Dennis and the ultimatum?

[Sheriff John Stone]

....Dennis was pretty much MIA from MIU with exception to maybe the vocal for "My Diane".... Dennis said that it was "an embarrassment to his life and should self-destruct and that karma shouldl f*ck up Mike Love’s meditation forever". 

It's statements like that, and I've read that before, that make me question why they would want Dennis to remain in the band. I seriously question it.

[BillA]

Does anybody know how that argument started?

If yopu read between the lines of the RS (the clean living faction versus the party faction) article as well as what we know now I beleive that the argument was about the impact of drugs on the band.

[BillA]

In a perfect world Dennis should have left the band after POB. He no longer fit in the band on either a personal or creative level. Focusing on building a solo career may have been the incentive he needed to stop abusing the drink and drugs.

So, what do you think is the main reason he stayed a Beach Boy and didn't go solo?

The Beach Boys pay better.

[petsite]

....Dennis was pretty much MIA from MIU with exception to maybe the vocal for "My Diane".... Dennis said that it was "an embarrassment to his life and should self-destruct and that karma shouldl f*ck up Mike Love’s meditation forever".

It's statements like that, and I've read that before, that make me question why they would want Dennis to remain in the band. I seriously question it.

Because (and Ed Roach or others that actually knew these guys please chime in), I think at the heart of all of this, they REALLY did love each other. And they were family. Alan Jardine is an extended Wilson. He and Carl got to be like brothers. Alan said in later years that Dennis was so talented. It was the other s**t that made it hard to live with the talent. Think of it this way (and I am purposely being simplistic). You have a friend with alot of talent. And he displays that talent to you and everyone around. And you are in awe of him. At the same time, he is the guy that steals your girlfriend, wrecks your car and generally pisses all over you just for the fun of it (and I have had friends who did that). After awhile, the talent and heart they have kind of gets to be not worth suffering through the other.

[Banana]

Makes sense.  You don't display that much emotion...be it good or bad...unless there is some genuine love involved. 

[Banana]

Iirc Dennis did not make a single new contribution to MIU. My Diane and HLT were earlier recordings.

I think vocals on My Diane were recorded in late 1977...while the band was on tour.  At least that's what I go from AGD's site.  Either way...his contribution was minimal...and I don't think he was at the Iowa sessions at all.  He was also knee deep in the Bamboo sessions while the band was trying to cobble MIU together.  Remember that his original material on the L.A. album were songs he gave to the band from Bamboo.  It would just seem that his heart was no longer in the band...and probably had not been since late 1976.  He didn't contribute much (if anything) to KTSA, either.

[DonnyL]

It would just seem that his heart was no longer in the band...and probably had not been since late 1976. 

I believe his heart was in the band until the very end.

[Lowbacca]

It would just seem that his heart was no longer in the band...and probably had not been since late 1976. 

I believe his heart was in the band until the very end.

Dennis loved the Beach Boys, what they represented as a band, and as his family. And he was proud beyond words to be a part of it. The Beach Boys' career and discography is a family history with all the inevitable ups and downs, but at the end of the day Dennis (maybe more than any of the other BBs) was aware of what his family had made possible for him.
And let's not forget: Dennis was always about expression, be it artistic or of another nature, and he loved being a part of representing a way of life and music which he had originated in the 1st place (or helped to originate).
While he was in very bad place in the last years of his life I believe his heart never left the BBs - in spite of Mike Love, M.I.U. or whatever (family) business.

[Banana]

Was there a sense of sadness that something he'd loved so much and given so much for had fallen to the level it had fallen to?  We all know the famous quote about MIU.

[Lowbacca]

Was there a sense of sadness that something he'd loved so much and given so much for had fallen to the level it had fallen to?  We all know the famous quote about MIU.

Sure. More than sadness. Frustration and disillusionment.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Even when he was at his lowest Dennis still delivered quality music (see Bambu) - unlike the others, his songwriting talent never deserted him, even while every single other aspect of his life fell apart. MIU may have its admirers on here, but Dennis was basically right about it - compared to what went before it was an artistic disaster. (And still no quotes re Brian on POB i see...)

[KittyKat]

I don't understand what was so awful about not doing drugs and drinking, like some of the fans seem to think.  I just read a long profile in The New Yorker about Bruce Springsteen in which Miami Steve says Bruce is the only person he ever knew who never did drugs of any kind.  Yet he managed to have a long and successful and highly creative career. Springsteen wrote a lot of classic songs stone cold sober, without pot or LSD to give him creativity.  Who woulda thunk it?  The Wilson brothers were all really messed up at a certain time period.  You really think Carl was better on junk and alcohol, singing like he did on those tapes from Australia?  I'm pretty sure Carl eventually came around to the Love/Jardine way of thinking.  It's one thing to do drugs and drink recreationally, another to do it so much that you do 5 grams of cocaine a day like Brian or drink and drug yourself to the extent of Dennis.

MIU isn't that bad.  It has quite a bit of Brian on it.  I'm also not convinced that Dennis was the second coming of Brian, sorry.  POB is nice, but it's not quite my own personal cup of tea.  I bought the reissue a few years ago and played it through maybe once or twice.  If some people love it, great, but to me, Dennis wrote some nice songs here and there, but no, he was not anywhere close to his brother Brian in terms of talent.

[Lowbacca]

[...] to me, Dennis [...] was not anywhere close to his brother Brian in terms of talent.

Of course he wasn't. Who would claim that?
Dennis was a great musician and songwriter in his own right, though - and Pacific Ocean Blue continues to amaze me every time I listen to it. So raw and beautiful, and yearning. To me it will continue to be the single best BBs solo LP (and I love That Lucky Old Sun to death!).

[Disney Boy (1985)]

I don't understand what was so awful about not doing drugs and drinking, like some of the fans seem to think.  I just read a long profile in The New Yorker about Bruce Springsteen in which Miami Steve says Bruce is the only person he ever knew who never did drugs of any kind.  Yet he managed to have a long and successful and highly creative career. Springsteen wrote a lot of classic songs stone cold sober, without pot or LSD to give him creativity.  Who woulda thunk it?  The Wilson brothers were all really messed up at a certain time period.  You really think Carl was better on junk and alcohol, singing like he did on those tapes from Australia?  I'm pretty sure Carl eventually came around to the Love/Jardine way of thinking.  It's one thing to do drugs and drink recreationally, another to do it so much that you do 5 grams of cocaine a day like Brian or drink and drug yourself to the extent of Dennis.

MIU isn't that bad.  It has quite a bit of Brian on it.  I'm also not convinced that Dennis was the second coming of Brian, sorry.  POB is nice, but it's not quite my own personal cup of tea.  I bought the reissue a few years ago and played it through maybe once or twice.  If some people love it, great, but to me, Dennis wrote some nice songs here and there, but no, he was not anywhere close to his brother Brian in terms of talent.

Correct me if i'm wrong but no-one on here has so far said that drugs and alcohol were in any way a good thing in the lives of any of the Wilson brothers, so what's made you say the above is beyond me?
My personal objection to Mike and Al post-'75 isn't that they were anti-drink and drugs but that they were anti-forward thinking/progressive music. It was, arguably, these sort of backwards-looking attitudes within the group that contributed heavily to the group's artistic (and Dennis' personal) collapse. (No, I am not - repeat NOT - saying Mike and Al were responsible for Dennis's death, before anyone suggests i am, but I am saying that the Beach Boys fall from artistic grace really, seriously affected Dennis personally - after producing an album of the quality of POB it must've been extremely painful for him to see albums like MIU and KTSA released to the public).

[Disney Boy (1985)]

[...] to me, Dennis [...] was not anywhere close to his brother Brian in terms of talent.

Of course he wasn't. Who would claim that?

Celebrate the News, Lady, Forever, Slip On Through, 4th Of July, Wouldn't It Be Nice..., Cuddle Up, Carry Me Home, Moonshine, Thoughts Of You, Baby Blue - these are songs of exceptional quality. Mona Kanu is every bit the equal of the Pet Sounds instrumentals. River Song is arguably the greatest Wilson-related song of the '70's.

So, certainly between '70-'79, Dennis was easily a rival for his brother Brian - yes, i'll confidently and happily claim that.

[Rocker]

  He didn't contribute much (if anything) to KTSA, either.

That's because he wasn't in the band at that time. He was fired.
He contributed percussion for "Endless harmony" though. But I don't know if the track was recorded for KTSA or earlier for So Tough

[KittyKat]

I don't understand what was so awful about not doing drugs and drinking, like some of the fans seem to think.  I just read a long profile in The New Yorker about Bruce Springsteen in which Miami Steve says Bruce is the only person he ever knew who never did drugs of any kind.  Yet he managed to have a long and successful and highly creative career. Springsteen wrote a lot of classic songs stone cold sober, without pot or LSD to give him creativity.  Who woulda thunk it?  The Wilson brothers were all really messed up at a certain time period.  You really think Carl was better on junk and alcohol, singing like he did on those tapes from Australia?  I'm pretty sure Carl eventually came around to the Love/Jardine way of thinking.  It's one thing to do drugs and drink recreationally, another to do it so much that you do 5 grams of cocaine a day like Brian or drink and drug yourself to the extent of Dennis.

MIU isn't that bad.  It has quite a bit of Brian on it.  I'm also not convinced that Dennis was the second coming of Brian, sorry.  POB is nice, but it's not quite my own personal cup of tea.  I bought the reissue a few years ago and played it through maybe once or twice.  If some people love it, great, but to me, Dennis wrote some nice songs here and there, but no, he was not anywhere close to his brother Brian in terms of talent.

Correct me if i'm wrong but no-one on here has so far said that drugs and alcohol were in any way a good thing in the lives of any of the Wilson brothers, so what's made you say the above is beyond me?
My personal objection to Mike and Al post-'75 isn't that they were anti-drink and drugs but that they were anti-forward thinking/progressive music. It was, arguably, these sort of backwards-looking attitudes within the group that contributed heavily to the group's artistic (and Dennis' personal) collapse. (No, I am not - repeat NOT - saying Mike and Al were responsible for Dennis's death, before anyone suggests i am, but I am saying that the Beach Boys fall from artistic grace really, seriously affected Dennis personally - after producing an album of the quality of POB it must've been extremely painful for him to see albums like MIU and KTSA released to the public.

I said that because that was the gist of the "tarmac confrontation," that it was Jardine/Love versus the Wilsons and it was over the Wilsons' drug use, yet it tends to get spun that it was the uncool versus the cool.  Even though it was around the point the Wilsons were getting into heroin, which is a drug that a lot of people were scared of, even people who used other drugs.  It's physically addictive in a way that other drugs aren't and in the street form, is mixed in ways that are unpredictable.  I'm also not sure why it would be a bad thing to confront people over being unprofessional on tour.  If the guys didn't want to be there, they shouldn't have been touring, drugs or not.  Bands get in fights, they break up, they have differences.  That doesn't make either side villains.

[petsite]

The drugs vs sober on this board or any other DOES degrade into cool and not cool. It has even before there were boards. And I never understood it. LSD opens your horizons? Gimme a f***ing break. It natural? It a MOLD. Good MOLD - anti-biotics. Bad MOLD - poison. And that is all anyone is really feeling on any of this stuff is a poisining of their system. I may feel good or different. But its posin. I always laughed at guys that would get high, tell you how uncool you were for not doing it, and then they either pissed or s**t themselves or vomited the rest of the night. Don't get me wrong. While no pot/coke/etc every entered my system, the alcohol that passed thru my body found its way out the same as I described above. So who is the a**hole here? But I would never think that was cool. Who would?

[Disney Boy (1985)]

I don't understand what was so awful about not doing drugs and drinking, like some of the fans seem to think.  I just read a long profile in The New Yorker about Bruce Springsteen in which Miami Steve says Bruce is the only person he ever knew who never did drugs of any kind.  Yet he managed to have a long and successful and highly creative career. Springsteen wrote a lot of classic songs stone cold sober, without pot or LSD to give him creativity.  Who woulda thunk it?  The Wilson brothers were all really messed up at a certain time period.  You really think Carl was better on junk and alcohol, singing like he did on those tapes from Australia?  I'm pretty sure Carl eventually came around to the Love/Jardine way of thinking.  It's one thing to do drugs and drink recreationally, another to do it so much that you do 5 grams of cocaine a day like Brian or drink and drug yourself to the extent of Dennis.

MIU isn't that bad.  It has quite a bit of Brian on it.  I'm also not convinced that Dennis was the second coming of Brian, sorry.  POB is nice, but it's not quite my own personal cup of tea.  I bought the reissue a few years ago and played it through maybe once or twice.  If some people love it, great, but to me, Dennis wrote some nice songs here and there, but no, he was not anywhere close to his brother Brian in terms of talent.

Correct me if i'm wrong but no-one on here has so far said that drugs and alcohol were in any way a good thing in the lives of any of the Wilson brothers, so what's made you say the above is beyond me?
My personal objection to Mike and Al post-'75 isn't that they were anti-drink and drugs but that they were anti-forward thinking/progressive music. It was, arguably, these sort of backwards-looking attitudes within the group that contributed heavily to the group's artistic (and Dennis' personal) collapse. (No, I am not - repeat NOT - saying Mike and Al were responsible for Dennis's death, before anyone suggests i am, but I am saying that the Beach Boys fall from artistic grace really, seriously affected Dennis personally - after producing an album of the quality of POB it must've been extremely painful for him to see albums like MIU and KTSA released to the public.

I said that because that was the gist of the "tarmac confrontation," that it was Jardine/Love versus the Wilsons and it was over the Wilsons' drug use, yet it tends to get spun that it was the uncool versus the cool.  Even though it was around the point the Wilsons were getting into heroin, which is a drug that a lot of people were scared of, even people who used other drugs.  It's physically addictive in a way that other drugs aren't and in the street form, is mixed in ways that are unpredictable.  I'm also not sure why it would be a bad thing to confront people over being unprofessional on tour.  If the guys didn't want to be there, they shouldn't have been touring, drugs or not.  Bands get in fights, they break up, they have differences.  That doesn't make either side villains.

Of course, i'm not disputing a word you say. However, in terms of musical direction, i side utterly with Carl and Dennis. It's true they didn't have to be there, but the group was their life - it was what they did and all they knew - and - as evidenced on LA (and on POB/Bambu) - the two brothers (and Dennis in particular) were still keen to move the group in a progressive direction. Mike and Al clearly weren't, and i think money played as big a part in that as any drug and alcohol issues.

[petsite]

Peter Carlin said it best in his book. Alan would have sided with the Wilson in '77 thru '79, EXCEPT look at their condition then. If you are that unhappy as the Wilson's were, straighten up and take the group back over. That is what always got to me. Carl finally said FU in 1981 and left for 18 months. I always loved him for that!

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Peter Carlin said it best in his book. Alan would have sided with the Wilson in '77 thru '79, EXCEPT look at their condition then. If you are that unhappy as the Wilson's were, straighten up and take the group back over. That is what always got to me. Carl finally said FU in 1981 and left for 18 months. I always loved him for that!

It would've been great had they been able too, but that is to misunderstand the nature of addiction. Dennis' mind may have been saying 'Write another great song', but his body was screaming Drugs! Alcohol! Now! Quick!!

[Autotune]

There is a thread with reproductions of old magazine articles. The famous RS article on the tarmac episode is there. Look for it. Someone took the trouble to re-type it.

Basically, it all got down to the sh*t that goes between family members when they run a bussiness together. That sh*t is what broke them appart and that's what brought them together then and now.

[Mike's Beard]

In a perfect world Dennis should have left the band after POB. He no longer fit in the band on either a personal or creative level. Focusing on building a solo career may have been the incentive he needed to stop abusing the drink and drugs.

So, what do you think is the main reason he stayed a Beach Boy and didn't go solo?

Well only Dennis could really know for sure. Maybe the lure of a large regular paycheck was too much for him to resist. Maybe he had reservations that he could sustain a sucessful solo career. Or maybe leaving the thing that had been a huge part of his life since he was just a kid was too much for him to do?

[KittyKat]

How many copies did "Pacific Ocean Blue" sell?  That may have been an influence.  He also seemed like the kind of guy who got lonely and bored easily.  At least the Beach Boys was a guarantee of companionship and something to do.

[PongHit]

He's always been (in my opinion) the second best songwriter in the band.

This is not a terribly controversial opinion is it?  I'm not even sure it's debatable.