Sunset Sound sessions ?

[guitarfool2002]

From what I gathered Sunset didn't get 8-track until 1967, but even that is sketchy because they like the other independent studios were building and using custom and customized setups as a general rule. So just because they didn't order something stock doesn't mean they didn't have it as an in-house custom thing, which makes dating certain things impossible.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

From what I gathered Sunset didn't get 8-track until 1967, but even that is sketchy because they like the other independent studios were building and using custom and customized setups as a general rule. So just because they didn't order something stock doesn't mean they didn't have it as an in-house custom thing, which makes dating certain things impossible.

Nice to see those photos again.  I love that they only seem to have had one compressor in the control room.  I wonder if the mono out just went through there.  But what a simple set up.  The board, with the pres obviously racked up somewhere else, is really elegant.

[DonnyL]

those look like pretty early photos, like '64 or prior? looks like just a 2-track Ampex tube machine in the control room. funny they were using 'Audiotape' brand tapes though. Those tapes actually sound really good but I think they were kind of a budget competitor to Scotch/3M.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Could be from around the era of this photo, which of course we can very accurately date:



Can somebody dig up a photo of the control room during a Doors session or something, to see a later view?

[guitarfool2002]

Bruce Botnick at the board from studio 1, 1967, at the time The Doors would have been recording there.

[guitarfool2002]

In the "Sound On Sound" article, Botnick goes into some great details about that custom board and all the gear - apparently the custom design of that control room included a patching system where you could patch into numerous devices, preamps, compressors, etc from anywhere in there.

That is the custom board from Sunset in the photos, I imagine it's the very one Brian and the Doors and others used.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

In the "Sound On Sound" article, Botnick goes into some great details about that custom board and all the gear - apparently the custom design of that control room included a patching system where you could patch into numerous devices, preamps, compressors, etc from anywhere in there.

That is the custom board from Sunset in the photos, I imagine it's the very one Brian and the Doors and others used.

Remarkably stable set-up over the years.  How do you guys think they used the one compressor/limiter?

I really love how patchable the studios were.  You can see at CBS, in particular, all the patch bays, and this was before thousands of channel inputs and effects and stuff.  You could hack in almost anywhere.  Apparently the Western guys even liked to bypass the Putnam preamps for certain applications, and just go right into the tape machine.  And of course you'd have chambers, EMT plates, and Spring reverbs right there too.  Ah, to have been alive then.

[DonnyL]

How do you guys think they used the one compressor/limiter?

I would guess vocals and mono mixes/bounces? barely touching the needle, if at all. I think in the U.S. throughout most of the '60s (with some exceptions), compressors were considered a necessary evil, and using primarily in vinyl mastering, or to keep tape hiss down when bouncing from deck to deck. of course, there are always exceptions. And I think by '67, they started using it more as an effect.

[guitarfool2002]

Botnick does mention how he got Robbie Kreiger's awesome guitar tone by overloading the tube preamps (Geoff Emerick-Revolution...same technique for Lennon), I wondered if they at least used something at some stage in the recording process to make that tube distortion and natural compression from that overloading even more creamy and sustained (and controllable) by sending it through an LA-2A or something similar, even if not for anything but to even it out in the mix.

Is it just my ears or is there hardly any noticeable outboard compression heard on the first two Doors albums? Maybe I'm just not remembering, it's been awhile since listening to all of the songs.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

How do you guys think they used the one compressor/limiter?

I would guess vocals and mono mixes/bounces? barely touching the needle, if at all. I think in the U.S. throughout most of the '60s (with some exceptions), compressors were considered a necessary evil, and using primarily in vinyl mastering, or to keep tape hiss down when bouncing from deck to deck. of course, there are always exceptions. And I think by '67, they started using it more as an effect.

It's just funny that it's the only thing up on the desk there, when I'm sure they had a handful of other things racked somewhere.  So obviously it was used so much that they wanted it right there.  I remember an interview with somebody, or maybe it was Linett telling me, that Gold Star only owned one limiter up through most of the 60s and it was only used at the mastering stage.  Apparently most engineers, in LA at least, would get offended if told to use a compressor, because they believed in their ability to ride the faders.  So I agree that the outboard compressor is not the sound of early mid-sixties LA records.

[DonnyL]

Botnick does mention how he got Robbie Kreiger's awesome guitar tone by overloading the tube preamps (Geoff Emerick-Revolution...same technique for Lennon), I wondered if they at least used something at some stage in the recording process to make that tube distortion and natural compression from that overloading even more creamy and sustained (and controllable) by sending it through an LA-2A or something similar, even if not for anything but to even it out in the mix.

Is it just my ears or is there hardly any noticeable outboard compression heard on the first two Doors albums? Maybe I'm just not remembering, it's been awhile since listening to all of the songs.

I think the first one sounds a little compressed, but 'Strange Days' is super clean ... but I think it's more to do with solid state sound. I think the board was solid state by that time, and the tape deck was as well (compared to the first album).

[guitarfool2002]

Botnick does mention how he got Robbie Kreiger's awesome guitar tone by overloading the tube preamps (Geoff Emerick-Revolution...same technique for Lennon), I wondered if they at least used something at some stage in the recording process to make that tube distortion and natural compression from that overloading even more creamy and sustained (and controllable) by sending it through an LA-2A or something similar, even if not for anything but to even it out in the mix.

Is it just my ears or is there hardly any noticeable outboard compression heard on the first two Doors albums? Maybe I'm just not remembering, it's been awhile since listening to all of the songs.

I think the first one sounds a little compressed, but 'Strange Days' is super clean ... but I think it's more to do with solid state sound. I think the board was solid state by that time, and the tape deck was as well (compared to the first album).

The way Botnick describes Strange Days it seemed most of what they used was still tube, including that board and preamps. The 8-track tape deck was one of Wally Heider's 3M rentals! 

I was listening to When The Music's Over just now...that track is amazing. Robbie's fuzzed out guitar sounds like one of the best fuzztones you'll ever hear. if Botnick did that by overloading preamps instead of Robbie using a fuzz pedal, that's incredible. Sidetrack: Those first two Doors albums are essential, and great. Great to revisit 'em every so often.

[DonnyL]

Botnick does mention how he got Robbie Kreiger's awesome guitar tone by overloading the tube preamps (Geoff Emerick-Revolution...same technique for Lennon), I wondered if they at least used something at some stage in the recording process to make that tube distortion and natural compression from that overloading even more creamy and sustained (and controllable) by sending it through an LA-2A or something similar, even if not for anything but to even it out in the mix.

Is it just my ears or is there hardly any noticeable outboard compression heard on the first two Doors albums? Maybe I'm just not remembering, it's been awhile since listening to all of the songs.

I think the first one sounds a little compressed, but 'Strange Days' is super clean ... but I think it's more to do with solid state sound. I think the board was solid state by that time, and the tape deck was as well (compared to the first album).

The way Botnick describes Strange Days it seemed most of what they used was still tube, including that board and preamps. The 8-track tape deck was one of Wally Heider's 3M rentals!  

I was listening to When The Music's Over just now...that track is amazing. Robbie's fuzzed out guitar sounds like one of the best fuzztones you'll ever hear. if Botnick did that by overloading preamps instead of Robbie using a fuzz pedal, that's incredible. Sidetrack: Those first two Doors albums are essential, and great. Great to revisit 'em every so often.

yeh, i'm probably confusing something there ... i guess the board was still tube. I believe I'm mixing it up with 'Waiting for the Sun' ... don't know a whole lot about the Doors stuff. but yeh they're kind of underrated in some ways. much prefer them to the Beatles or Stones ... very California sound.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

I was shown the "out of commission" room for all the old equipment, he told me (probably only off the top of his head) that most of the 4 track machines were out by '68. I believe studio 3 was still 4 track and studio 2 was upgraded in late '67

[c-man]

The Beach Boys' stuff cut at Sunset in '66 ("Here Today", "Good Vibrations") was very definitely four-track.

[DonnyL]

The Beach Boys' stuff cut at Sunset in '66 ("Here Today", "Good Vibrations") was very definitely four-track.

thanks ... once again, your presence here continues to be an essential resource !

[Stephen W. Desper]

Great info!

One thing stuck out...all of those sessions in 1969, is there a reason why after Brian's home studio was up and running at full capacity, that they'd decide to book time at a commercial studio instead, and do it that often as it looks from the timeline? I'm going on information that around the time of "Friends", Brian's home studio was complete and fully "stocked" enough to compete with some commercial studios...so why book elsewhere if they got what they wanted (finally) at the house?

COMMENT:

There are several reasons for outside bookings.

1.  The outside studio may have been chosen for sound reasons or for size. Get a good horn sound at Sunset #3 and you go back. A recording session involving musicians is very expensive. If you pay $5,000 for the horn track to be recorded onto your 8-track or 4-track you want the best sound for your production as you can get. Strings were usually recorded at Capital or A&M. Most strings on Sunflower were done at one session at A&M.  Four songs in the one session. But that was with a good size string section of 18 players. We didn't have that many headphones at the house studio . . . or the room . . . or the junction boxes . . . etc. Other reasons might be to book Capital and capture the reverberation from chamber #3 on the multi-track.

2.  One member of the group may have the house studio tied up for several days doing a mixdown, including if no one is in the studio. A strip of tape is placed across all the sliders, meaning the console is on hold. No automation, no MIDI. So while the mixdown is progressing, another member of the group may wish to move forward on their production by scheduling an outside session for sweetening, i.e. adding strings, horns, or percussion. I also attended these outside sessions in most cases. The paperwork may list the engineer who worked at that studio as the session engineer. Not to take away any credit, but I ran those sessions with the assistance of the house engineer. That was how it worked for most major bands. The guest engineer sits at the board and if they need help, the house engineer is there. He is not a tech. He is a mixer. It's all very professional -- no egos or one-up-manship.

3.  Much of the equipment used in the house studio was also used for extended periods as a touring system. All the consoles, power amps, and microphones were gone from the house, rendering the studio nonfictional. It takes several days to make the transition from functioning studio to concert system packed and ready to entertain thousands. The same transition back from the road system to the studio system would take several days or longer if repairs are needed. While we were out on tour, I know Brian would book an outside session just to try out ideas (which he would otherwise tryout at home). Then too a producer (one of the group members) may be "hot to record." Waiting several days for the studio to get up and running may be too long. The group member may feel he could loose his musical idea and needs to get to something recorded. He books an outside session. That tape may then continue to be worked on after the house studio is functional.

I hope this clarifies this issue for you.

Good Listening,  ~Stephen W. Desper   

[Stephen W. Desper]

Great info!

One thing stuck out...all of those sessions in 1969, is there a reason why after Brian's home studio was up and running at full capacity, that they'd decide to book time at a commercial studio instead, and do it that often as it looks from the timeline? I'm going on information that around the time of "Friends", Brian's home studio was complete and fully "stocked" enough to compete with some commercial studios...so why book elsewhere if they got what they wanted (finally) at the house?

Good question, but until the second half of the "Sunflower" sessons, they really continued to use outside studios a lot:  Wally Heider for some vocals/mixdown/editing on "Smiley Smile" and "Wild Honey" (and some basic tracks in the latter case),  I.D. sound for about half of "Friends", several studios (Capitol, Heider, I.D. Sound, Valentine) for "20/20", and Sunset and Gold Star for the "Sunflower" era.  Until they got 16-track at Brian's home studio in late '69.  SO...maybe that's the answer...they needed to bounce between two 8-tracks and only had access to one at Brian's (whether it was leased or owned by the BBs).  When they got the 16-track, that was all they needed.  Suppose?

That could be, definitely the 16 track issue could be the factor...has Stephen Desper ever commented on that? Did he engineer the sessions in 1969 which were held outside the home studio?

I know the Smiley and Wild Honey use of outside studios was due more to the fact that Brian's home studio was still very much a patched-together affair, and there was no really permanent installation or setup in place. Then around Friends, it was all but completed, or at least made more "whole" and permanent for that time - and the outsourcing during and after that period is the one which apart from the 16-track issue is still a mystery. They made the studio, they got it set up, designed, and ready to roll, and yet they were still outsourcing more sessions than I think we assumed before seeing the facts actually laid out in a timeline.

COMMENT:  I have answered this question in detail, if you can somehow look back at past postings, but here in a few words is what the scene was.

The question before management was should a studio be built at Brian's home or not. Someone said let's try it out. At that time I was working mostly on the road, but came in to help Jimmy Lockard who had been hired (through Hider Studios) to make it happen. He rented a Gates Radio Company console and rigged it to work as a recording console. He rented Altec speakers that Brian liked, a 4- then 8-track track from Hider. With a closed circuit TV system between the large living room and Brian's den, across the hallway entrance (foyer) and, oh yes, some headphones and a mic or five, booms -- all that stuff.  We recorded like that for several months. Then a big tour was in the booking. It was decided to build four consoles, special amplifiers, and good microphones for this huge tour in the US and Europe. I was to design the system to be used in a recording studio setting upon return to LA. The system, actually two systems, was thus designed at a cost of 200,000 in 1960-70 dollars. The system was designed and built for the tour. Upon the ending of that tour, a team of carpenters converted one of two living rooms in Brian's house to a studio and control room -- later added an echo chamber. It took several weeks to build the monitor speaker for the control room.

~swd

[Stephen W. Desper]

Desper definitely engineered the basic track session for "All I Want To Do" that was held at Valentine.  According to the Badman book, Bill Lazarus engineered the Sunset Sound sessions for "Got To Know The Woman".  According to Desper, there was an engineer named Don Henderson who assisted with some of the sessions at Capitol.

COMMENT:  I already explained how this engineering system of house and guest engineers worked. Both Bill Lazarus and Don Henderson were house engineers. Lazarus worked with Brian early on.~swd

[Stephen W. Desper]

Valentine supposedly had a great Putnam-designed board, right?

COMMENT:  We started recording at Valentine because it was a new studio, in the valley (near Bruce). It was new, eager for business. They got a rate. Valentine was a "home built" studio, but very nicely done.  A little too nicely done. The owner and builder was so protective of his creation that it became a drag to record there. You couldn't have a drink in the studio. No smoking inside. Valentine was constantly putting coasters under the cups. No coffee in the control room, only in the lounge. We did a few sessions there, but it soon ended what we thought might be a great find. The console was not the reason for going, more the location and rate.  Bill Putnam's last board was a tube board, wasn't it? Valentine was a solid-state studio.

~swd

[Stephen W. Desper]

I actually got to record a bit at Sunset. Very cool, I was in Studio 2 and 3 I believe. I have pics... anyone interested?

Uh, yeah!


I really like the sound of Here Today, and I really think it has a very signature to Sunset Sound sound to it.  I thought it was interesting that Bruce Botnick has noted that he used more big condenser mics than some of the other studios.  Apparently he was using these on guitar amps when a lot of other guys were just doing the 545s or 666s.

In any case, it is very distinct from the Western and Gold Star tracks.

um, wait a second ... did Sunset Sound have an 8-track in '66 then? I thought they got their first in '67. but the info out there is really conflicting. maybe they rented one.

As far as I know it was still 4-track in 66 at SS.

COMMENT:   Multi-track and mastering tape recorders were rented if needed.  There is no such thing as a 4-track or 8-track studio. Heider was the largest renter of tape machines in Los Angeles. He pioneered the concept. He would move a tape machine from studio to studio if you wanted -- following you around with the same machine. Many new studios did not own any equipment. It as all leased. The advantage to this is that you could always have the latest equipment, and in bookkeeping it was an known expense for each month and tax deductable. If you outright owned the equipment you got an annual depreciation. Not nearly the tax benefit as with leasing. Same as a car lease.

~swd

[Stephen W. Desper]

COMMENT: Compressors are used in broadcasting where FCC rules are in play.

Limiters are used in recording. They are used on most everything.
This is to limit or restrict the dynamic range of the raw microphone feed which has too great a dynamic range to be recorded on magnetic tape or vinyl disc. The dynamic range will either distort or cause noise if not limited. Dynamic range of a good tape recorder is 60 dB. Record 65dB. CD is 105dB. The mic feed can be up to 110dB.

Of course, loudness or subjective volume comes into play. Limiters are used to raise the apparent level of a production. This gives an advantage in broadcasting.

If you know how to set a limiter, you will not hear it in action. Manual limiting or "gain riding" is used to produce other results. If the singer has great expression, but it is so expressive that you loose them (their voice) in parts of the mix, gain riding may be required. I have always found it necessary to gain ride on Carl's vocals, otherwise you would not hear the ends of his phrases. I might need to raise his gain by as much as 12 dB, just on the ends of a word at the end of a sentence. He would get to the end of his lung capacity and still need to sing without taking a breath, so he would sing softer. Gain riding was used as an effect in Surf's Up. Another useful technique is to limit the vocal first, but gain ride the signal after the limiter. In that way you are gain riding with a condensed vocal dynamic. This makes it easier to hear the vocal over a backing track or to cut through background vocals with the lead -- without the need to add lots of 3kHz EQ and thin out the vocal sound. You get the rich vocal sound, but it will still be heard over an instrumental track that may also contain useful information at 3kHz.

Gain riding used on parts of drum breaks, say a sting where the drummer makes an accent by -- boom da da boom, boom -- going around all the toms. That move by the drummer may need to be raised overall through gain riding in order to deliver the intended accent through the mix or over and above the normal drum level to "bring out" the tom accent. The best drummers do not play loud. Hal Blaine for example had two very distinct playing styles. One for the studio (soft) and one for the road (loud).  Drums themselves always sound fuller and bigger when played softly under microphones. A soft drum, made loud by amplification in the control room will always have more harmonics and sound richer. If you bang hard on drums, the harmonic is lost and the impact takes over. A loud drummer must be limited or you can't fit all the dynamics onto tape. You hear impact in the mix but the beauty is lost. A softer drummer may not need limiting and you hear more tonality from the drum set in the mix. And then there is drum leakage to all the other open mics in the studio. One reason Hal Blaine was in such demand was that his softer playing did not leak as much and this resulted in a more present sound for the drums -- not a sound so washed out or "room sounding" in the final mix.

A limiter is a device in which you set an upper threshold of level. When that threshold is reached the dynamic is not allowed to go over the setting -- thus limiting the dynamic. The attack and decay of the limiting action can be adjusted (envelope).

A compressor is a device in which you set the lower and upper threshold of level. For sounds that fall lower in level then you set, the compressor lifts the level up to reach your threshold and also keeps peaks from passing on the upper end of the dynamic. This is useful in broadcasting where a radio station needs to keep a constant level going out to the transmitter. Such compression will allow the transmitter to propagate a signal out further into a population. Thus, the listenership of the station increases and with it the ability to sell radio advertising time and to charge more for that time because you are reaching a larger audience.

Up until the eighties limiter and compressors operated over the entire frequency range. Then the three- or more- band limiter was invented. It divided the sound spectrum into three bands and limited each separately. It sounded better for certain if not overused.  Today the "in" sound is created with overuse of limiters. But what can you say? It's all in the name of art.

I use to frequency limit (using EQ) a track and limit the hell out of it while at the same time mixing this highly limited sound with the original track. Thus I could adjust where in the spectrum I wanted the sound to be louder without making it pump.

Limiters can also be used to make effects. Hook two in series with different settings -- useful for drums. Put a limiter on a reverb chamber and set the recovery to compliment the decay of sound in the chamber. I.E., as the sound decays the limiter raises the level -- thus making the chamber "sound" larger with a longer decay. You can also do the opposit -- make a chamber sound smaller. Do this by adjusting the limiter's delay to fall quicker than the delay rate of the chamber. Useful for vocal reverb.

Many limiters have a side-chain input. This input would allow you to insert a signal to be used as a control signal by the limiter rather than the input of the sound that is being limited. Example:  Input the bass guitar. It will not have limiting action on it induced from itself. Into the same limiter, input the kick drum into the side-chain or control input. Thus, the bass is only limited when the kick drum is struck. So if you adjust the attack and release of the limiter to match the sound you want from the kick, the limiter will push the level of the bass guitar down when the kick signal is presented. Sort of making a hole in the dynamic of the bass to allow for the kick and bass, but only when the kick is there. With a fast release, this gives you a bigger bass sound while still allowing the kick to be loud and not pump on the bass in post production. I have used this technique many times.

Limiters are great tools in the studio if you know how to use them to your advantage. If not, they can quickly distroy what would have otherwise been a great sound.

 ~swd

[Dunderhead]

I'm really lovin' this thread, great posts everyone.

[Stephen W. Desper]

Could be from around the era of this photo, which of course we can very accurately date:



Can somebody dig up a photo of the control room during a Doors session or something, to see a later view?

COMMENT:  Anyone notice Murry Wilson in the center of the photo (dark glasses). 

~swd

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Could be from around the era of this photo, which of course we can very accurately date:



Can somebody dig up a photo of the control room during a Doors session or something, to see a later view?

COMMENT:  Anyone notice Murry Wilson in the center of the photo (dark glasses). 

~swd

Stephen, that's actually either Richard or Robert Sherman (I should be able to tell them apart, but I can't).  The two Sherman Brothers are both there along with Annette and Tutti Camarata.  The Shermans, of course, wrote the song being worked on, Monkey's Uncle, which is why they are present.  They were Walt Disney's go to songwriters.  Perhaps you met them, Stephen?