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Poll
Question: Is "Ten Little Indians" vaguely racist?
Yes. - 14 (18.4%)
No. - 25 (32.9%)
piss up a rope, rope pisser - 37 (48.7%)
Total Voters: 67

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Author Topic: Poll: Is "Ten Little Indians" vaguely racist?  (Read 22795 times)
Fun Is In
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« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2012, 06:19:39 PM »

Shortnin' Bread is no pearl of ethnic respect either.

In my 1950's-60 US childhood we sang both of these and had fun.
I wouldn't sing either of them now..... a lot has changed in 50 years.

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« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2012, 06:22:01 PM »


If the word "Indian" is so utterly offensive, someone should go tell AIM that.

Who the f*** uses AIM anymore? What is this, 1998?

... I mean, I still do, but there are like two people who still sign in on my friends lists of about a hundred people. Tonight those two people are gettin' a big ol' message saying "YOU INDIAN."
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 06:24:41 PM by runnersdialzero » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2012, 10:46:38 PM »

I have to ask - what is it that some people could find offensive about the song?
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« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2012, 11:24:33 PM »

I have to ask - what is it that some people could find offensive about the song?

While I think the song is totally innocent given the time period (and believe context matters a thousand times more than just the words themselves), well...

Imagine I put out a song that went something like this:

*three quick electronic beats*
TEN BIG BLACK GUYS
Group chant: F*CK YEAH WATERMELON F*CK YEAH FRIED CHICKEN
etc. etc. And then I called them "negroids" or something later on, all while speaking positively about them throughout the song. All this coming from a super white d00d who's not the least bit racist, just totally clueless as to why piling on stereotypes about another race into song lyrics might not be a great idea.

... I actually just remembered I had a "character song" (i.e. not from my perspective) that is exactly as I just described sans the over-the-top offensive lyrics. Teh shame ;(

But yeah. Different time, totally innocent song written by a bunch of kids (then or now, really), but still not especially politically correct, to some.

Totally not serious thread became ttly srs Cry
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 11:29:24 PM by runnersdialzero » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: August 06, 2012, 11:33:32 PM »

Your example made me laugh because frankly most r'n'b/rap artists do a pretty good job of ridiculing/stereotyping themselves these days without having to rely on whites to do so for them.
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« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2012, 03:27:47 AM »


If the word "Indian" is so utterly offensive, someone should go tell AIM that.

Who the f*** uses AIM anymore? What is this, 1998?

... I mean, I still do, but there are like two people who still sign in on my friends lists of about a hundred people. Tonight those two people are gettin' a big ol' message saying "YOU INDIAN."

 LOL LOL
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« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2012, 04:43:08 AM »

When it's truly offensive - and I'm legendarily broadminded: being of Roma stock, you have to be - I have no problem with a change, but when it's f***ing with recorded history - say, changing the dog's name in The Dam Busters just to be PC - you'll find me on the barricades heaving Molotov c*cktails at the tree huggers.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 04:44:15 AM by Andrew G. Doe » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: August 07, 2012, 07:40:48 AM »

You folks are all judging the song by 21st century "Politically Correct" standards. Remember:The song was recorded in 1962.

Unfortunately the same thing happens to the slavery era, in US history.  People always judge it by our politically correct standards of today.
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Ron
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« Reply #58 on: August 07, 2012, 08:01:47 AM »

Play it for a Native American friend, and let me know how they feel about it, and how it makes you feel to play it for them.

We can't play it for any Native American friends, because the white man killed so many of them when we stole the country that you never see any of them anymore. 

Come to think of it, that was pretty racist of the white man.

This song isn't. 


I've got to be honest, I'm a white guy, and I don't care what's racist.  I could act like I do, like everybody else acts like they do, but I'd rather just shoot it straight. 
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« Reply #59 on: August 07, 2012, 08:08:37 AM »

"Unfortunately the same thing happens to the slavery era, in US history.  People always judge it by our politically correct standards of today."

Yeah, because slavery was such a good thing...  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #60 on: August 07, 2012, 05:53:50 PM »

I have to ask - what is it that some people could find offensive about the song?

While I think the song is totally innocent given the time period (and believe context matters a thousand times more than just the words themselves), well...

Imagine I put out a song that went something like this:

*three quick electronic beats*
TEN BIG BLACK GUYS
Group chant: F*CK YEAH WATERMELON F*CK YEAH FRIED CHICKEN
etc. etc. And then I called them "negroids" or something later on, all while speaking positively about them throughout the song. All this coming from a super white d00d who's not the least bit racist, just totally clueless as to why piling on stereotypes about another race into song lyrics might not be a great idea.

... I actually just remembered I had a "character song" (i.e. not from my perspective) that is exactly as I just described sans the over-the-top offensive lyrics. Teh shame ;(

But yeah. Different time, totally innocent song written by a bunch of kids (then or now, really), but still not especially politically correct, to some.

Totally not serious thread became ttly srs Cry

That's funny but again...do American Indians have a problem with the word "Indian"? Yeah, we all know Columbus had a lousy sense of direction hence the name, but I'm thinking of all the American Indian documentaries I watched during the seventies (after Wounded Knee they were always on TV) and I remember American Indians referring to themselves as "indian" not in the pejorative but with ethnic pride.

I have a suspicion that the terms Native American or Indigenous American were created by guilty white people during the last 20 years of crazyville PC nonsense, whereas the actual group being referred to as "indians" had no problem with the name. If I'm wrong, then I'll be glad to hear examples..but again, I doubt the American Indian Movement (AIM) think of themselves as racist jerks or that when Marlon Brando refused to accept his Oscar for the Godfather because he didn't like the way "indians" had been portrayed in the media, Native Americans were at home screaming at the TV going "How dare he! He just cussed us out!".  Wink 
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« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2012, 03:19:36 AM »

Those I know prefer the term 'Indian' to 'Native American', which, I think, is a guilt trip word and more evidence of white people trying to create an image of what 'Indian' is, while assuaging s sense of guilt for the work of their ancestors - and those still at it today, of course. I don't think the song was intended as racist and I'm with you on the 'more innocent times' feel, but if you were Indian in the early 60s and you and yours had to put up with all sorts of racist crap - the sort that didn't get reported and make the evening news in the way that racism towards Blacks did, I suspect you - and I - might feel differently.  Had it been it's original form using the N word, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. It's not the word 'Indian' that's the issue, it's the stereotypical childishly racist imagery that the song throws up.
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« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2012, 05:50:32 AM »

Play it for a Native American friend, and let me know how they feel about it, and how it makes you feel to play it for them.

We can't play it for any Native American friends, because the white man killed so many of them when we stole the country that you never see any of them anymore. 

Come to think of it, that was pretty racist of the white man.

This song isn't. 


I've got to be honest, I'm a white guy, and I don't care what's racist. 
I could act like I do, like everybody else acts like they do, but I'd rather just shoot it straight. 


Jesus fucking Christ, Ron.
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« Reply #63 on: August 08, 2012, 11:59:39 AM »

It's racist, period. And the sky is blue.

I don't think that making that simple observation should be such a big deal, nor should it lead to any direct judgement about what lies within any given individual's heart.

"Ten Little Indians" - the ditty - is one infinitesimal artifact of a larger societal racism. It's the world we live in and always will - there will never be an Enlightened Utopia led by Captain Picard.

Denying it for what it is, in my opinion, is pointless. Not to care about what's racist and what's not - well, that's a personal choice. Some - nay, MANY - people don't have that luxury.
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« Reply #64 on: August 08, 2012, 01:51:59 PM »

It's racist, period. And the sky is blue.

I don't think that making that simple observation should be such a big deal, nor should it lead to any direct judgement about what lies within any given individual's heart.

"Ten Little Indians" - the ditty - is one infinitesimal artifact of a larger societal racism. It's the world we live in and always will - there will never be an Enlightened Utopia led by Captain Picard.

Denying it for what it is, in my opinion, is pointless. Not to care about what's racist and what's not - well, that's a personal choice. Some - nay, MANY - people don't have that luxury.

Well done.
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« Reply #65 on: August 08, 2012, 03:21:35 PM »

A bunch of (I'm assuming) predominantly Caucasian American and European males determining what is racist, offensive and/or politically correct on a web forum for the whitest rock group of all time is kind of amusing, but also kind of scary !
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« Reply #66 on: August 08, 2012, 04:35:21 PM »

A bunch of (I'm assuming) predominantly Caucasian American and European males determining what is racist, offensive and/or politically correct on a web forum for the whitest rock group of all time is kind of amusing, but also kind of scary !

No kidding. Like I said on page 1: "it comes down to what the dominated culture feels, not the dominant culture." And with some exception, that was followed by a bunch of posts that ignored it.
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« Reply #67 on: August 08, 2012, 05:04:55 PM »

A bunch of (I'm assuming) predominantly Caucasian American and European males determining what is racist, offensive and/or politically correct on a web forum for the whitest rock group of all time is kind of amusing, but also kind of scary !

No kidding. Like I said on page 1: "it comes down to what the dominated culture feels, not the dominant culture." And with some exception, that was followed by a bunch of posts that ignored it.

Ah, DonnyL, you trumped us all. Seriously. I can't argue with the fact that this is utter absurdity.

I certainly read and agreed with that point you made about the dominant/dominated culture, rockandroll. That's partly what I had in mind by my statement that "many people don't have that luxury."

Maybe a mod would like to close the thread, or move to the Sandbox? Just a thought.
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« Reply #68 on: August 08, 2012, 05:23:10 PM »

A bunch of (I'm assuming) predominantly Caucasian American and European males determining what is racist, offensive and/or politically correct on a web forum for the whitest rock group of all time is kind of amusing, but also kind of scary !

No kidding. Like I said on page 1: "it comes down to what the dominated culture feels, not the dominant culture." And with some exception, that was followed by a bunch of posts that ignored it.

Ah, DonnyL, you trumped us all. Seriously. I can't argue with the fact that this is utter absurdity.

I certainly read and agreed with that point you made about the dominant/dominated culture, rockandroll. That's partly what I had in mind by my statement that "many people don't have that luxury."

Maybe a mod would like to close the thread, or move to the Sandbox? Just a thought.


Oh, yes, I got your point. It was a great post.  Smiley
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« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2012, 05:37:12 PM »

This might also be an opportune time to pay my respects to Mary Tamm, the lovely Romanadvoratrelundar, the elegant companion for Tom Baker's 4th Doctor in season 16 of Doctor Who. She died on July 26, and it's sad to see her go. On screen she sizzled, yet cool. Off-screen, the little I saw, she was graceful, a bit naughty, and erudite at the same time. And she had such a lovely, lovely face.

Seeing Alholio's avatar brought her to mind. I figured I might as well bring it up here, since we were already off-topic. I mean well.

Last night I re-listened to Nicholas Courtney's "Companion Chronicle" for Big Finish called Old Soldiers. The first line, against the sound effects of whisky being poured into a glass, was "here's to absent friends." It really choked me up. The whole play was outstanding, highly, HIGHLY recommended. Mr. Courtney ("The Brig") is now no longer with us either. He had such a gentle persona, from the testimonies of all who worked with him. Just a wonderful man, who enjoyed life, was gracious to others, had painful encounters with darkness and depression, and went out with all due solemnity, good humor, and honor.

On his deathbed, Tom Baker asked him, "Would you say, Nick, that you were a tits-man or an ass-man?" The Brig gathered up strength, heaved his heart a bit, and replied: "Both, Tom. I think I was both."

As much as I'll miss Mary Tamm, I am heartened somewhat to know that she had already wrapped up recording for an entire series of audio plays with Tom Baker, to be released in 2013. The plays will also feature K-9, and I just love that little dog. I think he's boss.

What is constant in this existence we share? What is undeniably, impossible-to-ignore, all-ecompassingly constant?

Death, for one. That might be the only one.

But I'll venture to suggest a few others:
1. The Joy/Pain coin.
2. The Justice/Mercy coin.
3. Choice.

In a K-9 voice:

"Affirmative."
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« Reply #70 on: August 08, 2012, 07:40:30 PM »

Not by 1962 standards.

Racism isn't racist by 1962 standards.
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Ron
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« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2012, 09:37:14 PM »

This might also be an opportune time to pay my respects to Mary Tamm, the lovely Romanadvoratrelundar, the elegant companion for Tom Baker's 4th Doctor in season 16 of Doctor Who. She died on July 26, and it's sad to see her go. On screen she sizzled, yet cool. Off-screen, the little I saw, she was graceful, a bit naughty, and erudite at the same time. And she had such a lovely, lovely face.

Seeing Alholio's avatar brought her to mind. I figured I might as well bring it up here, since we were already off-topic. I mean well.

Last night I re-listened to Nicholas Courtney's "Companion Chronicle" for Big Finish called Old Soldiers. The first line, against the sound effects of whisky being poured into a glass, was "here's to absent friends." It really choked me up. The whole play was outstanding, highly, HIGHLY recommended. Mr. Courtney ("The Brig") is now no longer with us either. He had such a gentle persona, from the testimonies of all who worked with him. Just a wonderful man, who enjoyed life, was gracious to others, had painful encounters with darkness and depression, and went out with all due solemnity, good humor, and honor.

On his deathbed, Tom Baker asked him, "Would you say, Nick, that you were a tits-man or an ass-man?" The Brig gathered up strength, heaved his heart a bit, and replied: "Both, Tom. I think I was both."

As much as I'll miss Mary Tamm, I am heartened somewhat to know that she had already wrapped up recording for an entire series of audio plays with Tom Baker, to be released in 2013. The plays will also feature K-9, and I just love that little dog. I think he's boss.

What is constant in this existence we share? What is undeniably, impossible-to-ignore, all-ecompassingly constant?

Death, for one. That might be the only one.

But I'll venture to suggest a few others:
1. The Joy/Pain coin.
2. The Justice/Mercy coin.
3. Choice.

In a K-9 voice:

"Affirmative."

Just to clarify my earlier post: I also don't care about any of this bullshit you just rambled on about.  So, in a way, your whole post is kind of like racism. 
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« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2012, 10:27:22 PM »

Yep, just like racism. More like Catbirdracistwhiteman. Ron's post was racist toward, Catbirdracistwhiteman. More like Racist Ron, Racist Ron.

Signed in a racist manner,
racistrunnerz
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« Reply #73 on: August 09, 2012, 08:05:42 AM »

Just to clarify my earlier post: I also don't care about any of this bullsh*t you just rambled on about.  So, in a way, your whole post is kind of like racism.  

Wow.
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« Reply #74 on: August 09, 2012, 08:37:10 AM »

Just to clarify my earlier post: I also don't care about any of this bullsh*t you just rambled on about.  So, in a way, your whole post is kind of like racism.  

Wow.

Aye, Mary Tamm was a memorable - and very attractive (is that sexist?) - companion to the finest Doc to have graced the wee screen. Losing her and Liz Sladen (on whom I might or might not have had a schoolboy crush), both pretty unexpectedly and prematurely, has been a sod.

Don't know really what it's got to do with Ten Wee First Nation People Native North Americans  but I'll raise a glass to them both tonight.  Wink
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