Dennis and the ultimatum?

[Lowbacca]

How many copies did "Pacific Ocean Blue" sell?  That may have been an influence.  He also seemed like the kind of guy who got lonely and bored easily.  At least the Beach Boys was a guarantee of companionship and something to do.

It sold pretty well (although I don't have any numbers), and was a hit with contemporary critics.

[DonnyL]

How many copies did "Pacific Ocean Blue" sell?  That may have been an influence.  He also seemed like the kind of guy who got lonely and bored easily.  At least the Beach Boys was a guarantee of companionship and something to do.

It sold pretty well (although I don't have any numbers), and was a hit with contemporary critics.

I think the original run sold around 200,000 -- almost half a gold album, quite good really. Charted to 100 I think. better than most late '70s BB records.

[Sound of Free]

Peter Carlin said it best in his book. Alan would have sided with the Wilson in '77 thru '79, EXCEPT look at their condition then.

That how I always figured it. I think Al would have been thrilled with a sober Dennis and Carl leading the band, and probably would have gone along with it if they had confined their drug and alcohol use/abuse to after hours.

The famous clip of "Surfer Girl" in Melbourne (which seems of to have disappeared from YouTube, even though other clips from that show are there) shows a lot. Carl, of course, is wasted and keeps interrupting a relatively sober Dennis giving the introduction, even cursing. At the end of the clip, as they take a group bow, Carl almost falls over. If you have that clip anywhere, look at Al when that happens. He doesn't look mad, he looks sad, as if he's thinking, "How did it come to this?"

Also, at the end of "Surfer Girl" in Knebworth, it looks like Carl (mostly cleaned up by this time, of course) is mad at Mike and wants to start something. Dennis steps in and turns it into a group bow, and Al shakes Dennis hand at the bottom of the bow. I think if not love that there was definitely a strong friendship between Dennis and Al.

Hell, even on perhaps the bitterest night in Beach Boys history, Dennis remembered it was Al's birthday.

[Lowbacca]

Also, at the end of "Surfer Girl" in Knebworth, it looks like Carl (mostly cleaned up by this time, of course) is mad at Mike and wants to start something. Dennis steps in and turns it into a group bow [...].

Just rewatched that particular scene and to me it looks like Carl passed by Mike and also stared beyond Mike, at somebody else. When Dennis got his arm around him, Carl was already past Mike. Doesn't look as if Carl was mad at the Lovester, but maybe tried to get a quick word in with somebody else before the next song. He kinda of was the on-stage musical leader, after all.

[MarcellaHasDirtyFeet]

He's always been (in my opinion) the second best songwriter in the band.

This is not a terribly controversial opinion is it?  I'm not even sure it's debatable.

It isn't in my mind. Not even a question.

[Autotune]

Also, at the end of "Surfer Girl" in Knebworth, it looks like Carl (mostly cleaned up by this time, of course) is mad at Mike and wants to start something. Dennis steps in and turns it into a group bow [...].

Just rewatched that particular scene and to me it looks like Carl passed by Mike and also stared beyond Mike, at somebody else. When Dennis got his arm around him, Carl was already past Mike. Doesn't look as if Carl was mad at the Lovester, but maybe tried to get a quick word in with somebody else before the next song. He kinda of was the on-stage musical leader, after all.

Don't remember the exact moment, but wouldn't surprise me that it was a you tell it. Carl was giving directions to people to the side of the stage a lot of the time, increasingly so into the 80s. And so did Al. I know they need to sometimes, but does not look nice.

[Autotune]

Dennis as a songwriter: a handful of gems; a ton of wandering efforts.

Extremely talented, and -paradoxically- intense while unfocused.

[Autotune]

While on the factions issue... Mike's problem, as well as Al's, were drugs and related behavior. And eventually the bitterness that naturally arouse out of the constant arguing.

Their problem was not artistic. I think Mike's only point was bringing Brian back as a creative force. Was that met without resistence from the other Wilsons? Probably.

With the exception of SIP, Mike is not a constant or principal creative force on any album.

[Banana]

Good stuff, guys.  I guess when I mentioned that Denny's heart wasn't in it after 1976 or so...what I meant was that he was, in a sense, heartbroken over the general lack of musical direction his band had taken.  I've never doubted Dennis' commitment to the band...but judging from some of his late-70s statements...he was unhappy with the music that was being made. 

[Mikie]

There is a thread with reproductions of old magazine articles. The famous RS article on the tarmac episode is there. Look for it. Someone took the trouble to re-type it.

So give us a link so I don't have to take a long time to scan mine and post it!   I told you the guy at RS was a witness!

[Mikie]

I think vocals on My Diane were recorded in late 1977...while the band was on tour.  At least that's what I go from AGD's site. 

Yeah, at least two sessions - one up in a Seattle studio where Dennis did the vocal and another one early the next year at Wally Heider's. Might have been a demo or early track in '76, but it was finished in late '77 and early '78 (but not at MIU).

I don't think he was at the Iowa sessions at all. 

Dennis supposedly did show up, but he wasn't there very long.

[Rocky Raccoon]

POB allegedly did not sit too well with Brian Wilson

Brian might actually be the album's biggest fan, he loved it more than Dennis probably did.

Considering Brian has said he's never heard it at certain times, I'd hardly say he's the album's biggest fan.

Where and when has Brian ever said anything positive about POB? What did he specifically say (not what do we vaguely think he might have said, what did he say) I'm not disputing he's praised POB, i just can't remember ever hearing or reading him having said anything about it at all and i'd be interested to hear his thoughts....

http://www.cbc.ca/player/Shows/Shows/George+Stroumboulopoulos+Tonight/Music/Music+Interviews/ID/1973693574/

This is only one I could find but he certainly seems fond of it, he even sings a little bit of River Song.

[Jason Penick]

Dennis supposedly did show up, but he wasn't there very long.

Was "Morning Christmas" cut back in L.A.?

[MBE]

POB allegedly did not sit too well with Brian Wilson

Brian might actually be the album's biggest fan, he loved it more than Dennis probably did.

Considering Brian has said he's never heard it at certain times, I'd hardly say he's the album's biggest fan.

He is a huge fan of it and Dennis. Have some loving and amusing quotes by him on the album for my book.

Also Dennis was at MIU and played on She's Got Rhythm. Source for this is Alan Boyd who has seen all the video.

1977 was a bad time for the group in general. I was listening to a show today from early in the year and Carl actually starts cussing out a rude spectator for throwing pennies. I understand that he was pissed, but Mike had already addressed it with humor, and was in the middle of a serious intro to Everyone's In Love With You. Carl apologises to Mike, and Love is cool about it (on stage at least), but man Carl sounded so loaded it's just sad.

Dennis was a victim in that he should have been allowed to tour by himself, but I am sure that at a more harmonious time it wouldn't have been the same type of problem. BTW for what it's worth Karen said to Steven Gaines that Dennis was afraid of herion and only tried it on new years eve 1977 after she chided him into it. Carl was on it a year or two by then whatever that means. I love the Wilson's but I feel for Mike, Al and, Bruce from 1976-1983.  When drugs and drink started to happen before the show it must have made it hard to ignore anymore. Talking to people who toured with them in the sixties, they were very professional and there wasn't a lot of hard drug use.

[Alan Smith]

There is a thread with reproductions of old magazine articles. The famous RS article on the tarmac episode is there. Look for it. Someone took the trouble to re-type it.

So give us a link so I don't have to take a long time to scan mine and post it!   I told you the guy at RS was a witness!

No need to go to that trouble, Mikey - I'd say the Gaines version is pretty much verbatim from R/S.

I just burned sometime going forwards then backwards through the (freakin' awesome!!!) magazines scan thread by the amazing Steve Mayo, with key contributions from Bgas - http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,10376.0.html - probably the best way to spend a rainy Monday evening, with a nifty Shiraz to assist. 

Couldn't find the hand typed tarmac account mentioned by Dr Lenny (I may not have been lookin' in the right spot), but Bgas references an R/S article  10/20/77  BB'S:NO MORE FUN,FUN,FUN - which is probably the item in question.

Thank you both!

[MBE]

It's an article worth reading but so is Gaines verson. Both have a few different details. I don't think they really got back togther as a real band at least not until now.

[Alan Smith]

There is a thread with reproductions of old magazine articles. The famous RS article on the tarmac episode is there. Look for it. Someone took the trouble to re-type it.

So give us a link so I don't have to take a long time to scan mine and post it!   I told you the guy at RS was a witness!

It's an article worth reading but so is Gaines verson. Both have a few different details. I don't think they really got back togther as a real band at least not until now.

Finally found the fcuker - on another wholesomely bumpable thread;

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,6867.msg110359.html#msg110359

[petsite]

Holy crap. I have been looking for the article and I WAS THE ONE who posted it. Man getting old sucks!!!! I even emntioned there about Dennis throwing my LP. Wow, my mind must be slipping.......

Holy crap. I have been looking for the article and I WAS THE ONE who posted it. Man getting old sucks!!!! I even emntioned there about Dennis throwing my LP. Wow, my mind must be slipping.......Just kidding here folks!

Someone posted then why didnt Dennis show signs of mental illness like Brian. Um...he did. Acting out like that (and the addiction) is a sign of mental illness. And others have said (maybe Ed Roach or Jon Stebins can comment) that Dennis suffered great bouts of depression. I think Dennis was an ass. But I also think he was only 50% responsible for his actions. Murray did the rest. They say you can only go with what you know, but someone should have said "Enough of this. This style of living has got to stop! Murray may have done all this crap to me but I am not going to pass it on!"

And remember too, that Carl and Brian were going to get Dennis help through Landy. They were suppose to meet at the group's Big Bear retreat, but it would only be Carl, Brian, Landy and some really beefy assistants. Brian and Carl would leave and you can figure out the rest. That is how the story was relayed to me. I think Dennis would have been sober for the first time in 20 years. Whether he would have stayed that way is another question. But once the haze starts to clear, you can come to terms with things alot better. I always wanted to see Dennis go on to producing other people. Man, he would have been amazing at that!

[Jukka]

Mighty interesting story, but didn't someone somewhere mention that Dennis was sober (at least most of the time) between the time of his "glass and toe" -accident and 15 Big Ones? Was there any truth in that?

[Mikie]

Finally found the fcuker - on another wholesomely bumpable thread;http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,6867.msg110359.html#msg110359

Thanks, Alholio! That's the one I'm talking about!  The airport tarmac in Newark, New Joysey.  Witnessed by John Swenson of Rolling Stone. Now I gotta go find my Gaines book to see his version of the story.

P.S.  Holy Crap.

[Mike's Beard]

That was a great article. As I read it though I couldn't help thinking that sometimes I wish Brian had shown just a little more balls in these types of situations.

[Mikie]

Was "Morning Christmas" cut back in L.A.?

Yeah, at Brother Studio in November of '77.

[Banana]

One wonders what could have happened had Dennis or Carl been put in the producer's chair for "15 Big Ones" instead of the shell-shocked Brian?  With the release of POB...Dennis was seemingly at a high ebb musically.  If you look at their catalog...there is an artisitic progression from "Surfin' Safari" all the way through "Holland".  That progression might not have always gone in the right direction...but it showed a band still willing to be meaningful.  That ended with "15 Big Ones" and the LPs that followed...and in my opinion...this represented a band trading upon former glories with diminishing returns.  I'd be upset if I were Dennis, too.

[Sheriff John Stone]

One wonders what could have happened had Dennis or Carl been put in the producer's chair for "15 Big Ones" instead of the shell-shocked Brian?  With the release of POB...Dennis was seemingly at a high ebb musically.  If you look at their catalog...there is an artisitic progression from "Surfin' Safari" all the way through "Holland".  That progression might not have always gone in the right direction...but it showed a band still willing to be meaningful.  That ended with "15 Big Ones" and the LPs that followed...and in my opinion...this represented a band trading upon former glories with diminishing returns.  I'd be upset if I were Dennis, too.

If I remember correctly (and, correct me if I'm wrong), wasn't everybody - Dennis and Carl included - in AGREEMENT that Brian would produce two new albums. The first album would be an album of oldies/covers. That would be followed by an album of new material. After recording for a couple of months, Brian basically said, "That's it..." and stopped recording. Because of that, the plan was never fulfilled, and what we got was a mismash of the two ideas. So, if anybody is to "blame" (and he shouldn't have been put in the position) at what ultimately became 15 Big Ones, wouldn't it lay at the feet of Brian?

Taking it one step further, didn't Brian have artistic control over what became The Beach Boys Love You? At least it appeared that way by that cryptic statement on the inside album jacket about having the group's full support. So, again, if "direction" was a problem with Dennis, he should've been looking at his brother Brian.

[Steve Mayo]

POB allegedly did not sit too well with Brian Wilson

Brian might actually be the album's biggest fan, he loved it more than Dennis probably did.

Considering Brian has said he's never heard it at certain times, I'd hardly say he's the album's biggest fan.

Where and when has Brian ever said anything positive about POB? What did he specifically say (not what do we vaguely think he might have said, what did he say) I'm not disputing he's praised POB, i just can't remember ever hearing or reading him having said anything about it at all and i'd be interested to hear his thoughts....

1977..crawdaddy interview lp with brian by pete fornatale...
pete.."dennis has a solo lp coming out, does he not?"
brian--"yes he does. it's a good..i heard some of the cuts...down at the studio between beach boy sessions he said "hey brian come here i want you to hear this". he played it for me. i said dennis that's funky..that's FUNKYYYYY. you know i said hey that's good..i like it, it's great..it's good good work. your gonna have a hit album, i hope he has a hit album. dennis wilson's solo album is gonna be a good album."

so there's one for ya!