THE BEST Surf's Up revelation.

[Bicyclerider]

Oh, and as an aside - what's the source for Who Ran the Iron Horse ever being part of H & V?  That's a new one on me.

[runnersdialzero]

"Heroes", "Vega-Tables", "You're With Me Tonight", "Our Prayer" all share elements,

Not in the way I'm talking about, they don't. Explain at what point of Our Prayer is another song added. Furthermore, we don't really know if With Me Tonight is even a Smile track or a section of another track or what.

"With Me Tonight" - you're splitting hairs. It's a track recorded during the Smile sessions, several versions which contain the backing vocal arrangements from the 2nd verse of "Vega-Tables".

"Our Prayer" has the beginning of the "Heroes" chorus bassline in it. Mike does that little ascending bassline from the very beginning of the chorus right in the beginning of "Prayer".

There are a number of Smile tracks that show clear reference to one another.

Surf's Up doesn't reference Child is Father of the Man, it has a Child is Father of the Man section as its coda. You can't say, for example, that Heroes and Villains references the Cantina section. It's just part of the song.

It's a variation on "Child", though. It's not just a bit of "Child" tacked on for good measure. This is the case for several Smile tracks as it existed in 66/67.

Also, I hadn't heard the words "messing up" specifically, but we know Brian was not into the idea of finishing this song at some point - some reports say initially, others say the entire time up until the end. To have him suddenly burst into the room saying "This is how it goes", handing out parts, kind of indicates a sort of "If you feel you have to do this, at least do it right" sort of thing, to me.

And "doing it right" included using a demo version of the song to complete it? Was that the intention in 1966 as well?

Fair point, but they'd done the work already. It's not my fault that Brian is inconsistent and chose to remain passive more times than just this once. Still, fair point.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

"With Me Tonight" - you're splitting hairs. It's a track recorded during the Smile sessions, several versions which contain the backing vocal arrangements from the 2nd verse of "Vega-Tables".

Was it recorded during the Smile sessions? The track on the Smile Sessions boxset is dated June 6th and 7th of 1967, putting it squarely during the Smiley Smile sessions, which also happen to have been during the Vegetables sessions. Is it not possible that maybe With Me Tonight isn't referencing Vega-Tables but was instead possibly considered part of it?

"Our Prayer" has the beginning of the "Heroes" chorus bassline in it. Mike does that little ascending bassline from the very beginning of the chorus right in the beginning of "Prayer".

Oh, come on. That is something different completely.

It's a variation on "Child", though. It's not just a bit of "Child" tacked on for good measure.

I'm aware of that but it's a direct incorporation, not just a reference. You can say that the end of Surf's Up contains a "variation" of Child but you could never say that a section of Our Prayer contains a variation of Heroes and Villains.

This is the case for several Smile tracks as it existed in 66/67.

In fact, it's not the case for any of them, save one. The one exception is when Brian put the Bicycle Rider section into Heroes and Villains but at that point he was throwing everything he could at Heroes and it may have been the case that he would have had to eliminate Works all together because of that move - or at least the Bicycle Rider section of Worms may have no longer worked there.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

Just listened to the Our Prayer multitrack , no way, Mike's part is not even close, either attempt.

[Reddiwhip]

"With Me Tonight" - you're splitting hairs. It's a track recorded during the Smile sessions, several versions which contain the backing vocal arrangements from the 2nd verse of "Vega-Tables".

Was it recorded during the Smile sessions? The track on the Smile Sessions boxset is dated June 6th and 7th of 1967, putting it squarely during the Smiley Smile sessions, which also happen to have been during the Vegetables sessions. Is it not possible that maybe With Me Tonight isn't referencing Vega-Tables but was instead [possibly considered part of it?

"Our Prayer" has the beginning of the "Heroes" chorus bassline in it. Mike does that little ascending bassline from the very beginning of the chorus right in the beginning of "Prayer".

Oh, come on. That is something different completely.

It's a variation on "Child", though. It's not just a bit of "Child" tacked on for good measure.

I'm aware of that but it's a direct incorporation, not just a reference. You can say that the end of Surf's Up contains a "variation" of Child but you could never say that a section of Our Prayer contains a variation of Heroes and Villains.

This is the case for several Smile tracks as it existed in 66/67.

In fact, it's not the case for any of them, save one. The one exception is when Brian put the Bicycle Rider section into Heroes and Villains but at that point he was throwing everything he could at Heroes and it may have been the case that he would have had to eliminate Works all together because of that move - or at least the Bicycle Rider section of Worms may have no longer worked there.

Something that should also be mentioned regarding the Heroes and Villains Bicycle Rider connection is that they are in two different keys.  The DYLW section is Gm and C7 while the H+V version is in D#m and G#7.  He couldn't just take one section from DYLW and stick it into H+V

[Chocolate Shake Man]

"With Me Tonight" - you're splitting hairs. It's a track recorded during the Smile sessions, several versions which contain the backing vocal arrangements from the 2nd verse of "Vega-Tables".

Was it recorded during the Smile sessions? The track on the Smile Sessions boxset is dated June 6th and 7th of 1967, putting it squarely during the Smiley Smile sessions, which also happen to have been during the Vegetables sessions. Is it not possible that maybe With Me Tonight isn't referencing Vega-Tables but was instead [possibly considered part of it?

"Our Prayer" has the beginning of the "Heroes" chorus bassline in it. Mike does that little ascending bassline from the very beginning of the chorus right in the beginning of "Prayer".

Oh, come on. That is something different completely.

It's a variation on "Child", though. It's not just a bit of "Child" tacked on for good measure.

I'm aware of that but it's a direct incorporation, not just a reference. You can say that the end of Surf's Up contains a "variation" of Child but you could never say that a section of Our Prayer contains a variation of Heroes and Villains.

This is the case for several Smile tracks as it existed in 66/67.

In fact, it's not the case for any of them, save one. The one exception is when Brian put the Bicycle Rider section into Heroes and Villains but at that point he was throwing everything he could at Heroes and it may have been the case that he would have had to eliminate Works all together because of that move - or at least the Bicycle Rider section of Worms may have no longer worked there.

Something that should also be mentioned regarding the Heroes and Villains Bicycle Rider connection is that they are in two different keys.  The DYLW section is Gm and C7 while the H+V version is in D#m and G#7.  He couldn't just take one section from DYLW and stick it into H+V

Good point but I don't mean that he took one section and transplanted it, putting it into another. That's not what is happening Surf's Up 1971. What happens on Surf's Up 1971 was not done with any other Smile track - except for when Brian did the variation of Worms for H&V but who the hell knows what was going on with the Smile project at that point.

[runnersdialzero]

I'm saying multiple Smile sections share common elements as "Surf's Up" contains a variation on "Child", not just "Child" with its key changed inserted onto the ending or something. No version of "Child" contains the "A children's song" melody, among several other vocal parts not present on any version of "Child". It's not direct, it's closer to a reference - it's the ending of "Surf's Up" as played on the demo in '66 with a much more elaborate variation on the chorus of "Child" put over the top of it.

I'm not sure how you're basically trying to disprove that several Smile sections share elements with one another, but fair enough. I'm not talking about Brian taking a section from one song and moving it to another (as you seem to be), I'm talking about melodic and musical fragments that exist in multiple songs and reference one another.

Agree to disagree, I guess, as we're not gonna convince one another. Sorry if I came off as a dick anywhere, no hard feelin's, that sorta thing.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

Mama Says. 'nuff said.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'm saying multiple Smile sections share common elements as "Surf's Up" contains a variation on "Child", not just "Child" with its key changed inserted onto the ending or something. No version of "Child" contains the "A children's song" melody, among several other vocal parts not present on any version of "Child".

Yes, but as I have been reminded in this thread, the "children's song" part seemed to definitely be a 1971 creation.

It's not direct, it's closer to a reference

I'd call something that directly uses the same lyrics and basically the same chorus vocals direct.

 

I'm not sure how you're basically trying to disprove that several Smile sections share elements with one another, but fair enough.

Because they don't really exist, not on the level that we see with Surf's Up incorporating Child.

I'm not talking about Brian taking a section from one song and moving it to another (as you seem to be),

I do? Did you miss two posts ago where I wrote: "I don't mean that he took one section and transplanted it, putting it into another. That's not what is happening Surf's Up 1971."

I'm talking about melodic and musical fragments that exist in multiple songs and reference one another.

Well, I'm not talking about that either. I'm talking something akin doing a round of "I'm gonna keep well my Vegatables/Cart off and sell my Vegetables" at the end of Wind Chimes. This sort of thing was simply not done on Smile. But it became part of the Smile style in 1971 and was then used to a larger degree on BWPS (Child in Song for Children, Plymouth Rock in Holidays). And I think it's for those reasons that people like to think it was part of Brian's vision back in 1966, despite no evidence to suggest it.

[Andrew G. Doe]

This may be the coolest thing i've seen on any album/song ever.

Listen to the last line of the 2nd part,

"I heard the Word /

WONDERFUL thing /

A CHILDREN's SONG /

The CHILD IS FATHER OF THE MAN"...

Notice that both BWPS and TSS both have "Look" changed to "Song for Children".... Proof of the 2nd movement?!?!

No.

[Ebb and Flow]

The descending bass line that the piano plays at the end of Surf's Up is a clear and direct musical reference to Child Is Father Of The Man.  Whether Brian intended the coda to include the "A Children's Song" vocals in '66 is undetermined, but to deny there's a link at all is ignoring the musical structure of the song itself.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Who Ran The Iron Horse was taken out of H&V and put into Cabinessence...

Show me your documented source for this statement, please. I've seen it mentioned in precisely one place since 1967 - your post.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

The descending bass line that the piano plays at the end of Surf's Up is a clear and direct musical reference to Child Is Father Of The Man.  

Really? I don't see that at all, personally.

[Reddiwhip]

The descending bass line that the piano plays at the end of Surf's Up is a clear and direct musical reference to Child Is Father Of The Man.  Whether Brian intended the coda to include the "A Children's Song" vocals in '66 is undetermined, but to deny there's a link at all is ignoring the musical structure of the song itself.

I think that the coda was meant to be wordless in 1966.  It seems like Brian's assertion in one of the teen mags (it's in LLVS) that people can get hung up on words applies here.  It would also make sense with Surf's Up as an album or side closer because it starts with ahs (Our Prayer) and ends with ahs (Surf's Up).  Just my .02

[EgoHanger1966]

The descending bass line that the piano plays at the end of Surf's Up is a clear and direct musical reference to Child Is Father Of The Man.  

Really? I don't see that at all, personally.

I hear it. Very clearly. Not sure if it was his way of incorporating that idea without vocalising it, or just a happy coincidence.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

It's VERY prominent, listen to the  "Doooo   Doo Bah Dooooooo"

[EgoHanger1966]

It's VERY prominent, listen to the  "Doooo   Doo Bah Dooooooo"

You sound like Murry. Syncopate it!

[runnersdialzero]

THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST THE BEST?

[Reddiwhip]

The descending bass line that the piano plays at the end of Surf's Up is a clear and direct musical reference to Child Is Father Of The Man.  

Really? I don't see that at all, personally.

I hear it. Very clearly. Not sure if it was his way of incorporating that idea without vocalising it, or just a happy coincidence.

I just listened to the 66 demo with Brian's double tracked vocals from the GV box set.  What I hear in the left hand at the beginning of the ahh coda is not the same, rhythm or melody, to child child child the child father of the man.  There is in the eighth notes of the pounding right hand (Fm7 Cm7/F Bb Cm), but not in the left hand.   The descending bass that comes from the Bb to Cm transition is not melodically similar to anything that is a part of the child chant.  They go together beautifully, but musically speaking, I don't hear any melodic or rhythmic clues from 1966.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

The descending bass line that the piano plays at the end of Surf's Up is a clear and direct musical reference to Child Is Father Of The Man.  

Really? I don't see that at all, personally.

I hear it. Very clearly. Not sure if it was his way of incorporating that idea without vocalising it, or just a happy coincidence.

I just listened to the 66 demo with Brian's double tracked vocals from the GV box set.  What I hear in the left hand at the beginning of the ahh coda is not the same, rhythm or melody, to child child child the child father of the man.  There is in the eighth notes of the pounding right hand (Fm7 Cm7/F Bb Cm), but not in the left hand.   The descending bass that comes from the Bb to Cm transition is not melodically similar to anything that is a part of the child chant.  They go together beautifully, but musically speaking, I don't hear any melodic or rhythmic clues from 1966.

I listened to it - not sure if they mean the part that only the bass plays right before the Child chorus.

[Reddiwhip]

The descending bass line that the piano plays at the end of Surf's Up is a clear and direct musical reference to Child Is Father Of The Man.  

Really? I don't see that at all, personally.

I hear it. Very clearly. Not sure if it was his way of incorporating that idea without vocalising it, or just a happy coincidence.

I just listened to the 66 demo with Brian's double tracked vocals from the GV box set.  What I hear in the left hand at the beginning of the ahh coda is not the same, rhythm or melody, to child child child the child father of the man.  There is in the eighth notes of the pounding right hand (Fm7 Cm7/F Bb Cm), but not in the left hand.   The descending bass that comes from the Bb to Cm transition is not melodically similar to anything that is a part of the child chant.  They go together beautifully, but musically speaking, I don't hear any melodic or rhythmic clues from 1966.

I listened to it - not sure if they mean the part that only the bass plays right before the Child chorus.

In any event, I think they're the same run.

[Sam_BFC]

Just listened to the Our Prayer multitrack , no way, Mike's part is not even close, either attempt.

Does such thing exist?

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

I got it from the SMiLE A.D. fanmix kit, all the parts are isolated. Great stuff.

[Sam_BFC]

Ah right that's cool...not genuine multi-tracks though is it?  Sorry to be a pedantic dick. 

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

Nope, but you can still pull the harmonies apart