When Mitt Romney becomes president.... *FLUX THREAD!*

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

If they agree to it, what's the problem? Who said you couldn't trade in a free market?

I mean that if you're going to knock the infrastructure because it allows junk food to be transported to every inch of the country, I'm just pointing out that no one is ordered by law to consume this junk food nor are they ordered to shop at Wal-Mart.

[Jason]

I'm just curious as to how you took that poster for being a suggestion that we pledge our allegiance TO Obama?

It's a democratic poster with a bunch of "celebrities" and other folk pledging their allegiance to The United States Of America with specific issues written on their hands as if to say: we pledge our allegiance to the flag of, blah blah, .......  and liberty and justice FOR ALL, and not just some......

At least this is how it appears to me.

Do you see a flag anywhere in that panel? Is the word America anywhere in that panel? The focal point is the Obama logo, which is an O with a flag-like graphic, but not the flag.

If they were pledging the flag in that ad campaign, I'd be fine with them showing the common hand-over-heart American gesture made when pledging the flag or standing as the anthem is played at sports events and whatnot.

Remember this is a campaign that has something called the "Obama Event Registry", which asked his supporters to consider donating their birthday gifts to Obama, as well as including him on your wedding registry so your wedding "gifts" can help his campaign. Article here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8334-503544_162-57459110-503544/obama-campaign-soliciting-birthday-wedding-gifts-in-fundraising-ploy/

For me, the pledge, the Event Registry, the children singing songs, it all adds up to a cult of personality scenario bordering on idolatry which I don't think any US politician should have around him or her, no matter the party.

And I just don't care for seeing Americans, with hand-over-heart, pledging *anything* to something or someone other than the flag. It's disturbing, but that's just me. Again, where is the flag?

I don't pledge allegiance to ANYONE. That includes the flag. The flag is just a symbol. I don't pledge allegiance to a flag. I pledge allegiance to myself.

By the way, the Pledge of Allegiance was written by a socialist in the 1920s and amended in the 1950s to add "under God". And the original Pledge was not said with hand over the heart, but rather with a Nazi salute.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Well, it's a free market-right? Obama is free to commission any sort of campaign swag as he wants. And, though it is an expression of pledging one's allegiance to the flag (itself just a symbol) , it is indeed also an Obama campaign ad! Big Deal! Obama is not mentioned in the pledge of allegiance anyway.

[guitarfool2002]

Well, doesn't some of this boil down to personal responsibility?

My uncle lives in Castro Valley and he (as well as myself, though I may be presenting a conflicting view via devil's advocate) feels much the same as you, Fishmonk, and his neighbors and him have set up a sort of local co-op food exchange program. One family grows this vegetable, this family specializes in another, this guy grows this, and this guy grows that, this guy is a fisherman, this family has a little farm behind their house, ect ect.... they all exchange these good with no dollar currency or credit.

This was how many neighborhoods existed in my Dad's youth, and how many families supported each other through the 30's and the real depression. Local farms, local food, if someone hungry needed a meal people like my grandmother would offer them something like a bowl of potato soup, no questions asked, and a lot of the food came from either family gardens or local farms, and that included meat too. It was both sold by merchants and butchers and farmers, and shared by residents when gardening was far more common in smaller towns. And a lot of my dad's generation of men grew up hunting and fishing with their dads and their brothers, so they'd prepare and eat what they would hunt and fish for, no need to buy anything from a supermarket if you get it all yourself.

It was a pretty good deal.

[Jason]

If they agree to it, what's the problem? Who said you couldn't trade in a free market?

I mean that if you're going to knock the infrastructure because it allows junk food to be transported to every inch of the country, I'm just pointing out that no one is ordered by law to consume this junk food nor are they ordered to shop at Wal-Mart.

I agree. The current laws, however, dissuade people from purchasing from local vendors or farmers because "their food does not meet USDA or FDA regulations". Well, what the f*** is that?!?! It's called the state picking winners and losers. Who wins? Big business, big corporations, big pharma, and the state. Who loses? Everyone else.

sh*t, here in Pennsylvania just a few months ago, a man was arrested by FEDERAL officials for selling raw, unpasteurized milk. And the reaction was not friendly.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/feb/13/feds-shut-down-amish-farm-selling-fresh-milk/?page=all

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Well, put... I also blame the hard-systematically indoctrinated fear of any good/product/item that does not feature a corporate logo.

[guitarfool2002]

I'm just curious as to how you took that poster for being a suggestion that we pledge our allegiance TO Obama?

It's a democratic poster with a bunch of "celebrities" and other folk pledging their allegiance to The United States Of America with specific issues written on their hands as if to say: we pledge our allegiance to the flag of, blah blah, .......  and liberty and justice FOR ALL, and not just some......

At least this is how it appears to me.

Do you see a flag anywhere in that panel? Is the word America anywhere in that panel? The focal point is the Obama logo, which is an O with a flag-like graphic, but not the flag.

If they were pledging the flag in that ad campaign, I'd be fine with them showing the common hand-over-heart American gesture made when pledging the flag or standing as the anthem is played at sports events and whatnot.

Remember this is a campaign that has something called the "Obama Event Registry", which asked his supporters to consider donating their birthday gifts to Obama, as well as including him on your wedding registry so your wedding "gifts" can help his campaign. Article here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8334-503544_162-57459110-503544/obama-campaign-soliciting-birthday-wedding-gifts-in-fundraising-ploy/

For me, the pledge, the Event Registry, the children singing songs, it all adds up to a cult of personality scenario bordering on idolatry which I don't think any US politician should have around him or her, no matter the party.

And I just don't care for seeing Americans, with hand-over-heart, pledging *anything* to something or someone other than the flag. It's disturbing, but that's just me. Again, where is the flag?

I don't pledge allegiance to ANYONE. That includes the flag. The flag is just a symbol. I don't pledge allegiance to a flag. I pledge allegiance to myself.

By the way, the Pledge of Allegiance was written by a socialist in the 1920s and amended in the 1950s to add "under God". And the original Pledge was not said with hand over the heart, but rather with a Nazi salute.

To each his own. It's your choice to pledge or not to pledge to anything, but do you at least find the ad campaign of those folks pledging to whatever it is they're pledging to as disturbing as the "Pledge Of Allegiance" itself? How about those flags some folks were selling that featured Obama's face instead of the stars? I guess a flag is just a flag, however the symbol does mean a lot, to a lot of people.

[Jason]

Well, put... I also blame the hard-systematically indoctrinated fear of good/product/item that does not feature a corporate logo.

And most people have that problem.

[guitarfool2002]

Well, put... I also blame the hard-systematically indoctrinated fear of good/product/item that does not feature a corporate logo.

And most people have that problem.

Whose fault is that?

[guitarfool2002]

Well, it's a free market-right? Obama is free to commission any sort of campaign swag as he wants. And, though it is an expression of pledging one's allegiance to the flag (itself just a symbol) , it is indeed also an Obama campaign ad! Big Deal! Obama is not mentioned in the pledge of allegiance anyway.

If it were a Romney ad (or McCain in 2008) I'm sure the sentiments wouldn't be anywhere near the same. Yes, I'm sure of that. Of course only one party in US politics can regularly hold $50,000 per guest fundraisers and not be roundly criticized for it, such is the double standard.

[Jason]

I'm just curious as to how you took that poster for being a suggestion that we pledge our allegiance TO Obama?

It's a democratic poster with a bunch of "celebrities" and other folk pledging their allegiance to The United States Of America with specific issues written on their hands as if to say: we pledge our allegiance to the flag of, blah blah, .......  and liberty and justice FOR ALL, and not just some......

At least this is how it appears to me.

Do you see a flag anywhere in that panel? Is the word America anywhere in that panel? The focal point is the Obama logo, which is an O with a flag-like graphic, but not the flag.

If they were pledging the flag in that ad campaign, I'd be fine with them showing the common hand-over-heart American gesture made when pledging the flag or standing as the anthem is played at sports events and whatnot.

Remember this is a campaign that has something called the "Obama Event Registry", which asked his supporters to consider donating their birthday gifts to Obama, as well as including him on your wedding registry so your wedding "gifts" can help his campaign. Article here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8334-503544_162-57459110-503544/obama-campaign-soliciting-birthday-wedding-gifts-in-fundraising-ploy/

For me, the pledge, the Event Registry, the children singing songs, it all adds up to a cult of personality scenario bordering on idolatry which I don't think any US politician should have around him or her, no matter the party.

And I just don't care for seeing Americans, with hand-over-heart, pledging *anything* to something or someone other than the flag. It's disturbing, but that's just me. Again, where is the flag?

I don't pledge allegiance to ANYONE. That includes the flag. The flag is just a symbol. I don't pledge allegiance to a flag. I pledge allegiance to myself.

By the way, the Pledge of Allegiance was written by a socialist in the 1920s and amended in the 1950s to add "under God". And the original Pledge was not said with hand over the heart, but rather with a Nazi salute.

To each his own. It's your choice to pledge or not to pledge to anything, but do you at least find the ad campaign of those folks pledging to whatever it is they're pledging to as disturbing as the "Pledge Of Allegiance" itself? How about those flags some folks were selling that featured Obama's face instead of the stars? I guess a flag is just a flag, however the symbol does mean a lot, to a lot of people.

I think it reeks of a personality cult. Please note that throughout history, personality cults have been based around communist or socialist dictators. Granted, the average lightweight, low-rent, double-digit IQ, triple-digit income Obama supporter most likely doesn't know that little bit of history as the only sh*t they can be bothered to read is what's in Cosmopolitan and People magazines. And the ones who do just deny it. I have a word for Obama supporters...it's also a term I've used to describe Brian Wilson. Sociopaths. The lot of them. Every single last one of them. No personal responsibility. Lots of blame for others.

[Jason]

Well, put... I also blame the hard-systematically indoctrinated fear of good/product/item that does not feature a corporate logo.

And most people have that problem.

Whose fault is that?

It's their own fault! They may not be stupid but they certainly are ignorant.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Well, put... I also blame the hard-systematically indoctrinated fear of good/product/item that does not feature a corporate logo.

And most people have that problem.

Whose fault is that?

Hmmmm, that's a tough one but not so simple. Go to almost any grammar school/junior high/high school and there are brand-name soda machines in the halls and Macdonald's sponsored this or that.... When I was in like 3rd grade my school made a big huge deal that we had a free "Macdonald's lunch" one time... When the Coca Cola company got going back in the, what, 1930's(?) they would send coca cola carts/trucks out into the streets and rural areas where they would give kids free samples in order to get them hooked basically. You have to cut young and impressionable minds a bit of slack on the stupidity front. The parents who buckle under the pressure of their kids to buy them this bit of junk and that bit of junk might want to assume full responsibility, then again are any of us parents? I hear it can be quite tough.

[guitarfool2002]

And whether Obama is mentioned in the original pledge or not (irrelevant point...) or not, those people in the ads are NOT saying the standard "Pledge Of Allegiance" anyway! If they were, it wouldn't be a big deal at all, just another case of a politician flag-waving a bit for political gain. In this case, they're going through the motions, pledging to something, holding hands over the hearts, yet the only other image in the ad is that Obama logo. It makes you think they're pledging to something related to Obama if not the Obama campaign itself, unless you can play "Where's Waldo" and spot a flag somewhere in the ads.

[Jason]

It all goes back to the state picking winners. I bet there are some lovely people who make great soda on their own but can't sell it because it doesn't meet FDA regulations.

[guitarfool2002]

Well, put... I also blame the hard-systematically indoctrinated fear of good/product/item that does not feature a corporate logo.

And most people have that problem.

Whose fault is that?

Hmmmm, that's a tough one but not so simple. Go to almost any grammar school/junior high/high school and there are brand-name soda machines in the halls and Macdonald's sponsored this or that.... When I was in like 3rd grade my school made a big huge deal that on we had a free "Macdonald's lunch" one time... When the Coca Cola company got going back in the, what, 1930's(?) they would send coca cola carts/trucks out into the streets and rural areas where they would give kids free samples in order to get them hooked basically.

Has anyone ever forced you to eat McDonald's food, or drink a Coca-Cola?    And at some point, where are those kids' parents anyway? If they don't want their kids drinking Cokes, tell them the reasons why, tell them "no", then don't buy Coke and don't give them money to buy Coke! Simple as that. If the kid seeks it out on his own, that's a blast of human nature and decision-making coming early in life, just wait until cigarettes, joints, bottles of booze, etc are being passed around rather than Coca-Cola or McDonalds and that kid has to make those choices and live with the results, good or bad.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Yes, you are absolutely right..... I'm just presenting another factor in the reality we are faced with. I'm not making an absolute statement on anything. And it requires a bit of diligence in always making the right decision..... I know for a fact due to waiting tables years ago (and through friends that still do) many restaurants maintain a hard-enforced "H20 NO" policy, meaning wait staff is required to attempt to dissuade customers from simply ordering ice water with their meals. They're supposed to do stupid things like say "So, soft drinks for all"? and if someone tries to order water, they'll go on a rap about soft drink specials etc..... I'm just saying it can be taxing trying to avoid the wolves.

[Jason]

There's no excuse for laziness. Either avoid the wolves or sit back and enjoy being someone's meal.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

There's no excuse for laziness. Either avoid the wolves or sit back and enjoy being someone's meal.

Laziness or not: you got to admit the free market stacks the numbers pretty unfairly against better judgement in the face of all kinds of people/money/power that really really REALLY want you to exercise bad judgement. There is something to be said here. Food for thought at least. I mean: "That's just the way it is" would seem to be something of a cop-out. Goes back to the need for SOME form of Government/enforcement otherwise someone would be shilling rat poison on a stick with a bit of sugar on top if someone was dumb enough to buy it, and I don't think humans should be able to prey on the dumb without consequence...... But this is just me....

[Jason]

How is selling a product "preying upon the dumb"? If I was holding a gun to a retarded guy's head and saying "buy my sh*t or else", I'd say there's a problem. But no. They do it of their own free will.

One thing lost in the anti-corporate jargon is that the left is rather...selective about what companies they're against. You never hear a leftist claim that Apple is "preying upon the dumb", for example.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

How is selling a product "preying upon the dumb"? If I was holding a gun to a retarded guy's head and saying "buy my sh*t or else", I'd say there's a problem. But no. They do it of their own free will.

One thing lost in the anti-corporate jargon is that the left is rather...selective about what companies they're against. You never hear a leftist claim that Apple is "preying upon the dumb", for example.

Oh, don't get me started on Apple!!!!  

And I'm not saying the free market/corporations shouldn't exist! Not at all!!! Teams of highly paid psychologists are utilized to help coerce people into buying all sorts of sh*te of all manner. Is this wrong? No! Can it go too far? Should it be regulated in some way? I think, certainly. As someone else put it earlier: I have no problem with laws existing and being enforced to make everyone play fair. There are murderous psychopaths out there and they don't just kill with knives, clubs, their bare hands, or (gulp) guns! Just because someone CAN do something awful, doesn't mean we should just roll over and accept it.... This everyman for himself bit, I get, I really do, and I tend to lean that way myself, but there is a whole other side to reality as well and that is we are all part of a human community regardless of how we feel about that fact..... Let me ask you: if someone hired a hit man to kill someone you know and care about, would you want the hitman punished as well as whoever hired them, or would you just view the hitman as someone simply utilizing the free-market? I'm just trying to suss out any possible limits here.....

[Jason]

People need to regulate their own behaviors, hobbies, actions, and tastes.

If someone hired a hit man to kill someone I know and care about, I would hope the targeted individual would have some means to defend him or herself. Of course I would want the hit man and his/her employer punished...but it would be up to the individual's next of kin to determine how they are punished.

The free market stops when tactics infringe upon the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of others. Hit men are not venture capitalists or entrepreneurs...they're criminals.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

People need to regulate their own behaviors, hobbies, actions, and tastes.

If someone hired a hit man to kill someone I know and care about, I would hope the targeted individual would have some means to defend him or herself. Of course I would want the hit man and his/her employer punished...but it would be up to the individual's next of kin to determine how they are punished.

The free market stops when tactics infringe upon the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of others. Hit men are not venture capitalists or entrepreneurs...they're criminals.

That was a ridiculous question on my part, but good answer!

But I ask this: how is a child supposed to regulate their own tastes when they are bombarded from the first glimmer of cognizance by ads for this sugary/teeth rotting goop and that? It's all tied in with cartoons and movies to convince them to buy the toys, fast food tie-ins, etc..... And how are parents supposed to be above all this when they, themselves were indoctrinated as well (it doesn't work with everyone, but it does with a damn lot)? It's worth it to ask why anyone WANTS Macdonalds, or Coffee, or beer/booze/cigarettes,but the answer is easy enough in part: heavy advertizing, peer pressure, laziness, and yes, human psychology which is a tricky and complex thing. And there is a big money out there invested in finding it's loopholes and weak spots.... In fact, that we even exist in a world where people take economics and free markets/capitalism as naturally occurring laws of nature is pretty insane in itself if you think about it.

Once again: I am not bashing the free market's mere existence, nor am I suggesting we do away with it, but I will not deify it in the face all it's negative points nor will I ignore them or call a kid stupid because he wants a whopper because he loves Indiana Jones and sees this big huge "Get the triple "Indy Whopper" sign in the Burger King window with Harrison Ford's mug.

[Jason]

It all goes back to self-control. In the case of a child, the parent has final say. Period. Anything otherwise and you're going to have the state raising children, educating them, feeding and clothing them, and employing them. But the left wants that, so...

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

It all goes back to self-control. In the case of a child, the parent has final say. Period. Anything otherwise and you're going to have the state raising children, educating them, feeding and clothing them, and employing them. But the left wants that, so...

Wait, wait wait! That's a bit extreme. Enforcing/regulating the junk food industry's lack of conscience somehow means the state raises children? I guess you'd rather the junk food industry raise them? I tell you it's damn near impossible to completely and effectively regulate your child's wants and desires. They are hit by marketed temptation from all sides. Not all parents can afford to have someone at home to home-school their kids. C'mon, man. You must know this or you live in a cave ..... ......... with wifi and equipment to play your Beach Boys albums on......