Dennis and the ultimatum?

[Banana]

I'm relatively new around here...so I don't know if this has been discussed before.  I've been a BB fanatic for about 20 of my 35 years...and I know quite a bit...but one of the main reasons I joined this forum was because there are plenty of you who have forgotten more about the BB than I'll ever know...and I love learning new bits and pieces.

Anyway, I've often read that Dennis was given an ultimatum in the late-70's (around the time of POB) to either quit the group and head off as a solo performer or put the solo aspirations aside and simply remain the drummer.  I'm pretty certain this actually happened...I'd just like to know a little more of the "dirt" behind it.  Where did this ulitmatium come from and who issued it?  I have my suspects...but I'll keep my yap shut until I hear something concrete.

Also, I've often read about there being interband jealousy regarding Denny's growing stature as a songwriter and performer.  Where did this come from and who were the main culprits?

He's always been (in my opinion) the second best songwriter in the band.

[Jason]

After POB was released, Dennis flirted with the idea of a limited solo tour, going as far as booking a few dates and recording the rehearsals with a live band that included many members of the Beach Boys' backing band, including Carli Munoz and Ed Carter. POB allegedly did not sit too well with Brian Wilson, Michael Love, and Al Jardine. The matter did come up for debate in late 1977. Dennis was given an ultimatum to either go solo and leave the band, or make the band number one. I think it's safe to say that all four members besides Dennis bullied him into it. Ironic that Carl was allowed his own solo tour with nary a whisper from the group.

[Sheriff John Stone]

Ironic that Carl was allowed his own solo tour with nary a whisper from the group.

Nor Mike when he did his Celebration side gig and his Looking Back With Love album. Actually, Brian and Carl performed with Celebration. And, Brian was able to do his solo thing and be a Beach Boy in the mid/late 1980's.

[Dunderhead]

After POB was released, Dennis flirted with the idea of a limited solo tour, going as far as booking a few dates and recording the rehearsals with a live band that included many members of the Beach Boys' backing band, including Carli Munoz and Ed Carter. POB allegedly did not sit too well with Brian Wilson, Michael Love, and Al Jardine. The matter did come up for debate in late 1977. Dennis was given an ultimatum to either go solo and leave the band, or make the band number one. I think it's safe to say that all four members besides Dennis bullied him into it. Ironic that Carl was allowed his own solo tour with nary a whisper from the group.

Wasn't the big airport fight in '77 as well? Did the Dennis thing figure into that at all?

[startBBtoday]

I know the Dennis love is astronomically high on this board and its blasphemy to say negative things about him, but I think that he was a much bigger pain in the ass than any of us give credit to.

The Beach Boys needed Carl Wilson and couldn't exactly give ultimatums in the rare chance he told the rest of the group to eff off. The boys had already been using other drummers live for years at that point and could afford to go on tour without the problems surrounding Dennis, and therefore could get away with the chance he might tell them to eff off and go solo for good.

I'm sure they also noticed their own creative limitations, plus Brian's problems at that point and wanted either all or none of Dennis' material.

Carl's live contributions/leadership was more important than his songwriting, whereas the opposite was true of Dennis. What's the point of having Dennis in the band if you're absorbing all of his problems, but not getting positive contributions?

[Dunderhead]

I know the Dennis love is astronomically high on this board and its blasphemy to say negative things about him, but I think that he was a much bigger pain in the ass than any of us give credit to.

The Beach Boys needed Carl Wilson and couldn't exactly give ultimatums in the rare chance he told the rest of the group to eff off. The boys had already been using other drummers live for years at that point and could afford to go on tour without the problems surrounding Dennis, and therefore could get away with the chance he might tell them to eff off and go solo for good.

I'm sure they also noticed their own creative limitations, plus Brian's problems at that point and wanted either all or none of Dennis' material.

Carl's live contributions/leadership was more important than his songwriting, whereas the opposite was true of Dennis. What's the point of having Dennis in the band if you're absolving all of his problems, but not getting positive contributions?

This is a very fair take on the situation I think. I never really thought of it like that, but they're all very good points.

[petsite]

I think that the guys were jealous. Mike wanted his own solo deal with Jimmy G. and Caribou. He didn't get it. And remember this. While the BB were slaving away with and without Brian trying to deliver LA to CBS, Mike was up at his home studio recording 2 solo LPs and couldn't be bothered to come to LA to put his vocals on the new LP. Bruce would have to cart the tapes up to Mike's to get his vocals.

Dennis had a big heart. And he was a REALLY talented. He was also an ass when he was loaded. Throwing my LP of PS across the lobby of the Hyatt just to prove who he was pissed me off. But having numerous friends who knew Dennis, I just walked over, picked it up, and asked him to sign it. After I said are you thru f***ing around now? I think the group really just wanted him straight. Let's face it. Art that good comes from alot of despair and pain. Brian , Dennis and Carl certainly had their share.

[Mikie]

I think that the guys were jealous.

Of course they were jealous!  With the exception of Brian, none of the others could write an album like that!  They were pissed!

September 3, 1977 on that airport tarmac was the turning point I think.  Loves/Jardine vs. Wilsons.  It was the beginning of Dennis' downward spiral with the Beach Boys and on a personal level.

[Jay]

Does anybody know how that argument started?

[Mikie]

Some guy from Rolling Stone witnessed it and documented it. I have the article clipping somewhere. It's also been written about in a couple of books. Maybe Stebbins, White, Gaines, Carlin, or Badman's book.

[Rocky Raccoon]

POB allegedly did not sit too well with Brian Wilson

Brian might actually be the album's biggest fan, he loved it more than Dennis probably did.

[DonnyL]

... no offense to the other guys, but I'm sure they all realized that Dennis and Brian were the only two members who had a serious shot at a solo career ... they probably didn't want DW to steal the group's thunder. He really could have been a major late '70s star (if things had gone differently) in my opinion. He was more 'relevant' than the band in some ways at the time. Certainly hipper.

Dennis was a legitimate solo 'artist', whereas Carl's later move was really more like 'I just need to get some rock n roll out and the band is getting boring' kind of thing. I don't really know what Mike was thinking with his solo deals. Seems like maybe he was just grabbing some extra projects that came up at the time.

(PS - I don't know if this ultimatum thing is actually verifiable in any case !)

[Jim V.]

POB allegedly did not sit too well with Brian Wilson

Brian might actually be the album's biggest fan, he loved it more than Dennis probably did.

Considering Brian has said he's never heard it at certain times, I'd hardly say he's the album's biggest fan.

[AndrewHickey]

Ironic that Carl was allowed his own solo tour with nary a whisper from the group.

Well, Carl quit the group for his solo albums/tour, didn't he?

[Mike's Beard]

In a perfect world Dennis should have left the band after POB. He no longer fit in the band on either a personal or creative level. Focusing on building a solo career may have been the incentive he needed to stop abusing the drink and drugs.

[Alan Smith]

Does anybody know how that argument started?

Some guy from Rolling Stone witnessed it and documented it. I have the article clipping somewhere. It's also been written about in a couple of books. Maybe Stebbins, White, Gaines, Carlin, or Badman's book.

According to the Gaines book, things were generally tense (Carl & Denny vs Mike & Al + Stan/Rocky), but the specific argument was a custody battle over Brian post a gig in Providence, Rhode Island.  Due to an aircraft related delay, Dennis and Karen Lamm decided to hang out in NYC for the night and Brian wanted to party with them; Team Al and Mike said no dice, and wouldn't let him off their plane - Dennis went and told Carl (waiting for a different plane) and then the shi* hit the tarmac.  See part 2 of Chapter 15, if you have it (page 303 of the '95 DaCapo edition).

But if Mikie can find the original clipping, it would be cool to see if the stories line up...

[Lonely Summer]

A Dennis solo tour would've been cool - provided he kept himself together enough to do it, and my guess is that he would've. Carl did leave the group for awhile, did a solo tour of clubs in 1981, followed by a stint opening for the Doobie Brothers that summer. He recorded Youngblood that fall, and was back in the group by spring '82. He did manage to work in a a few solo shows in the summer of '83, but he was full time with the BB's. I don't think he'd ever intended to quit the group, just got bored with the routine, saw an opening to do something on his own and he took it.

[GuyO]

Until reading Jeff's first hand observations in thread about the Byron Preiss tapes I never fully realised the band REALLY had broken up. It wasn't until during the recording at MIU that Carl and Dennis return to BB. I wonder how long it took to reconcile.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

POB allegedly did not sit too well with Brian Wilson

Brian might actually be the album's biggest fan, he loved it more than Dennis probably did.

Considering Brian has said he's never heard it at certain times, I'd hardly say he's the album's biggest fan.

Where and when has Brian ever said anything positive about POB? What did he specifically say (not what do we vaguely think he might have said, what did he say) I'm not disputing he's praised POB, i just can't remember ever hearing or reading him having said anything about it at all and i'd be interested to hear his thoughts....

[Banana]

Thanks for the WEALTH of info, guys...this is exactly what I was hoping for.  I knew the basic skeleton of the story...but I've now been able to fill a lot more in.  I've often wondered if Dennis would have been better off if he'd simply gone solo...but the demons that haunted him would have been hard to shake no matter where he was.  I've also always been under the opinion that for several LPs in the 70s...Dennis was operating as a separate unit from the rest of the band when it came to his compositions...or maybe more as a self-contained unit (does that make any sense?). 

[Mikie]

Until reading Jeff's first hand observations in thread about the Byron Preiss tapes I never fully realised the band REALLY had broken up. It wasn't until during the recording at MIU that Carl and Dennis return to BB. I wonder how long it took to reconcile.

Yeah, but even then, Dennis was pretty much MIA from MIU with exception to maybe the vocal for "My Diane". And Carl wasn't really into it. Dennis said that it was "an embarrassment to his life and should self-destruct and that karma shouldl f*ck up Mike Love’s meditation forever".  I think the Wilson brothers were still hokding on to what transpired the year before in Newark.

[GuyO]

Iirc Dennis did not make a single new contribution to MIU. My Diane and HLT were earlier recordings.

[Mikie]

Yeah, I think you're right. Dennis showed up briefly to MIU then went to the Bahamas or somewhere.  Don't recall seeing him in the "Our Team" video from MIU, but I have to view it again to make sure....

[Sheriff John Stone]

Ironic that Carl was allowed his own solo tour with nary a whisper from the group.

Well, Carl quit the group for his solo albums/tour, didn't he?

I think there is/was a difference between quitting the group and leaving the group. Carl left the group. He stated his reasons - the group wasn't "giving their all" and he wanted to do some solo stuff. In my opinion, I don't think there was much doubt that he would return.

And, as The Real Beach Boy stated, the group accepted it, gave his guitar parts and vocals to other band members, and waited for his return. As I recall, no recording was done while he was away.

[Sheriff John Stone]

In a perfect world Dennis should have left the band after POB. He no longer fit in the band on either a personal or creative level. Focusing on building a solo career may have been the incentive he needed to stop abusing the drink and drugs.

So, what do you think is the main reason he stayed a Beach Boy and didn't go solo?