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Author Topic: Would Surfs Up have been the Greatest?  (Read 41386 times)
Jukka
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« Reply #75 on: August 16, 2012, 11:55:47 PM »

Why is SDT so hated by so many? Granted it's nothing special, just a nice basic rocker. How many people dislike it just because Brian Wilson has gone on record as saying he does not like it?

It's not that... Personally I don't hate it. It's just that the lyrics try to be politically conscious so bad it hurts. Lame attempt to be hip and current. If they had done it with the original Riot in Cell Block 9 lyrics, I'd have absolutelu nothing against it. 'Cos everyone has to admit, musically it really rocks. And Mike's lead has some nice screams in it.
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« Reply #76 on: August 17, 2012, 01:52:35 AM »

Can't say I agree there - "Susie Cincinnati" and "When Girls Get Together" never did much of anything for me (although maybe I haven't given them the proper chance), and "My Solution" is very cool/amusing but would've been better as some kind of standalone 45 or something than on any album. Just me, though. As I've said before, two albums in '71 wouldn't have been a bad thing at all, imo.

I guess that's the thing with fluff. I never much cared for SC either, but after listening to 15 Big Ones a few too many times it started to grow on me.
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Jeff
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« Reply #77 on: August 17, 2012, 02:28:02 AM »

If Surf's Up is unlistenable (DAAAAMN DAWWWWG), I'd be curious to hear what you think of... well, almost all their other albums, but especially their 70s, 80s, 90s, and 2012s output.

Obviously everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I'm not sure how someone could be into this band and deem an album like Surf's Up "unlistenable". Pretty extreme word, I guess, and I'm not sure if you're wildly exaggerating and you think the tracklist could use a couple minor changes or if you really find the album unlistenable.

My point with the steak & sh*t reference is that even if you have great songs (Surf's Up, 'Til I Die) and good songs (Tree, LPR, Feel Flows, Disney Girls), the album is unlistenable if you include the truly awful (Feet, SDT).  Sure, you can skip those songs, but then you're not listening to the album.

OTOH, if you sub 4OJ and WIBNTLA for Feet and SDT, you have a stellar album.
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Dunderhead
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« Reply #78 on: August 17, 2012, 02:38:26 AM »

I think that it's easy to see where Carl was coming from during that era.

He was the youngest brother after all, it was hard for him to take responsibility for the group. He looked up to Brian and Dennis, he took his cues from them, he counted on them looking out for him. In 1971 though, neither of them seemed willing or able to seize the reins, and filling in for his brothers must have, at times, been incredibly demanding.

Carl has a real humility about him, a modesty that really shows how he felt about the whole thing. I get the sense that he just considered himself blessed to be a part it all. He shows up on so many SMiLE songs, and you can tell that he greatly respected Brian during that whole period. Completing the SMiLE songs on 20/20 and Sunflower and Surf's Up was his baby, and I honestly wouldn't be that surprised if he was the one that kept Heroes and Villains on the 70s-era setlists.
Even later on Love You and Adult/Child Carl seems to be right by his brother's side, saying "Wow, that's really great Bri..." and you can imagine him, after Landy left the first time, calling Brian up, "Hey Bri, you wanna go work on some of those new songs today? Not today? Alright...".

That's how I imagine it anyway...

On Surf's Up I just think that Carl really believed in what he was doing. He didn't kick WIBNTLA off the album just to be a jerk, I think he was doing what he thought was best for the group. No matter how great Dennis' song was, I think Carl was right in insisting on the inclusion of the title track, it was his way of saying "here, this is what we're about, this is who The Beach Boys are". He loved that song, he might have even thought it was the best song the band had ever done.
He really believed in The Beach Boys, he had to, he was their leader whether he thought himself so or not.

...man, that was unexpectedly emotional to write. Carl was a really wonderful guy wasn't he
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Cabinessenceking
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« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2012, 03:25:03 AM »

Why is SDT so hated by so many? Granted it's nothing special, just a nice basic rocker. How many people dislike it just because Brian Wilson has gone on record as saying he does not like it?

because it sounds very different from the rest of the record, it is basically a cover of Riot in Cell Block 9 and it took the place of WIBNTLA and 4thOJ (albeit it didnt displace them in the first place!)
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Catbirdman
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« Reply #80 on: August 17, 2012, 07:25:47 AM »

I don't resemble that remark, not that it's anyone's business (and yes, I can take a joke, if it's funny). While I was engrossed in composing my comment, I reflected just long enough to think that the acronym had an odd similarity to afflictions of the unmentionables, and quickly thought "is this correct?" Too quickly, as it turns out, and thanks so much for tactfully pointing it out. No harm meant, I trust.Smiley

OF COURSE no harm meant. Holy schnikeys man. It wasn't a criticism, and it had absolutley nothing to do with you personally. In fact I didn't even look at the screen name to see who it was. I just saw STD and giggled. Bathroom humor you know.
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I. Spaceman
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« Reply #81 on: August 17, 2012, 07:29:05 AM »

Why is SDT so hated by so many? Granted it's nothing special, just a nice basic rocker. How many people dislike it just because Brian Wilson has gone on record as saying he does not like it?

because it sounds very different from the rest of the record

HOW DARE THEY?
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« Reply #82 on: August 17, 2012, 09:18:48 AM »

Fishmonk has an excellent point.
Carl may have just been protecting the album, Dennis had his spot on Sunflower, and that
Still failed regardless, but including Surfs Up helped big time.
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« Reply #83 on: August 17, 2012, 02:44:04 PM »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Andrew state that it was an argument over placement of the songs? And that it wasn't Carl throwing the songs off, but Dennis pulling them off in reaction to not getting the placement(s) he'd been lobbying for?

My earlier statement about dissension about what would appear on an LP clearly omitted several key earlier instances--"Hang On To Your Ego" and its lyrics, and, of course, pretty much the entire Smile LP. Unless folks have details concerning the band's interactions with respect to the songs considered for 20/20, it seems that Surf''s Up is the first instance of the band as a "democracy" finding itself at loggerheads over what they would put on the record.
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Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again
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« Reply #84 on: August 17, 2012, 05:09:54 PM »

Once again: what is wrong with trying to be political and topical in 1971? Because Mike was bald and Neil Young wasn't? That makes it such an embarrassing attempt? Has anyone even actually listened to these offending lyrics? If Mike was trying sooooooo hard to be hip and "in" why would he tell kids to stay the hell AWAY from a riot/demonstration?Huh
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« Reply #85 on: August 17, 2012, 05:56:53 PM »

Once again: what is wrong with trying to be political and topical in 1971? Because Mike was bald and Neil Young wasn't? That makes it such an embarrassing attempt? Has anyone even actually listened to these offending lyrics? If Mike was trying sooooooo hard to be hip and "in" why would he tell kids to stay the hell AWAY from a riot/demonstration?Huh

could be sarcastic in the same way that Okie From Muskogee was hijacked by the counterculture, after all they did have an abstract sense of humour...
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« Reply #86 on: August 17, 2012, 08:36:09 PM »

The problem is that Mike's lyrics aren't really political. He wrote them the same way that he wrote lyrics about surfing, it's all one big put on with him. He's not writing any of those songs because he wants to express himself or his own beliefs, he's writing them in order to sell as many records as possible. His lyrics are designed to appeal to what he thinks the counterculture wants.
If you listen to concert bootlegs from the 70's era, he's contemptibly and transparently trying to ingratiate himself with the audience. "We wrote this song when we were all stoned and high man, it was groovy", he doesn't take any of it seriously.
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« Reply #87 on: August 17, 2012, 10:43:45 PM »

I don't resemble that remark, not that it's anyone's business (and yes, I can take a joke, if it's funny). While I was engrossed in composing my comment, I reflected just long enough to think that the acronym had an odd similarity to afflictions of the unmentionables, and quickly thought "is this correct?" Too quickly, as it turns out, and thanks so much for tactfully pointing it out. No harm meant, I trust.Smiley

OF COURSE no harm meant. Holy schnikeys man. It wasn't a criticism, and it had absolutley nothing to do with you personally. In fact I didn't even look at the screen name to see who it was. I just saw STD and giggled. Bathroom humor you know.

Peace, Cat. Didn't mean to be reactionary, a bit sensitive lately for various reasons.
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« Reply #88 on: August 18, 2012, 08:33:38 AM »

The problem is that Mike's lyrics aren't really political. He wrote them the same way that he wrote lyrics about surfing, it's all one big put on with him. He's not writing any of those songs because he wants to express himself or his own beliefs, he's writing them in order to sell as many records as possible. His lyrics are designed to appeal to what he thinks the counterculture wants.
If you listen to concert bootlegs from the 70's era, he's contemptibly and transparently trying to ingratiate himself with the audience. "We wrote this song when we were all stoned and high man, it was groovy", he doesn't take any of it seriously.

His lyrics about surfing are great, as well. Professional songwriting isn't just about expressing one's own beliefs, that was a lie sold along with all those terrible singer-songwriter records of the early 70's. Songwriting is a job, and one need not have the exact experiences expressed in the lyrics to do a good job with them. I doubt Robbie Robertson really had personal sympathies with the South side of the Civil War conflict, but The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down is pretty incredible.
Mike Love was thinking the counterculture wanted to hear lyrics that told them to stay away from violent conflict at political demonstrations? Seriously? You really don't think that WAS his personal belief, expressed in those lyrics? Right there, he is stating something very serious, but taking the edge off of it by placing it within the context of a good-time 50's rocker.
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« Reply #89 on: August 18, 2012, 02:17:15 PM »

I dislike Student Demonstration Time because I find it to be an unexciting blues performance.  The lyrics could be brilliant as can be and I still wouldn't want it on the album unless the music changed with it.  Don't get me wrong I don't think it's terrible or anything, but at a time when I love so much of their material, released and unreleased, this one underwhelms me especially in the context of the album where I love most of the songs.
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« Reply #90 on: August 18, 2012, 03:09:22 PM »

I don't think i'd like it on any album - I am not a Mike Love basher, and I don't dislike it based on just the lyrics - the whole vibe of the song is abrasive. Like a harsh toke, man. I can't even describe it that well, and I'm sorry for that, it's just like those radio commercials that shout at you. Don't need it, don't want it. I'm sure at a concert it would have went down a lot differently, and I can respect that it got them some FM cred, it just doesn't do it for me at all.
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« Reply #91 on: August 18, 2012, 04:55:01 PM »

The album is eclecticism pushed to the limit. Unity never breaks, for some reason, as it probably does in 20/20.

 I only listened to the album through the 1990-something reissue. I don't know if the sound was improved in subsequent reissues, but for me the main problem is of a sonic nature. So much unlike its predecessor. And I'd add that part of the reason some people repell SDT has to do with the mastering: on my CD, at least, it sticks out probably because it is mastered louder than the rest.
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« Reply #92 on: August 18, 2012, 06:24:48 PM »

The album is eclecticism pushed to the limit. Unity never breaks, for some reason, as it probably does in 20/20.

I think that this is really a virtue of the production.
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« Reply #93 on: August 19, 2012, 04:01:48 AM »

I´ve always thought this would´ve been a great line-up and would´ve satisfied all band members creativity (well, maybe not Mike´s...)

1. Don´t Go Near The Water
2. Long Promised Road
3. Take A Load Off Your Feet
4. Disney Girls
5. 4th Of July

6. Feel Flows
7. Lookin´At Tomorrow
8. A Day In The Life Of A Tree
9. Til I Die
10. Wouldn´t It Be Nice (To Live Again)
11. Surf´s Up

Yes, the relatively throwaway TALOYF is still there, but it´s harmless really... Student Demonstration Time is the real stinker (almost entirely, in my opinion, due to it´s hateful rightwing lyrics). 4th Of July works brilliantly coming after Disney Girls and as a side 1 closer. Meanwhile, WIBNTLA comes after Til I Die - as Dennis wanted - and Surf´s Up still closes the album - as Carl wanted.
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« Reply #94 on: August 19, 2012, 04:56:46 AM »

It really is depressing to think that this potentially great album was dragged into the horror which is SDT due to disagreement between two loving brothers over something as trivial as tracklisting... I really understand Jack Reily when it comes to that.
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« Reply #95 on: August 19, 2012, 07:11:11 AM »

 Violin

Couldn't find the yawning smiley.
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« Reply #96 on: August 19, 2012, 08:31:48 AM »

Student Demonstration Time is the real stinker (almost entirely, in my opinion, due to it´s hateful rightwing lyrics).

 Please elaborate re "hateful right wing lyrics."  It may be the album's weakest track, but like Mick on "Street Fighting Man", Mike seems to lament the trials and tribulations of the day while ultimately telling people the best option is to steer clear of the violence. Is that hateful and/or right wing?
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« Reply #97 on: August 19, 2012, 10:23:26 AM »

Only if Mike attempts it!

The insane Mike bias is quite stupifyingly obvious and tired. Rock n Roll is littered with silly songsa and exist simply because they rock! Is SDT one such example? Perhaps! We can talk about SGt Pepper being riddled with bad writing all we want but we'd be denying the simple power such a track like Getting Better carries simply because it feels so good and Ringo and Paul really swing on it. Such details can make a lazy writing job just as important and "worthy" as a not quite as exciting yet much more portentous track such as I'm Waiting For The Day.  I think we get too hung up on who wrote what versus how the damn thing simply sounds/feels.
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« Reply #98 on: August 19, 2012, 11:01:39 AM »

Altho Mike Love's reputation has undergone a nice period of rehabilitation of late... one so effective that hell, even I think he's a cuddly, slightly dastardly grandpa with a flair for pinky rings but is ultimately harmless.... sirs, it's just going too far to claim that SDT isn't anything more than a hopelessly lame, instantly dated rewrite in an attempt to be "political" that presents an apathetic solution of... not doing anything. Stay inside. Tin soldiers and Nixon's coming, ah what's on the teevee? I might as well not bother expressing myself or anything, I might get hurt! It's grating. It's like a car salesman dropping hipster lingo.

There comes a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part, you can't even passively take part, and you've got to put your bodies back in bed, upon all the apparatus, wrapping a comforter tightly around you....

I would've loved just a straightforward cover, nice change of pace in the mix and the live versions are awfully fun!

And if I haven't pissed off the person reading this, allow me to offend across the entire fan spectrum by stating that I really love FEET and love playing it. I like it more than 4th of July. I may even like it more than that amazingly wonderful unreleased track we may finally get.

(strolls off singin' "He's a rebel and he'll never ever be any good, He's a rebel 'cause he never ever does what he should...")
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Jeff
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« Reply #99 on: August 19, 2012, 11:19:37 AM »

Only if Mike attempts it!

The insane Mike bias is quite stupifyingly obvious and tired. Rock n Roll is littered with silly songsa and exist simply because they rock! Is SDT one such example? Perhaps! We can talk about SGt Pepper being riddled with bad writing all we want but we'd be denying the simple power such a track like Getting Better carries simply because it feels so good and Ringo and Paul really swing on it. Such details can make a lazy writing job just as important and "worthy" as a not quite as exciting yet much more portentous track such as I'm Waiting For The Day.  I think we get too hung up on who wrote what versus how the damn thing simply sounds/feels.

What's stupifyingly obvious and tired are your ridiculous efforts to prop up a lousy track by setting up strawmen and attacking the motives of people who don't like what you like.

Look, SDT is obnoxious, boring, grating and derivative all in one--a rare feat.  It's a track that is routinely skipped, and not because it's by Mike.  Some of the people who hate SDT proposed replacing it with Big Sur--a Mike track.  There's also been plenty scorn for Feet, and that's not Mike.

Just cut the cr*p and accept the fact that SDT is a massive FAIL on an album that could have been a big success.
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