Would Surfs Up have been the Greatest?

[pixletwin]

With all those dark colors it, if it was a victory-by-survival, the mood isn't a "triumphant" one to my eyes. If he survived he was the only one. With that in mind, I am not sure I would think of it as triumphant by any sense of the word either.

[I. Spaceman]

Personally, I love the dark nature of the Smiley and Surf's covers, I think they accurately summarise the overall mood of the records, and I don't think they should be "explained", no more than any other art should be. Look at the cover, listen to the album, it will be understood as well as it was meant to be. I do think the Surf's cover accurately reflects that era of the band much more than the utterly forced Sunflower jacket, which might as well be a Peter Paul and Mary cover, and was probably designed by the same person.

I agree with you in that sense about the Smiley cover, which is perfect for that album!

But do you see there is a defeated quality to Surf's Up, a type of wounded resignation, that is well illustrated by the hanged head of the rider on the cover?

The rider is bowed but not broken, with armament of war, under his tired arm.  He is alive, not lifelessly carried by the horse.  He is weary, but not broken, as is his horse.  The return from war, is the triumph.  The survival.  This is music of survival, not defeat.  JMHO

I agree on certain tracks, such as Long Promised Road, Lookin' At Tomorrow, etc. But Til I Die and A Day In the Life Of A Tree aren't really triumphant songs, in any regard. And the person who has been to war is never truly the same. The young, hopeful idealist does go down to defeat by the very nature of the battle.

[filledeplage]

With all those dark colors it, if it was a victory-by-survival, the mood isn't a "triumphant" one to my eyes. If he survived he was the only one. With that in mind, I am not sure I would think of it as "victorious" by any sense of the word either.

That is a viable interpretation. I wonder how war vets would feel about it...

But, I view survival as triumph.   We don't know that he was the only one.  

Rest and time are restorative.

It is interesting, at any rate.   And a great cover.  My sole issue was that there was no artist info.  It leaves people to guess.  It was a teachable moment.  

[I. Spaceman]

But, I view survival as triumph.  

Well, that's true, as well. I'd much rather be a cork on the ocean, than a bottle in the gutter.

[filledeplage]

But, I view survival as triumph.  

Well, that's true, as well. I'd much rather be a cork on the ocean, than a bottle in the gutter.

Yeah, baby!!!!

Cork Floats!!! 

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

As per the people saying Dennis at his best < Brian at his best

One song equals it IMO, and that's WIBNTLA, the original was apparently better and longer (2x!) then the AMCB version which is already a classic.

[I. Spaceman]

I think many Dennis tunes are as good as the best of Brian. Really, it is just the quantity of work, and the diversity of it, that puts Brian above Dennis. But Brian is also above Lennon and McCartney, so that is no slate on Dennis.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

I think many Dennis tunes are as good as the best of Brian. Really, it is just the quantity of work, and the diversity of it, that puts Brian above Dennis. But Brian is also above Lennon and McCartney, so that is no slate on Dennis.

I agree 100% with this, had Dennis had written almost 1000 songs, He'd no doubt have written a lot more amazing music.

[runnersdialzero]

Didn't we just have this thread a week ago?

"Feet" is a lot of fun and it saddens me that so many people trash it or somehow think big bad Carl said, "f*** you, Dennis, your songs are shitty and it's either them or 'Feet' and I'm choosing 'Feet'. One of the more popular photos of you later in life will make you look like a muppet, ha ha ha (little do I know I'll have a bad mullet later in life oh my god no)."

I'm not going to rant for five days over a song I've never actually heard and why Carl is an idiot for not including said song I've never heard. Yes, the damn thing needs to come out already, but I'm not sure why people get so up in arms over it not making the album without ever having heard the original version. We know why it was left off and I think both Carl and Dennis were justified for what they thought was right. Carl led the band, Carl won, Carl ensured what is possibly their best song was released and that it closed the album, which it should have done with any album it was on. Dennis had several other opportunities to release "Live Again" and it never happened.

Surf's Up the album is what it is and has been for forty years. Not without flaws, but then the same can be said for basically any Beach Boys album before or after it. All Beach Boys albums are benefited by their "fluff" (they're the Gosh Darn Beach Boys, lest we forget), most albums fall flat when it's long serious-as-a-heart-attack song after long serious-as-a-heart-attack song (imo) as most people want Surf's Up to be, for some reason. I'm not sure why this one gets picked apart and criticized before all their other albums, or if I have any clue, it's to do with a song given a world of hype that no song in the world could live up to.

tl;dr chill out d00dz, Surf's Up is a fine album as is, endlessly arguing over the tracklist order of a forty year old album is hurr durr, and we'll likely have "Live Again" soon enough.

I think many Dennis tunes are as good as the best of Brian. Really, it is just the quantity of work, and the diversity of it, that puts Brian above Dennis. But Brian is also above Lennon and McCartney, so that is no slate on Dennis.

I agree 100% with this, had Dennis had written almost 1000 songs, He'd no doubt have written a lot more amazing music.

Maybe, but maybe not.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Can't we just leave any of these damn albums alone??? Or, how about we replace God Only Knows with Trombone Dixie on Pet Sounds???

Surf's Up is a perfect album and one of the greatest in rock history!

Take off the Al stuff and even SDT and the whole thing would just drag. I love Dennis,Carl, Brian but I want my Al and Mike (and Bruce) too, dammit!!!

I don't think 4th Of July is any better than TALOYF or LAT and Carl sounds drunk on it anyway. San Miguel is a good stomper, but too much Carl in the same range/vibe is cool and all, but it's not The Beach Boys. As for WIBNTLA: I'm not sacrificing songs I love for a song I've never heard....

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

The reason we keep picking it apart is because it had the most unused potential of almost any album in history.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

But why dwell on that if the album that exists is awesome???

[SMiLE Brian]

Surf's up vibe of the worn out BBs makes it great no matter what songs are on it.

[Mike's Beard]

Surf's Up is their best album period. A few Dennis songs added to the mix would have only been gravy.

[Bicyclerider]

Can't we just leave any of these damn albums alone??? Or, how about we replace God Only Knows with Trombone Dixie on Pet Sounds???

Surf's Up is a perfect album and one of the greatest in rock history!

Take off the Al stuff and even SDT and the whole thing would just drag. I love Dennis,Carl, Brian but I want my Al and Mike (and Bruce) too, dammit!!!

I don't think 4th Of July is any better than TALOYF or LAT and Carl sounds drunk on it anyway. San Miguel is a good stomper, but too much Carl in the same range/vibe is cool and all, but it's not The Beach Boys. As for WIBNTLA: I'm not sacrificing songs I love for a song I've never heard....

Perfect album?  Hardly.  Anyone who thinks Student Demonstration Time is perfect has a very different definition of perfection than most.  I think with Dennis songs San Miguel, Lady, WIBNTLA, Sound of Free AND a great Mike Love song to replace the annoying SDT - and that's the 4/4 Big Sur which is superior IMO to the waltz version released on Holland - you can definitely construct a better album sequence.  I would drop Don't Go Near the Water, I agree the lyrics and singing are wretched despite a brilliant musical arrangement.  So drop two and add four of the five I listed - I'd probably go with Lady, Sound of Free, WIBNTLA and Big Sur. 

[EgoHanger1966]

The thing about these fantasy lineups (they are fun and it is interesting to read other people's choices), is that I end up always thinking about the other albums it impacts. If I put the 4/4 Big Sur on my lineup of SU (and I agree, it is the superior version), then my lineup of Holland would be really lacking, and it messes up that album's continuity.

[I. Spaceman]

Anyone who thinks Student Demonstration Time is perfect has a very different definition of perfection than most.  

Cool, thanks for that.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

Imagine if even just WIBNTLA was on it...

Brian's best, and Denny's best

[Dove Nested Towers]

But why dwell on that if the album that exists is awesome???

Revisionist history is a perfectly valid exercise IMO. George Martin has said that one of his greatest regrets as Beatles producer was not including Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane on Sgt. Pepper's, presumably in place of Lovely Rita and When I'm Sixty-Four (he diplomatically didn't specify). TALOYF is charming but somewhat insipid (again IMO) & STD is topical, pandering, completely unremarkable mediocrity. The substitution of the two majestic alternatives under discussion (which fit in PERFECTLY with the mood of the rest of the album), in an alternate universe, would have been an undeniable improvement, to put it mildly, and lifted the album into the absolute stratosphere.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

I love that GM quote, because the inclusion of those two songs would have made Sgt. Pepper beter then Pet Sounds without a doubt. I love the Beach Boys, but an album with NO BAD TRACKS AND 4 OF THE GREATEST SONGS EVER WRITTEN IS AMAZING.


Oh... wait... that is Pet Sounds

[Mike's Beard]

People should brace themselves for the slim possibility that WIBNTLA may be another "Make it Good". Lots of expert opinions on a song that hasn't been heard.

[Jukka]

The thing about these fantasy lineups (they are fun and it is interesting to read other people's choices), is that I end up always thinking about the other albums it impacts. If I put the 4/4 Big Sur on my lineup of SU (and I agree, it is the superior version), then my lineup of Holland would be really lacking, and it messes up that album's continuity.

So true. And another thing is, deep in my heart I really don't want to lose any tracks. Sure, SDT isn't that great, but it's a Beach Boys track, and it has it's place. A funny little curiosity, yet one more aspect of this strange, beautiful and off band.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

So true. And another thing is, deep in my heart I really don't want to lose any tracks. Sure, SDT isn't that great, but it's a Beach Boys track, and it has it's place. A funny little curiosity, yet one more aspect of this strange, beautiful and off band.

+1

[Dunderhead]

Didn't we just have this thread a week ago?

"Feet" is a lot of fun and it saddens me that so many people trash it or somehow think big bad Carl said, "f*** you, Dennis, your songs are sh*tty and it's either them or 'Feet' and I'm choosing 'Feet'. One of the more popular photos of you later in life will make you look like a muppet, ha ha ha (little do I know I'll have a bad mullet later in life oh my god no)."

I'm not going to rant for five days over a song I've never actually heard and why Carl is an idiot for not including said song I've never heard. Yes, the damn thing needs to come out already, but I'm not sure why people get so up in arms over it not making the album without ever having heard the original version. We know why it was left off and I think both Carl and Dennis were justified for what they thought was right. Carl led the band, Carl won, Carl ensured what is possibly their best song was released and that it closed the album, which it should have done with any album it was on. Dennis had several other opportunities to release "Live Again" and it never happened.

Surf's Up the album is what it is and has been for forty years. Not without flaws, but then the same can be said for basically any Beach Boys album before or after it. All Beach Boys albums are benefited by their "fluff" (they're the Gosh Darn Beach Boys, lest we forget), most albums fall flat when it's long serious-as-a-heart-attack song after long serious-as-a-heart-attack song (imo) as most people want Surf's Up to be, for some reason. I'm not sure why this one gets picked apart and criticized before all their other albums, or if I have any clue, it's to do with a song given a world of hype that no song in the world could live up to.

tl;dr chill out d00dz, Surf's Up is a fine album as is, endlessly arguing over the tracklist order of a forty year old album is hurr durr, and we'll likely have "Live Again" soon enough.

I think many Dennis tunes are as good as the best of Brian. Really, it is just the quantity of work, and the diversity of it, that puts Brian above Dennis. But Brian is also above Lennon and McCartney, so that is no slate on Dennis.

I agree 100% with this, had Dennis had written almost 1000 songs, He'd no doubt have written a lot more amazing music.

Maybe, but maybe not.

Being able to criticize objectively is important however, asking which things about an album work and which things don't, how things could have been improved or done in a way to better suite the albums' own objectives, are ways that all of us as listeners can increase our overall enjoyment of the music. This album is done and in print, there's no reason you have to be defensive, nobody is going to take your copy of away.
I do agree with you however about the "fluff", those songs always seem to end up adding that little something extra. Surf's Up is an exception to that rule unfortunately. The fluff just isn't good, not even by Beach Boys standards. Susie Cincinnati, When Girls Get Together, even My Solution would have been made better inclusions in my opinion. In the context of the "darker" songs, WGGT could have fared a little better than it did later on.
Dennis also had two nice tracks in California Slide and Sound Of Free, the latter of which would have made an excellent opener I think...

[Micha]

nothing can follow Surf's up, at least on the same vinyl side.

I disagree with that. My own SMiLE compilations end SU->Prayer->GV. Sounds great.