant to vote Holland though. So take away one from Teh Passions and give one to Holland. Makin' it gently.....
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« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2012, 03:00:26 PM »

I love em both but So Tough might as well have been titled Too Short!
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« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2012, 04:08:31 PM »

Holland all the way. I love C&TP apart from Make It Good which is awful. They had better stuff in the can at this point.

I agree that Holland is by far the better album - one of the greatest (and certainly one of the most under-rated) of their career! - however you've so, so very wrong re Make It Good. It's an absolute gem!

Each to his own I guess but I think it's the worst song Dennis ever made.
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« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2012, 04:27:05 PM »

Holland all the way. I love C&TP apart from Make It Good which is awful. They had better stuff in the can at this point.

I agree that Holland is by far the better album - one of the greatest (and certainly one of the most under-rated) of their career! - however you've so, so very wrong re Make It Good. It's an absolute gem!

Each to his own I guess but I think it's the worst song Dennis ever made.

Yep! You indicated that already!

Not really a song though, is it. More of a magical two minute tone poem. I love that about it- just does what it came to do and then departs, without any concessions to 'normal' song structure, or any pointless repetition.

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« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2012, 07:13:23 PM »

Holland of the two, tho I don't love it. Passions would win for Dennis's two incredible tracks, but the Ricky and Blondie and Maharishi Mushhead Yogi Bear crap weighs it down too much.
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« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2012, 07:16:48 PM »

Holland of the two, tho I don't love it. Passions would win for Dennis's two incredible tracks, but the Ricky and Blondie and Maharishi Mushhead Yogi Bear crap weighs it down too much.

*will cry tears of butter if the latter refers to "All This Is That"*
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« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2012, 07:24:21 PM »

Holland of the two, tho I don't love it. Passions would win for Dennis's two incredible tracks, but the Ricky and Blondie and Maharishi Mushhead Yogi Bear crap weighs it down too much.

*will cry tears of butter if the latter refers to "All This Is That"*

I don't wish to shove my iconoclastic opinions down anyone's throat. But, I'm the only hardcore BB fan that I know of that can't stand that song. I didn't like that Jai Guru Dev stuff when The Beatles did it, and I don't dig the Boys doing it either. And it always chafes me when rich rock stars preach about the relativism of reality. Hey Mike and Al, my old busted-out Honda is relative to your sailboat, let's trade!
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« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2012, 09:18:37 PM »

Definitely Holland.  Passions has some good songs but it sounded like they were almost trying too hard not to sound like themselves.  And while I think they've written good songs too, it's the Chaplin/Fataar numbers in particular that just bring the album down.  They're not bad songs but they're not particularly memorable either and they go on for too long.  And the strength of the opening track and Marcella, both written by Brian, shows how much they depended on him.  Of course, I also love All This is That and I think Cuddle Up is very nice too but there was just something off.

Holland was the band both trying to update their sound while simultaneously still being able to sound like the Beach Boys.  Again, the bookending Brian tracks, Sail On Sailor and Funky Pretty set the bar high but there are some real gems from the other guys.  The California Saga is a lot of fun and had a rare ambition from Al and Mike, the song California alone is definitely a favorite.  The Trader is one of Carl's best compositions and Leaving This Town showed Blondie and Ricky fitting in much better than they did on the previous album.

But then there's Mt. Vernon and Fairway.  Should this be considered a separate work from Holland?  I'll mention it anyways.  Beautiful music, that's for sure.  The "Fairy Tale Music" from the Good Vibrations box set makes it absolutely sublime.  The story and the narration on the other hand falls completely flat.  And knowing Brian's mental state at the time, his "performance" as the Pied Piper is extremely hard to listen to.  And Jack Rieley was not the right voice to finish the job either.  His singing on Day in the Life of a Tree sort of worked but his narration here just sounds way too awkward.  And the story itself?  Well, it's childish and cryptic and as an admirer of Brian's eccentric side, I can appreciate it but it doesn't warrant repeated listenings.  But whoever had the idea to edit it into "Fairy Tale Music" gets big points because that not only made it for better listening, it's also really cool.
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« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2012, 09:29:04 PM »

Had Smile had been released, a full length, Mt Vernon and Fairway like production pulled off with a decent narrator and song developed properly would have been a pretty cool/logical evolutionary step for The Beach Boys to take imo. I can just imagine Brian inspired to do it after witnessing the Moog showing off at Monterey  3D
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« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2012, 11:21:11 PM »

I don't think there's a single bad song on Carl & the Passions, but the highs are higher on Holland.
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« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2012, 12:10:02 AM »

Definitely Holland.  Passions has some good songs but it sounded like they were almost trying too hard not to sound like themselves.  And while I think they've written good songs too, it's the Chaplin/Fataar numbers in particular that just bring the album down.  They're not bad songs but they're not particularly memorable either and they go on for too long.  And the strength of the opening track and Marcella, both written by Brian, shows how much they depended on him.  Of course, I also love All This is That and I think Cuddle Up is very nice too but there was just something off.

Holland was the band both trying to update their sound while simultaneously still being able to sound like the Beach Boys.  Again, the bookending Brian tracks, Sail On Sailor and Funky Pretty set the bar high but there are some real gems from the other guys.  The California Saga is a lot of fun and had a rare ambition from Al and Mike, the song California alone is definitely a favorite.  The Trader is one of Carl's best compositions and Leaving This Town showed Blondie and Ricky fitting in much better than they did on the previous album.

But then there's Mt. Vernon and Fairway.  Should this be considered a separate work from Holland?  I'll mention it anyways.  Beautiful music, that's for sure.  The "Fairy Tale Music" from the Good Vibrations box set makes it absolutely sublime.  The story and the narration on the other hand falls completely flat.  And knowing Brian's mental state at the time, his "performance" as the Pied Piper is extremely hard to listen to.  And Jack Rieley was not the right voice to finish the job either.  His singing on Day in the Life of a Tree sort of worked but his narration here just sounds way too awkward.  And the story itself?  Well, it's childish and cryptic and as an admirer of Brian's eccentric side, I can appreciate it but it doesn't warrant repeated listenings.  But whoever had the idea to edit it into "Fairy Tale Music" gets big points because that not only made it for better listening, it's also really cool.

I don't think My Vernon should be considered a seperate work to Holland, it was packaged and released with Holland, it's part of the album - personally i'd have liked to have seen it as the centrepiece of Holland, maybe kicking off side 2, after Trader and before Leaving This Town. It's a genuine masterpiece! (Who is it writes the Holland 2-fer sleeve notes? I seem to recall he dismisses Mt Vernon with a ''the best you can say about it is that it's weird''. Total rubbish!)
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