In The Aftermath of SMiLE's Collapse......

[DonnyL]

I can totally see why the simplicity of just sitting the band down and banging out semi-live versions in a couple of weeks seemed a much more attractive prospect. 

And, I think that's exactly what happened. However....

I can't help but think, at that precise moment, when Brian decided to do that - Smiley Smile-ize the tracks if you will - is when Brian took his first step backwards, artistically speaking. Yes, some people see great art in Smiley Smile, and I respect those opinions. I don't agree, though.

I'm not criticizing Brian, blasting him, or second-guessing him. I just think at that moment in time, he gave up in a lot of ways - physically, mentally, and spiritually. And, he was never really the same again. Or, I should say his music was never the same again. One can't deny the occasional flashes of brilliance in subsequent efforts, and, yes, there were some. But, in my opinion, just one man's opinion, there just seemed to be gradual decline.

I don't want to oversimplify it, but if you used a graph to track Brian's "performance", I would probably peak it at SMiLE and start a gradual decline the moment he decided on Smiley Smile.

Exactly. And so, the legend of Brian Wilson and SMiLE was born.

I always assumed this was a pretty widely held point of view 

On this board, there are those (several?) who would push the point of decline past Wild Honey and Friends, maybe even past Sunflower. And, hey, if that's what they believe, no problem. I usually look at Smiley Smile. 

to me, Today through Sunflower is flawless ... and plenty of gems before and after. the group's entire career is by far the most compelling and interesting body of music ever released as far as I'm concerned !

[Reddiwhip]

Do we know what the boys said about the radical shift in style? Mike was against Smile, they say, but he had no problem with Smiley? Whoa.

I'd presume the more commercially minded members of the band would have called a time out when Brian presented them with Smiley Smile -type of music. Maybe even pushed for the completion of Smile instead, on the double?

I just can't understand it. They had a problem with Smile but no problem with Smiley Smile? Either the guys were more avant garde than given credit, or they just gave up and were desperate for anything. I dunno. But they had almost complete masterpiece ready, and that would have been a good time to support Brian and his Smile. Better late than never?

But no. "Hey, good thing you scrapped that ego music, now let's hum along creepy Baldwin backings." I just don't follow these guys.

You have to remember that at least the three Wilson brothers and Mike Love were taking drugs at the time, most notably marijuana.  It wasn't until later that Mike Love (and then Al to a certain extent) started TM.  It's not hard to get a record like this produced when the two leaders of the group are stoned.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Do we know what the boys said about the radical shift in style? Mike was against Smile, they say, but he had no problem with Smiley? Whoa.

I'd presume the more commercially minded members of the band would have called a time out when Brian presented them with Smiley Smile -type of music. Maybe even pushed for the completion of Smile instead, on the double?

I just can't understand it. They had a problem with Smile but no problem with Smiley Smile? Either the guys were more avant garde than given credit, or they just gave up and were desperate for anything. I dunno. But they had almost complete masterpiece ready, and that would have been a good time to support Brian and his Smile. Better late than never?

But no. "Hey, good thing you scrapped that ego music, now let's hum along creepy Baldwin backings." I just don't follow these guys.

It makes sense if their problem with Smile were the lyrics and production that was so overblown and complicated that it looked like they would never release anything again and only spend time in the studio with Brian making them make silly noises for no apparent reason.

[EgoHanger1966]

Do we know what the boys said about the radical shift in style? Mike was against Smile, they say, but he had no problem with Smiley? Whoa.

I'd presume the more commercially minded members of the band would have called a time out when Brian presented them with Smiley Smile -type of music. Maybe even pushed for the completion of Smile instead, on the double?

I just can't understand it. They had a problem with Smile but no problem with Smiley Smile? Either the guys were more avant garde than given credit, or they just gave up and were desperate for anything. I dunno. But they had almost complete masterpiece ready, and that would have been a good time to support Brian and his Smile. Better late than never?

But no. "Hey, good thing you scrapped that ego music, now let's hum along creepy Baldwin backings." I just don't follow these guys.

You have to remember that at least the three Wilson brothers and Mike Love were taking drugs at the time, most notably marijuana.  It wasn't until later that Mike Love (and then Al to a certain extent) started TM.  It's not hard to get a record like this produced when the two leaders of the group are stoned.

I don't know that marijuana stunted SMiLE. For Brian, it opened up pathways to create the sounds that comprise much of that album. I doubt he could have done a lot of that stuff without mind expansion.

PS - I love your signature, Reddiwhip! "Mother" is probably my favorite movie.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

PS - I love your signature, Reddiwhip! "Mother" is probably my favorite movie.

What!? Let's start a new thread. Albert Brooks is my favourite comedian! And how did I miss Reddiwhip's signature?

[Reddiwhip]

Do we know what the boys said about the radical shift in style? Mike was against Smile, they say, but he had no problem with Smiley? Whoa.

I'd presume the more commercially minded members of the band would have called a time out when Brian presented them with Smiley Smile -type of music. Maybe even pushed for the completion of Smile instead, on the double?

I just can't understand it. They had a problem with Smile but no problem with Smiley Smile? Either the guys were more avant garde than given credit, or they just gave up and were desperate for anything. I dunno. But they had almost complete masterpiece ready, and that would have been a good time to support Brian and his Smile. Better late than never?

But no. "Hey, good thing you scrapped that ego music, now let's hum along creepy Baldwin backings." I just don't follow these guys.

You have to remember that at least the three Wilson brothers and Mike Love were taking drugs at the time, most notably marijuana.  It wasn't until later that Mike Love (and then Al to a certain extent) started TM.  It's not hard to get a record like this produced when the two leaders of the group are stoned.

I don't know that marijuana stunted SMiLE. For Brian, it opened up pathways to create the sounds that comprise much of that album. I doubt he could have done a lot of that stuff without mind expansion.

PS - I love your signature, Reddiwhip! "Mother" is probably my favorite movie.

RE: signature; yeah, I was debating about either that quote or "It's the 90s, mother.  It's fancy jam time.

[hypehat]

Do we know what the boys said about the radical shift in style? Mike was against Smile, they say, but he had no problem with Smiley? Whoa.

I'd presume the more commercially minded members of the band would have called a time out when Brian presented them with Smiley Smile -type of music. Maybe even pushed for the completion of Smile instead, on the double?

I just can't understand it. They had a problem with Smile but no problem with Smiley Smile? Either the guys were more avant garde than given credit, or they just gave up and were desperate for anything. I dunno. But they had almost complete masterpiece ready, and that would have been a good time to support Brian and his Smile. Better late than never?

But no. "Hey, good thing you scrapped that ego music, now let's hum along creepy Baldwin backings." I just don't follow these guys.

You have to remember that at least the three Wilson brothers and Mike Love were taking drugs at the time, most notably marijuana.  It wasn't until later that Mike Love (and then Al to a certain extent) started TM.  It's not hard to get a record like this produced when the two leaders of the group are stoned.

I don't know that marijuana stunted SMiLE. For Brian, it opened up pathways to create the sounds that comprise much of that album. I doubt he could have done a lot of that stuff without mind expansion.

PS - I love your signature, Reddiwhip! "Mother" is probably my favorite movie.

That's not what he's saying at all - he's saying that, if Mike was getting pissy about Van Dyke's lyrics and Smile being an unending horror story of blowing kazoos on Heroes & Villains part 7 (revised version, take 73), getting Mike high would slow his roll a little and the sessions are a bit more accessible. Also, Smiley sessions were not the same level of dithering (to be unkind), which is probably another factor in his acceptance.

[Cam Mott]

The problems that shelved SMiLE were Brian's problems with the material, mainly Brian's problem with the lyrics and his feeling it was was over-elaborate in the end. According to Brian, the Boys were not happy that Brian was shelving SMiLE but Brian did it anyway. When Brian decided he wanted the different approach he took with Smiley, the Boys did what they always did which was trust Brian's muse regardless of any reservations and work their hardest to do as Brian asked whether they understood it or not. We keep trying to make these decisions out as something Brian didn't want or believe in but I think we need to get used to the idea that Brian got and did everything the way he wanted.

[Theydon Bois]

mainly Brian's problem with the lyrics

Apologies - I'm sure you've been over this many times before - but what is the evidence that Brian had a problem with the lyrics?  Did he actually criticise them somewhere?  And if they were, as you say, one of his big problems, why ("He Gives Speeches" aside) would he retain these problematic lyrics for the refashioned versions of Smile songs on Smiley?

[Jukka]

The lyrics he retained were, aside from Heroes and Villains, mainly simpler ones. Vegetables, Wonderful (now that's a nice, understandable love song), Wind Chimes... Surf' Up and Cabinessence were axed, being much more elaborate both as productions and lyrics. I don't really know (who does) if the lyrics played any part in which songs he chose for Smiley, but the fact is the chosen songs are from the simpler end of the Smile spectrum.

[Cam Mott]

Brian said they were too arty and not Beach Boys and Anderle said he thought the "main" reason SMiLE was cancelled was the conflict between Parks and Brian with Brian feeling that Parks' lyrics were too sophisicated. Apparently not all of the lyrics were too arty or sophiticated or not Beach Boys for Brian's Muse/taste.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Both Heroes and Villains and Wonderful have complex and abstract lyrics. Van Dyke Parks didn't write the lyrics to Wind Chimes but he did write part of She's Going Bald. Brian loved the lyrics Van Dyke wrote - he's on record as saying that both now and his love for them at the time is evident - see his deconstruction of the Surf's Up lyrics in the Siegel article for evidence of that. If Brian criticized Van Dyke's lyrics, it's because outside influences made him lose confidence in them. But it seems that in the back of his mind, Brian had a soft spot for songs like Surf's Up, which I guess is why he kept playing it after the sessions collapsed. I don't believe for a second that Brian had a problem with those lyrics until he was made to have a problem with them.

This story simply doesn't wash - if it was the lyrics that drove Brian away from Smile then he quite simply would not have retained so many on Smiley.

[Summertime Blooz]

The problems that shelved SMiLE were Brian's problems with the material, mainly Brian's problem with the lyrics and his feeling it was was over-elaborate in the end. According to Brian, the Boys were not happy that Brian was shelving SMiLE but Brian did it anyway. When Brian decided he wanted the different approach he took with Smiley, the Boys did what they always did which was trust Brian's muse regardless of any reservations and work their hardest to do as Brian asked whether they understood it or not. We keep trying to make these decisions out as something Brian didn't want or believe in but I think we need to get used to the idea that Brian got and did everything the way he wanted.

Just because you make a decision to do something, this does not necessarily mean that you "want" to do it. There are all sorts of factors that can affect your decision-making process, your own personal desires and hopes being only one of those factors. However, if Brian truly was unhappy with the way SMiLE was turning out (we'll never know for sure) and decided to go all low-fi on our asses with Smiley Smile, then I think that was a genuinely horrible artistic decision.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I think it's possible and probable that Brian originally found Van Dyke Parks and his talent for lyric writing very fascinating, hip, and maybe even what he was looking for in a collaborator in mid/late 1966.

It's also possible that by early 1967, some of those lyrics lost their "hipness" or edge with Brian, and he started to question them. Of course any previous criticism of VDP's lyrics could plant that seed in Brian's mind, I'm not denying that. But, really, after all that time, effort, and something to show for all that work, meaning the brilliant SMiLE tracks that Brian laid down, don't you think that Brian would've been going with his gut feeling when he scrapped SMiLE? I mean, Brian knew how great that music was; I can't see him discarding it if HE really loved it. Maybe, believe it or not, by early 1967, he no longer did.  

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I think it's possible and probable that Brian originally found Van Dyke Parks and his talent for lyric writing very fascinating, hip, and maybe even what he was looking for in a collaborator in mid/late 1966.

It's also possible that by early 1967, some of those lyrics lost their "hipness" or edge with Brian, and he started to question them. Of course any previous criticism of VDP's lyrics could plant that seed in Brian's mind, I'm not denying that. But, really, after all that time, effort, and something to show for all that work, meaning the brilliant SMiLE tracks that Brian laid down, don't you think that Brian would've been going with his gut feeling when he scrapped SMiLE? I mean, Brian knew how great that music was; I can't see him discarding it if HE really loved it. Maybe, believe it or not, by early 1967, he no longer did.  

Like I've said, no, I don't believe that nor do I find the argument for it convincing that he must have disliked it since he put so much work into it.

[Cam Mott]

I don't think he didn't like them, he has said he thought they were too arty and not for the Beach Boys and reportedly felt they were too sophisticated.

The problem to me with outside influence is who would it have been? I don't see any evidence of anyone having that sort of influence on Brian and before we start pointing fingers at the Boys he said it was his feelings and the Boys were not happy with his decision to scrap the SMiLE songs. They also seemed to be bewildered/clueless by why they redid the songs they redid.

[Theydon Bois]

I don't think he didn't like them, he has said he thought they were too arty and not for the Beach Boys and reportedly felt they were too sophisticated.

Can you give the source for these comments?  Is it Anderle?  I don't doubt Brian said it, but I'd like to read it from the horse's mouth if possible, and especially to know the context.  After all, it's practically a running joke on this board that Brian changes his mind every five minutes and is endlessly contradicting himself.  Was it before or after he sang the gorgeous 1967 version of "Surf's Up" from the box set?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I don't think he didn't like them, he has said he thought they were too arty and not for the Beach Boys and reportedly felt they were too sophisticated.

So he decided to record Fall Breaks and Back to Winter instead?

The problem to me with outside influence is who would it have been? I don't see any evidence of anyone having that sort of influence on Brian and before we start pointing fingers at the Boys he said it was his feelings and the Boys were not happy with his decision to scrap the SMiLE songs. They also seemed to be bewildered/clueless by why they redid the songs they redid.

We've had this discussion before and I just don't think your side of the discussion is convincing at all. We know that Brian loses focus on the album right at the same time as the blow-up session in December and to me, that's fairly compelling. Everytime these cases are brought up, you simply say that while he eventually came around to the same point of view of these people, it was STILL Brian's point of view. I'm sorry, but I just don't understand why it is so necessary to take this stand.

[Jim V.]

I don't think he didn't like them, he has said he thought they were too arty and not for the Beach Boys and reportedly felt they were too sophisticated.

Can you give the source for these comments?  Is it Anderle?  I don't doubt Brian said it, but I'd like to read it from the horse's mouth if possible, and especially to know the context.  After all, it's practically a running joke on this board that Brian changes his mind every five minutes and is endlessly contradicting himself.  Was it before or after he sang the gorgeous 1967 version of "Surf's Up" from the box set?

I'm not Cam (obviously), but I don't think Brian was ever against stuff like "Surf's Up". One has to remember the quote from a 1968 rock 'n roll special, where he said something like "some people like to hang onto certain things and ... just as their own little songs that they've written almost for themselves. And a lot of times, you know, a person will write and will realize later that they're ... it's not commercial, you know, but what they've written is nice for them". So I think maybe the late 1967 recording of "Surf's Up" was just that for Brian. Just a little something recorded for posterity. It was his song that he was proud of, and he just wanted to keep it to himself. However, obviously by 1971 it was obvious the group needed a certain something to help them gain some momentum commercially, and he agreed with Jack Rieley that he would put "Surf's Up" on the next album. And I'm happy he ended up making good on that agreement.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I can't see that either. After all, Good Vibrations should have convinced Brian that his move into more experimental territory could have resulted in huge commercial success. Furthermore, I don't think that his post-Smile work is indicative of a guy who is trying to make specifically commercial music.

[Summertime Blooz]

I don't think he didn't like them, he has said he thought they were too arty and not for the Beach Boys and reportedly felt they were too sophisticated.

Can you give the source for these comments?  Is it Anderle?  I don't doubt Brian said it, but I'd like to read it from the horse's mouth if possible, and especially to know the context.  After all, it's practically a running joke on this board that Brian changes his mind every five minutes and is endlessly contradicting himself.  Was it before or after he sang the gorgeous 1967 version of "Surf's Up" from the box set?

I'm not Cam (obviously), but I don't think Brian was ever against stuff like "Surf's Up". One has to remember the quote from a 1968 rock 'n roll special, where he said something like "some people like to hang onto certain things and ... just as their own little songs that they've written almost for themselves. And a lot of times, you know, a person will write and will realize later that they're ... it's not commercial, you know, but what they've written is nice for them". So I think maybe the late 1967 recording of "Surf's Up" was just that for Brian. Just a little something recorded for posterity. It was his song that he was proud of, and he just wanted to keep it to himself. However, obviously by 1971 it was obvious the group needed a certain something to help them gain some momentum commercially, and he agreed with Jack Rieley that he would put "Surf's Up" on the next album. And I'm happy he ended up making good on that agreement.

I thought it was pressure from Warner Bros. that led to Surf's Up inclusion on the album. Wasn't it part of their deal with the label that Smile would be finished and released?

[Dove Nested Towers]

I don't think he didn't like them, he has said he thought they were too arty and not for the Beach Boys and reportedly felt they were too sophisticated.

Can you give the source for these comments?  Is it Anderle?  I don't doubt Brian said it, but I'd like to read it from the horse's mouth if possible, and especially to know the context.  After all, it's practically a running joke on this board that Brian changes his mind every five minutes and is endlessly contradicting himself.  Was it before or after he sang the gorgeous 1967 version of "Surf's Up" from the box set?

I've never heard that he "agreed with Jack Rieley that he would put SU on the next album', is that corroborated?  thought that he strongly resistyed its inclusion, only to spontaneously come out of his bedroom and help with the tag when they were recording it. @Cam: assuming he was ambivalent about VDP's lyrics, do you think that position evolved from late '66 to early '67? He seemed very enthusiastic about the SU lyrics for example, at least at the beginning, even late in '67 singing them with great passion on the Wild Honey-era solo version. Perhaps he liked them personally but eventually came to believe that they weren't right for the group?

I'm not Cam (obviously), but I don't think Brian was ever against stuff like "Surf's Up". One has to remember the quote from a 1968 rock 'n roll special, where he said something like "some people like to hang onto certain things and ... just as their own little songs that they've written almost for themselves. And a lot of times, you know, a person will write and will realize later that they're ... it's not commercial, you know, but what they've written is nice for them". So I think maybe the late 1967 recording of "Surf's Up" was just that for Brian. Just a little something recorded for posterity. It was his song that he was proud of, and he just wanted to keep it to himself. However, obviously by 1971 it was obvious the group needed a certain something to help them gain some momentum commercially, and he agreed with Jack Rieley that he would put "Surf's Up" on the next album. And I'm happy he ended up making good on that agreement.

[MBE]

I'd date the beginning of Brian's decline as a cultural force and relevant pop producer right at the beginning of Smiley Smile sessions. But as a musician? No way! In my opinion, he just kept getting better after that. He started his decline sometime after Sunflower. Maybe after recording 'Til I Die, even.

Right with you.