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« Reply #400 on: November 22, 2016, 08:37:43 AM »

Just different cultural perspectives.
Where I live, food traditions are VERY important.
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« Reply #401 on: November 22, 2016, 09:18:44 AM »

You mean Earth?
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« Reply #402 on: November 22, 2016, 06:47:41 PM »

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« Reply #403 on: November 22, 2016, 08:16:38 PM »

Curb your sarcasm. It doesn't add to discussion at hand. NOLA, this is where we disagree. Care to explain in what way food traditions are "very" important? In my view, it's funny to set the rules of what to cook during holidays. It's just food,

No, no, it's not "just food" down here in New Orleans. Tradition is so very important - Mardi Gras, visiting and placing flowers on graves on All Saints Day (November 1), and both Mardi Gras and All Saints Day are city holidays.
Food is taken very seriously here. We roll our collective eyes when people in other parts of the country try to do their impression of our cuisine.
A few months ago the Disney company posted a video for gumbo. There were gasps, guffaws, etc when it showed the dish being created. Oh my goodness, they didn't make a roux! How can you have gumbo without a roux?! (A roux is mixing flour with oil or butter, as it heats constantly stirring until it gets to the desired color, usually a medium to dark brown. The roux is the foundation by which the gumbo is built on),

As for Thanksgiving, turkey isn't necessarily the obligatory meat. Ham, chicken are also used. But there are two dishes that are definitely part of the tradition - sweet potato casserole and stuffed mirlitons (a type of squash).
Food is constantly on our minds and in our conversations (and in our guts too - most of us can stand to lose some weight!)
In other places, people eat to live. Here, we live to eat.
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« Reply #404 on: November 22, 2016, 09:14:57 PM »

Quote
No, no, it's not "just food" down here in New Orleans.
Appreciate the joke but I'm sure you got me that by saying "it's just food" I meant that cooking in one's household shoudn't be very important on national level. What you say about Mardi Gras etc. is wholly different tradition. OK, food is taken very seriously there. But you didn't explain why. Let's say there wouldn't be tradition what to eat at holidays & everybody cooked what they like - then what? Would it be that bad? Surely not, they'd roll with it, the tradition would be within the family (specialties that pass from past generation to the new) which is fine. But make it national - I don't know, it's puzzling.

Quote
In other places, people eat to live. Here, we live to eat.
In chatting with other Smiley Smiler, I said "animals eat to live. People live to eat". Smiley
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« Reply #405 on: November 23, 2016, 02:10:11 AM »

Hello,
I'm up just for a moment to let the dog out, then will go back to bed for a couple of hours. Then will have a long day, going early to the grocery store to get lots of things such as apples, pecans, mirlitons, coffee. Then a nurse will be coming to check my Mom. Family will be coming in later this morning - they drove in from Jacksonville, Florida, which is a little under 1000 km from here.
I will answer your query about "tradition" but will be when I have more time later on today or tonight.

It's good to know that you too believe in living to eat! :-)
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« Reply #406 on: November 23, 2016, 03:21:47 AM »

Where I live, food traditions are VERY important.

You mean Earth?

Curb your sarcasm. It doesn't add to discussion at hand.

I rather think the good captain was deadly serious. Perhaps you should apologize to him.
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« Reply #407 on: November 23, 2016, 05:50:20 AM »

Where I live, food traditions are VERY important.

You mean Earth?

Curb your sarcasm. It doesn't add to discussion at hand.

I rather think the good captain was deadly serious. Perhaps you should apologize to him.

Strangely enough, I was indeed being serious, and it absolutely adds to the discussion at hand. I'll elaborate, since it appears necessary. It's fine if someone doesn't care about food traditions, but that person is in a tiny, tiny minority of humanity. Food traditions are some of the oldest and deepest kinds of traditions across the entire world. They are a part of virtually every ritual: marriage, religious rites, sex, death, harvest, solstices, etc., and always have been. So outliers are of course welcome to their fringe views, a little deference or humility toward the vast majority of the history of mankind on the issue mightn't be out of line.

For example, while I like food traditions (just because I love cooking) I don't care about holidays. Not at all. I think they're stupid. I am not sure there was ever a Jesus and certainly don't think he rose from the dead or was born at the winter solstice, and so Easter and Christmas are nonsense to me. I'm a little sickened by nationalism, so the 4th of July is out. Halloween combines religion and commercialism, and the food is just candy anyway, so meh. Even Thanksgiving, which I love both from the food tradition aspect and the concept, is tarnished because I'm not especially fond of family gatherings. And so on, you get the point. But I fully realize that pretty much everyone else thinks otherwise. So I keep my snide remarks to a minimum and don't often call holidays stupid when discussing them with people who are fans. Because that's rude.

All that said, when I feel an injection of sarcasm would be appropriate, I'll feel free to be the syringe.
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« Reply #408 on: November 23, 2016, 07:19:31 AM »

Quote
Strangely enough, I was indeed being serious, and it absolutely adds to the discussion at hand. I'll elaborate, since it appears necessary. It's fine if someone doesn't care about food traditions, but that person is in a tiny, tiny minority of humanity. Food traditions are some of the oldest and deepest kinds of traditions across the entire world. They are a part of virtually every ritual: marriage, religious rites, sex, death, harvest, solstices, etc., and always have been.


Quote
For example, while I like food traditions (just because I love cooking) I don't care about holidays. Not at all. I think they're stupid. I am not sure there was ever a Jesus and certainly don't think he rose from the dead or was born at the winter solstice, and so Easter and Christmas are nonsense to me. I'm a little sickened by nationalism, so the 4th of July is out. Halloween combines religion and commercialism, and the food is just candy anyway, so meh. Even Thanksgiving, which I love both from the food tradition aspect and the concept, is tarnished because I'm not especially fond of family gatherings.

There is a lot of guilt tied up with food-based/family traditions as well, at least in my experience, to add to the mix. I don't hate food traditions per se, but everyone's idea of how it should be are so completely subjective that it's hard to walk away from a holiday meal without some kind of physical or mental discomfort. And I'm just talking about the food, forget family drama and politics.

For instance, this Christmas my husband I are traveling to Newfoundland to stay with his family. They're great people, so hospitable and generous. But there's a dark flipside to it. My husband and I refer time spent with his parents as the Food Olympics, because every meal is an event, in which it is impossible to win the gold medal. There's enough food to feed an army, with only 5 people sitting around the table. More food than anyone can possibly eat without making themselves sick. Not just at dinner. Breakfast and lunch too. We try to get out of the house all day to avoid it, and save ourselves for dinner. But when you don't ask for seconds or thirds, the disappointment from my mother-in-law is palpable. That's how she shows her love. If you don't gain 5 lbs per meal, you didn't get enough of her love. It gets emotional for me. I'm not a big eater. I have food sensitivities, but I hate making excuses, so I'll often ignore my better judgment and try to please her, which ends up with me sick and her sad that I'm sick. And then trying to make me feel better by offering me pie.

Nevermind what my husband and his brother went through their whole lives, dealing with the mother/love/food/guilt scenario every damn day. So I'm thankful it's relegated to the holidays for me. Can't say I'm looking forward to it though. I am looking forward to my father-in-law's homemade blueberry wine though, that stuff's the bomb! And it's a tradition I can always get behind, haha.


« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 07:37:17 AM by SCaroline Z » Logged
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« Reply #409 on: November 23, 2016, 07:50:51 AM »

.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 07:54:14 AM by SCaroline Z » Logged
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« Reply #410 on: November 23, 2016, 07:51:39 AM »


Quote
Strangely enough, I was indeed being serious, and it absolutely adds to the discussion at hand. I'll elaborate, since it appears necessary. It's fine if someone doesn't care about food traditions, but that person is in a tiny, tiny minority of humanity. Food traditions are some of the oldest and deepest kinds of traditions across the entire world. They are a part of virtually every ritual: marriage, religious rites, sex, death, harvest, solstices, etc., and always have been.


Quote
For example, while I like food traditions (just because I love cooking) I don't care about holidays. Not at all. I think they're stupid. I am not sure there was ever a Jesus and certainly don't think he rose from the dead or was born at the winter solstice, and so Easter and Christmas are nonsense to me. I'm a little sickened by nationalism, so the 4th of July is out. Halloween combines religion and commercialism, and the food is just candy anyway, so meh. Even Thanksgiving, which I love both from the food tradition aspect and the concept, is tarnished because I'm not especially fond of family gatherings.

There is a lot of guilt tied up with food-based/family traditions as well, at least in my experience, to add to the mix. I don't hate food traditions per se, but everyone's idea of how it should be are so completely subjective that it's hard to walk away from a holiday meal without some kind of physical or mental discomfort. And I'm just talking about the food, forget family drama and politics.

For instance, this Christmas my husband I are traveling to Newfoundland to stay with his family. They're great people, so hospitable and generous. But there's a dark flipside to it. My husband and I refer time spent with his parents as the Food Olympics, because every meal is an event, in which it is impossible to win the gold medal. There's enough food to feed an army, with only 5 people sitting around the table. More food than anyone can possibly eat without making themselves sick. Not just at dinner. Breakfast and lunch too. We try to get out of the house all day to avoid it, and save ourselves for dinner. But when you don't ask for seconds or thirds, the disappointment from my mother-in-law is palpable. That's how she shows her love. If you don't gain 5 lbs per meal, you didn't get enough of her love. It gets emotional for me. I'm not a big eater. I have food sensitivities, but I hate making excuses, so I'll often ignore my better judgment and try to please her, which ends up with me sick and her sad that I'm sick. And then trying to make me feel better by offering me pie.

Nevermind what my husband and his brother went through their whole lives, dealing with the mother/love/food/guilt scenario every damn day. So I'm thankful it's relegated to the holidays for me. Can't say I'm looking forward to it though. I am looking forward to my father-in-law's homemade blueberry wine though, that stuff's the bomb! And it's a tradition I can always get behind, haha.

EDIT: I don't want to sound ungrateful. I love food, and I love my husband's family, and how generous they have been with me. My mother-in-law is a wonderful person and a fantastic cook. I just want to underscore the point that food and associated traditions are so subjective, everyone's experiences with them are different. I simply didn't grow up with the same kind of food traditions that my husband did, and even after almost 10 years it's still hard to digest (pun intended Smiley ).
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 07:53:24 AM by SCaroline Z » Logged
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« Reply #411 on: November 23, 2016, 07:54:20 AM »

SCarolineZ: oh my goodness, i can relate! Thanks for sharing. There's also a wave of veganism affecting the younger element of my family, threatening the survival of traditions. Tomorrow should be interesting.
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« Reply #412 on: November 23, 2016, 08:04:30 AM »

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« Reply #413 on: November 23, 2016, 08:06:52 AM »

You're missing the entire point. Maybe it's a language thing. I won't bother to restate.
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« Reply #414 on: November 23, 2016, 08:58:42 AM »

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« Reply #415 on: November 23, 2016, 12:58:32 PM »

It was pile of garbage. I knew it wouldn't make sense, it's very tough to say right words. This off-topic started with turkey. I remembered that it's traditional food to serve at Thanksgiving & discussed with NOLA in the posts below/backpage. I just meant to know why in the 1st place what we eat at various special holidays should be traditional, you know, globally. Why it *became* traditional. In my opinion, it should be up to us what to eat, what to cook by the recipes that get shared from, say, grandmother to granddaughter or created on the whim. Within the family. Isn't it logical? What's the reason behind these traditions? If it's to unite people, it doesn't make sense because every family spends the holiday at their houses & they have choice to cook sth. else instead. The same goes to those rituals. It's indidvidual. Like what if some people don't like some food etc.? I'm just curious but maybe it isn't OK question to ask, even unreasonable. Maybe the bottom line is that collective mind wins? Maybe that's the answer, it went like web from place to place, got caught & became vox populi thing? This isn't trolling, I'm genuinely interested. & really have no clue. I'll wait what NOLA will say & will see what the bottom line in the end is. Then this off-topic will end.
Instead of arguing with people, why don't you go on wikipedia and find out yourself?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #416 on: November 23, 2016, 01:02:35 PM »

You're missing the entire point. Maybe it's a language thing. I won't bother to restate.

Yeah, it think it's a language/cultural gap personally.
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« Reply #417 on: November 23, 2016, 08:47:06 PM »

Mari, I really don't know if I can answer your question to your satisfaction. The Captain stated part of what I would have posted.
Food traditions are a way of maintaining and unifying a culture. The ingredients are usually easiest to find in that particular area, and/or a particular ethnic group or groups add aspects of their culture to make something new.
Down here the food tradition comes primarily from a combination of African, French, Spanish, and Italian; that is evolving further with the emerging importance of Vietnamese food culture.  So traditions can be tweaked over time.
People can be at each others' throats about things, but sitting down to a traditional meal of chicken and sausage gumbo, served with French bread, is a point where the factions can relax and enjoy things for at least a while.

Don't know if I'm getting my point across. It's been a hard day and I'm very tired.

Those in the US - hope you have a Happy Thanksgiving !

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« Reply #418 on: November 23, 2016, 10:04:15 PM »

Mari, I really don't know if I can answer your question to your satisfaction. The Captain stated part of what I would have posted.
Food traditions are a way of maintaining and unifying a culture. The ingredients are usually easiest to find in that particular area, and/or a particular ethnic group or groups add aspects of their culture to make something new.
Down here the food tradition comes primarily from a combination of African, French, Spanish, and Italian; that is evolving further with the emerging importance of Vietnamese food culture.  So traditions can be tweaked over time.
People can be at each others' throats about things, but sitting down to a traditional meal of chicken and sausage gumbo, served with French bread, is a point where the factions can relax and enjoy things for at least a while.

Don't know if I'm getting my point across. It's been a hard day and I'm very tired.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I liked this discussion, thanks to everybody who joined, including SCaroline Z. But none of you answered the posed question "why?".

I'd say there is misunderstanding from both sides. Food is present in every ritual there is - point taken. Food traditions existed since ancient times - goes without saying. Food tradition is way to unify & maintain the culture - in what way? If there wouldn't be single food tradition, say, for Americans & would just eat what they usually cook in the family, no turkey & mirliton at Thanksgiving, just anything they'd like, can't the factions still relax & enjoy things? I don't see what difference the food could make. It may accompany us during making important decisions, f.ex. if the 2 fighting camps decided to sign the treaty & there was food & drink, in what way could that food influence the decision, play any role?

Italian food tradition is pasta, they serve it in restaurants & it's authentic. But what does it say? It just shows Italian culture, defines Italy, that's it. But these people could eat anything. Remove any food tradition, would it bring their lives to hell? Ditto any other country. As such, the "importance" you talk about regarding food seems like overstatement. I really don't see that traditions in food bear significance. How it became tradition to eat this & that dish during this & that holiday & why is questions I'd like the answers to. But thank you anyway.
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« Reply #419 on: November 24, 2016, 05:01:41 AM »

I think the "why" of food traditions is unanswerable, or at least not satisfyingly answerable, in the same way the "why" of any other cultural artifact would be. Clothing, holidays, musics, dances, etc., none of them matter on some level. If you're simply asking "couldn't life just go on without them?" the answer is always yes, obviously it could.

But culture is an organically developed artifice that brings people together (and separates them from other people brought together by their cultures). That's why it is important to people, I think. On an existential level, we have no reason to exist. We are going to die. Life is terrifying. We are ultimately temporary and alone. Culture--including food tradition--hides that beneath layers of artifice that tie us to our families, and our neighbors, and their families, multiplying into communities, regions, and even nations.

People smell some food or other cooking in the next room and they are transported to their deceased grandparents' homes and those memories. They think of their childhoods, or of significant moments in their lives. They think of the celebrations that certain foods signify to them and they imagine meaning there. Of course there is no literal meaning there, of course they aren't actually any closer to their deceased grandparents, but sometimes literal reality is irrelevant to experience.

A person could replace a traditional Thanksgiving feast of turkey, potatoes, stuffing/dressing, green beans, brussels sprouts, pumpkin pie (or whatever your regional variation may be) and eat nutritiously acceptable meals. They could also stop going to beautiful cathedrals and worship in garages. They could stop wasting time listening to music or looking at art. They could dress in simple, practical clothes. But all of those things and many other cultural signifiers are just important on a non-practical level. The evidence that they are important is their omnipresence across the world throughout history. We can say everyone throughout history, everywhere, was acting silly and in the wrong, or we can show some humility and recognize that whether it makes practical sense or not, it's just reality.

For some better explanations, I recommend googling some studies on the subject. People are unlikely to give coherent explanations of why aspects of their own culture matter, as they are drowning within those cultures and probably don't look at it objectively. ("I don't know, we just do...")

(I'm not vouching for any of these, they just popped up with a quick googling.)

http://www.aabri.com/manuscripts/141797.pdf
http://www.sirc.org/publik/foxfood.pdf
https://books.google.com/books?id=I6lsDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=food+traditions+study&source=bl&ots=lV2rcL7NKe&sig=6DGP2k4WMdRHqfJgoA-pGyk5Yag&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwicptCOucHQAhWhgVQKHfY3CKE4ChDoAQgzMAY#v=onepage&q=food%20traditions%20study&f=false
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« Reply #420 on: November 26, 2016, 07:29:24 PM »

Went with family to our place in the woods, an hour drive from my present home.
Picked up fixins from a local store, made sandwiches, had potato salad and baked beans (which contained some sausage - delicious).
My oldest sister brought a jar of Mickles Pickles, a locally made sweet pickle.
A friend then chimed in and said that these tasted great, but if you want spicy pickles, be sure to get Wickles Pickles!

There was a bit of a "nip" in the air so we got a nice fire going in the fireplace.
Don't laugh too much, Captain - it was a cold 66 degrees F (about 19C).

After great conversation and listening to some music, we had to head off, some to New Orleans, others a much longer ride back to Jacksonville, Florida.

Had thought about having a slice of leftover pie. But upon opening the door at home, I saw that BooBoo the dog had helped himself to the remains of the pie. I said Bad Dog, and he just wagged his tail, seemingly saying it's about time you got home - please play with me!

Relaxed, Mr Fuzzy the cat sitting on my left, and listened to some Dave Brubeck.
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« Reply #421 on: November 27, 2016, 02:44:49 AM »

Two days ago (to veer slightly off topic) I played my last gig with the band I've been in for almost 17 years. You know, to all good things etc.

And yesterday I watched my granddaughter take part with schoolmates in a dance festival. Aged five, she was the youngest person on stage all evening! This is what they danced to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru0K8uYEZWw   
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« Reply #422 on: November 27, 2016, 05:54:35 AM »


Don't laugh too much, Captain - it was a cold 66 degrees F (about 19C).

Ha, yes, no sympathy from me for the next few months with temperatures like that. We're looking forward to warmer-than-usual temps the next couple of days: high 40s, maybe 50. So far the nights are still only getting down to freezing, which is nice.
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Demon-Fighting Genius; Patronizing Twaddler; Argumentative, Sanctimonious Prick; Sensationalist Dullard; and Douche who (occasionally to rarely) puts songs here.

No interest in your assorted grudges and nonsense.
JK
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Maybe I put too much faith in atmosphere


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« Reply #423 on: December 11, 2016, 12:40:59 PM »

Not today, but Friday. I attended a recital by the Romanian pianist Radu Lupu. I think the term "living legend" is applicable in his case. He played Haydn (Andante con variazioni), Schumann (the astonishing Fantasia in C) and, after the intermission, Tchaikowsky (The Seasons). It was like being transported back to a 19th-century salon! The Schumann in particular blew my mind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radu_Lupu 
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"Ik bun moar een eenvoudige boerenlul en doar schoam ik mien niet veur" (Normaal, 1978)
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Emily
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« Reply #424 on: December 11, 2016, 09:33:03 PM »

Went to the New York City Ballet Nutcracker, for about the 30th time. It's a tradition now being imposed on my daughter.
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