Armin Steiner in outtake from the film The Wrecking Crew talks about "Vegetables

[DonnyL]

What I don't understand is why this is being discussed again. I provided all of this information in the previous thread. None of this is opinion, it is all verifiable. AGD, you are either going to have to trust me or do the research yourself. I suggest starting by joining the Ampex and Scully mailing lists, where this thread would be laughable.

In AGDs defense, and partly in mine too, I suppose, this is a hard pill to swallow because in my case for 12 years or so and in Doe's case probably 30 years, we've pinned our research on the only commercially available 8-track in LA being at CBS, until mid-ish '67.

Everything we know about Brian's working methods around the transition from Smile into Smiley is based on the division of studios.  Tracks at Western and Gold Star, Columbia for vocals, etc, etc.  Brian leaving the safe confines of Western for the more clinical atmosphere of CBS--there's so many points that have come to rest on the lack of an 8-track anywhere other than this one place until a very specific time.

So it's a bit of a shock to the system.

I get it, but you guys also need to understand that there is a Scully 280/284 8-track being used in that footage. If you show the footage to anyone who is familiar with '60s recording machines, they will confirm this. I'm not certain of anything else surrounding this mystery, but I am 100% certain of this.

If my credentials are in dispute, show the footage to Mark Linnet, who has a Scully 280 4-track; I'm certain he will confirm this.

I think it also goes to show that our minds need to be open to the 'everything you know is wrong' possibilities ... which makes it pretty exciting, doesn't it ?!

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

What I don't understand is why this is being discussed again. I provided all of this information in the previous thread. None of this is opinion, it is all verifiable. AGD, you are either going to have to trust me or do the research yourself. I suggest starting by joining the Ampex and Scully mailing lists, where this thread would be laughable.

In AGDs defense, and partly in mine too, I suppose, this is a hard pill to swallow because in my case for 12 years or so and in Doe's case probably 30 years, we've pinned our research on the only commercially available 8-track in LA being at CBS, until mid-ish '67.

Everything we know about Brian's working methods around the transition from Smile into Smiley is based on the division of studios.  Tracks at Western and Gold Star, Columbia for vocals, etc, etc.  Brian leaving the safe confines of Western for the more clinical atmosphere of CBS--there's so many points that have come to rest on the lack of an 8-track anywhere other than this one place until a very specific time.

So it's a bit of a shock to the system.

I get it, but you guys also need to understand that there is a Scully 280/284 8-track being used in that footage. If you show the footage to anyone who is familiar with '60s recording machines, they will confirm this. I'm not certain of anything else surrounding this mystery, but I am 100% certain of this.

If my credentials are in dispute, show the footage to Mark Linnet, who has a Scully 280 4-track; I'm certain he will confirm this.

I think it also goes to show that our minds need to be open to the 'everything you know is wrong' possibilities ... which makes it pretty exciting, doesn't it ?!

No dispute from me at all.  I was just trying to finesse Mr. Doe back into the fray in baby steps.

Linett, incidentally, is another person who has based a lot of his research on the "one 8-track and it was at CBS" theory.

[DonnyL]

I've been researching a bit more since guitarfool notified me of this thread, and I'll post some things as I find them.

* Wally's first 8-track was indeed '67, and it was a 3M M23 (non-Dynatrak). The '67 Hawaii shows were recorded with TWO of these (not at the same time, but likely to keep the tape going the whole time). An 8-buss console was specifically built (by Frank DeMedio and Dale Manquen) for this event as well.

My best theory with the info we have is that Western was auditioning 8-tracks in late '66/early '67, and eventually settled on the 3M M23. They must have only had this Scully briefly, since I've never seen any footage of any other group's session with the Scully there.

... which brings up the possibility that it was rented for a Beach Boys session. Who knows where BW may have rented it from. But the WHY is easy -- he wanted 8-tracks and he wanted to record at Western.

[DonnyL]

What I don't understand is why this is being discussed again. I provided all of this information in the previous thread. None of this is opinion, it is all verifiable. AGD, you are either going to have to trust me or do the research yourself. I suggest starting by joining the Ampex and Scully mailing lists, where this thread would be laughable.

In AGDs defense, and partly in mine too, I suppose, this is a hard pill to swallow because in my case for 12 years or so and in Doe's case probably 30 years, we've pinned our research on the only commercially available 8-track in LA being at CBS, until mid-ish '67.

Everything we know about Brian's working methods around the transition from Smile into Smiley is based on the division of studios.  Tracks at Western and Gold Star, Columbia for vocals, etc, etc.  Brian leaving the safe confines of Western for the more clinical atmosphere of CBS--there's so many points that have come to rest on the lack of an 8-track anywhere other than this one place until a very specific time.

So it's a bit of a shock to the system.

I get it, but you guys also need to understand that there is a Scully 280/284 8-track being used in that footage. If you show the footage to anyone who is familiar with '60s recording machines, they will confirm this. I'm not certain of anything else surrounding this mystery, but I am 100% certain of this.

If my credentials are in dispute, show the footage to Mark Linnet, who has a Scully 280 4-track; I'm certain he will confirm this.

I think it also goes to show that our minds need to be open to the 'everything you know is wrong' possibilities ... which makes it pretty exciting, doesn't it ?!

No dispute from me at all.  I was just trying to finesse Mr. Doe back into the fray in baby steps.

Linett, incidentally, is another person who has based a lot of his research on the "one 8-track and it was at CBS" theory.

Then he should definitely check out the footage !

[DonnyL]

So... the first hand evidence of the company newsletter and someone who actually worked in the studio at the time is to be disregarded for what someone sees in a few seconds of film footage some 20 years later and deduces ?

Jesus, I'm sometimes arrogant, but this is arrogance elevated to a whole new cosmic level. There's no point in researching any more, is there, because all that really matters is what people with no connection to the industry think.

Know something ? I think "Good Vibrations" wasn't ever released as a single at all, so don't try to persuade me otherwise with such pointless 'evidence' as an actual copy of the 45, OK ?

AGD, I just read the old thread and by the end of it you seemed to be as unsure as any of us what the make and model of that machine was, and our best evidence was only that the machine in the BB footage did not look like other identified Dynatrack machines, and the fact that it was running 1" tape.

I know how much you enjoy being angry, but I think it's recurring problems like these that actually make it more worth researching, and not giving up--building on what we slowly uncover and not reverting to the old-standbys.

If the thing is a Dynatrack 4-track, why is it running 1" tape?

Two channels per track. Like I said, in strict technical terms, it IS an 8-track, as there are 8 tracks used during recording... but there's no Sel-Sync and the discrete tracks number only four (doubled), ergo it's not an 8-track as we understand it.

Dynatrak models do have the Sync option.

[guitarfool2002]

I know it gets into a sensitive issue with privacy and not bugging someone running a business, but if there is a remote chance that Mark Linett would be able to take a look and offer a few comments and maybe shed more light on this, I have the film and a series of more still screen shots which I took from that film readily available.

I'm not in a position to do it out of the blue, but if someone would be able to facilitate a contact with Mark, it would mean a lot to us and this discussion. And out of everyone in 2012, he is without a doubt that person who has handled those tapes more than anyone, and quite possibly has threaded up that very same 1" tape which we see Brian and Chuck working with in the film.

[guitarfool2002]

And to add onto the discussion, since so much has since appeared here versus the older thread, I have watched the film several times since this thread and I noticed there is an assistant engineer shown wearing a white shirt, necktie, and a red firehat operating what looks like the 2-track, 1/2" machine that would handle the mixdowns after going through the board. If you were standing in studio 3, this machine can be seen in several shots off to the far left of the control room, next to the board.

This could mean what we see on the film was a mixdown session, which would go to that particular 2-track machine, or the assistant merely copying the rough mix of that day's work - whatever that was - onto a smaller reel for Brian to take home. Or, the mixdown on tape to be cut to an acetate, whichever.

Not that it adds much to the discussion, but I never really caught what that guy with the hat and tie was doing in the film until this week.

[guitarfool2002]

This is the guy, leaning over what I think is the 2-track tape machine where the mix is being fed. I don't recognize him at all from any other Western-United photos I have seen.

[DonnyL]

It does seem like it might be a mix or playback.

(PS - that would be a 1/4" mono mixdown deck. can't see the machine enough to know what it is).

Do you have a link to the actual video? I think I have this on VHS somewhere but I can't find it.

[DonnyL]

couldn't find any info about an 8-track at Western prior to spring '67 w/ the 3M M23 on the Ampex or Scully lists. Still looking around though. That newsletter does mention they selected the 3M after reviewing other machines, so there's a chance they had a Scully there briefly and let BW use it for this session.

[DonnyL]

Incidentally, my friend Kelley has one of the original early '60s Ampex 351 8-track 1" machines, you can see a picture of him with it at this link (scroll down a little):

http://pitchfork.com/features/articles/7951-positive-destruction-san-franciscos-new-garage-rock/

this shows you how large these machines are and how they are modular. The 1" transport is behind him, and the rack on the left houses the 8 electronics modules (tube).

[Andrew G. Doe]

What I don't understand is why this is being discussed again. I provided all of this information in the previous thread. None of this is opinion, it is all verifiable. AGD, you are either going to have to trust me or do the research yourself. I suggest starting by joining the Ampex and Scully mailing lists, where some posts in this thread would be laughable.

Oh, I trust you. This is your area of expertise and I respect that - and your posts are fascinating reading. I recall someone (Bruce, I think) saying they tried recording up at Brian's place on the rented Scully but it just didn't pan out.

Be interested in your take on my #1 sticking point: given there seems to have been a functioning 8-track at his go-to studio in January 1967, where he could run the board himself... why keep using Columbia, a studio where he wasn't even allowed to touch the board ?

[I. Spaceman]

Maybe he just really loved the sound of the vocals recorded at Columbia.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Maybe he just really loved the sound of the vocals recorded at Columbia.

I think there might be some truth in this.  By the time Western got this 8-track (unless of course, they were indeed just long-term auditioning it in which case things change a bit) Brian was used to his routine and came to like the vocal sound he was getting over there.  I mean, it's not like CBS isn't literally right across the street.

[Cam Mott]

It could even be he just wanted [or wanted to maintain] the Columbia sound for H&V in particular.

[DonnyL]

What I don't understand is why this is being discussed again. I provided all of this information in the previous thread. None of this is opinion, it is all verifiable. AGD, you are either going to have to trust me or do the research yourself. I suggest starting by joining the Ampex and Scully mailing lists, where some posts in this thread would be laughable.

Oh, I trust you. This is your area of expertise and I respect that - and your posts are fascinating reading. I recall someone (Bruce, I think) saying they tried recording up at Brian's place on the rented Scully but it just didn't pan out.

Be interested in your take on my #1 sticking point: given there seems to have been a functioning 8-track at his go-to studio in January 1967, where he could run the board himself... why keep using Columbia, a studio where he wasn't even allowed to touch the board ?

My best guess is either:

* BW rented it from somewhere for whatever period of time (a week?), and left it at Western for this particular session(s). This theory has a lot of holes I can't fill in.

* Western were auditioning 8-tracks, and let BW use it during a short period in time (maybe Chuck or someone even pulled it out when they weren't supposed to or something).  More likely scenario, but still has some holes. Scully sales reps may have been wooing the studio? Or maybe, they actually had the Scully and didn't like it for whatever reason and returned it, then ordered the 3M and made the 8-track announcement. There may have been some time between returning the Scully and obtaining te 3M. The thing is, I've never read about any of this or seen the Scully at Western anywhere other than this footage ... which sort of supports the other theory ! (with bigger holes)

[guitarfool2002]

Barring any kind of calibration issues between Columbia's tape machine and whatever else was in town, if Brian did in fact have access to an 8 track at Western it would solve the issue of him being allowed to work the board, and mix his tracks "hands on". If all he needed Columbia for was vocals and if he liked the vocal sound he could get at Columbia, and that would seem to be the case, he could take those tapes back to Western with Chuck. Vosse and Anderle had mentioned Brian working the board during Smile and specifically Chuck letting him do it, so it would have had to be at Western.

The sticking point for me isn't as much Brian having the 8 track at Western, as the film would prove he did, but rather *when* did he get that capability, i.e. when did Western get that 8 track as seen in the film? Sometime after Pet Sounds would be an obvious assumption, but who knows until more info comes out.

I remember there was a similar discussion about the process of mixing Pet Sounds between studios and between the 4-track and 8-track formats, and based on all the accepted knowledge Brian would have to bounce the tracks from Columbia in order to mix at Western, if he even made it a practice to mix at Western during Pet Sounds...and by all indications he did, with Chuck.

And as someone said, the assumptions that Columbia was the only 8 track in town seem to have been proven wrong. I think sometimes that Beach Boys-related assumption carried over to suggest Columbia was one of the only 8 tracks at this specific time, and a few pages ago the examples of Sound Recorders with Steiner, Atlantic in 1958 (NYC) and Motown around 64 (Detroit) show otherwise.

[guitarfool2002]

why keep using Columbia, a studio where he wasn't even allowed to touch the board ?

Yet there are several shots in the recently released films of the GV vocal session at Columbia showing Brian clearly touching the board and working some of those old rotary faders as the "official" Columbia engineer is holding a stopwatch to time something on the track/mix.

So I'd even call that into question as a general practice versus first-hand accounts of isolated incidents at Columbia, in light of seeing Brian working that board actually unfolding on camera. 

[guitarfool2002]

why keep using Columbia, a studio where he wasn't even allowed to touch the board ?

Yet there are several shots in the recently released films of the GV vocal session at Columbia showing Brian clearly touching the board and working some of those old rotary faders as the "official" Columbia engineer is holding a stopwatch to time something on the track/mix.

So I'd even call that into question as a general practice versus first-hand accounts of isolated incidents at Columbia, in light of seeing Brian working that board actually unfolding on camera. 

This still from the GV session shows Brian working Columbia's board:

[DonnyL]

I think what we're learning is conventional wisdom might be a little too conventional ...

I don't doubt Columbia was the only 8-track in town for the bulk of '65-'66 though. By late '67, the game was changing with 12 and 16-track coming around. So that year was probably filled with lots of changes; it's no wonder memories can't exactly keep up.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I think what we're learning is conventional wisdom might be a little too conventional ...

I don't doubt Columbia was the only 8-track in town for the bulk of '65-'66 though. By late '67, the game was changing with 12 and 16-track coming around. So that year was probably filled with lots of changes; it's no wonder memories can't exactly keep up.

OK, so, new scenario:

CBS gets the 8-track before everybody else.

Brian goes over there and likes working with 8-tracks, and can get away with touching the board, say, because of Bruce.  (Even though Bruce denies this.)

Western starts experimenting with 8-tracks earlier than we thought--but doesn't OWN one yet.

Brian starts being able to bring 8-tracks back with him from CBS to Western to mix.

Western gets a permanent 3M in time for when we know they had it.



This plays on a question I once had--

I noticed that many of the CBS-tracked Lead vocals were recorded dry, and yet clearly have loads of reverb on them in the final mixes.  I wondered if Brian did that because he preferred the sound of Western's chambers.  Then somebody pointed out to me that they would have to have had mixed them (awesome use of the English language there, thank you) at CBS on the 8-track since that was the only one.  Maybe I was on to something originally?

[guitarfool2002]

I think what we're learning is conventional wisdom might be a little too conventional ...

I don't doubt Columbia was the only 8-track in town for the bulk of '65-'66 though. By late '67, the game was changing with 12 and 16-track coming around. So that year was probably filled with lots of changes; it's no wonder memories can't exactly keep up.

OK, so, new scenario:

CBS gets the 8-track before everybody else.

Brian goes over there and likes working with 8-tracks, and can get away with touching the board, say, because of Bruce.  (Even though Bruce denies this.)

Western starts experimenting with 8-tracks earlier than we thought--but doesn't OWN one yet.

Brian starts being able to bring 8-tracks back with him from CBS to Western to mix.

Western gets a permanent 3M in time for when we know they had it.



This plays on a question I once had--

I noticed that many of the CBS-tracked Lead vocals were recorded dry, and yet clearly have loads of reverb on them in the final mixes.  I wondered if Brian did that because he preferred the sound of Western's chambers.  Then somebody pointed out to me that they would have to have had mixed them (awesome use of the English language there, thank you) at CBS on the 8-track since that was the only one.  Maybe I was on to something originally?

The last part is my thought exactly, too, and a question I posed on another thread - if Columbia had the only 8 track (When did Steiner get his 8 track at Sound???), and he recorded vocals on 8 track tape at Columbia, he would have had to mix at Columbia, common sense deduction, because no other machine could play back that tape unless it was bounced/sub-mixed/reduced to 4. But he didn't, at least so we're told, because Chuck Britz was usually involved in mixing with Brian in 65-66. And Chuck was at Western.

[guitarfool2002]

I think what we're learning is conventional wisdom might be a little too conventional ...

A picture is worth a thousand words.

[DonnyL]

I think what we're learning is conventional wisdom might be a little too conventional ...

I don't doubt Columbia was the only 8-track in town for the bulk of '65-'66 though. By late '67, the game was changing with 12 and 16-track coming around. So that year was probably filled with lots of changes; it's no wonder memories can't exactly keep up.

OK, so, new scenario:

CBS gets the 8-track before everybody else.

Brian goes over there and likes working with 8-tracks, and can get away with touching the board, say, because of Bruce.  (Even though Bruce denies this.)

Western starts experimenting with 8-tracks earlier than we thought--but doesn't OWN one yet.

Brian starts being able to bring 8-tracks back with him from CBS to Western to mix.

Western gets a permanent 3M in time for when we know they had it.



This plays on a question I once had--

I noticed that many of the CBS-tracked Lead vocals were recorded dry, and yet clearly have loads of reverb on them in the final mixes.  I wondered if Brian did that because he preferred the sound of Western's chambers.  Then somebody pointed out to me that they would have to have had mixed them (awesome use of the English language there, thank you) at CBS on the 8-track since that was the only one.  Maybe I was on to something originally?

Sounds plausible to me. did Western have a board capable of handling 8 at this time? It was a 12-channel board, right?

There's also something I touched upon in another thread somewhere, re: Where was Pet Sounds mixed? Some anecdotes seem to suggest it was mixed in a single session (Fred Vail, etc.), yet we know it had 4 & 8 track, and was recorded at various studios, etc ... If it were mixed in a single session, it would have to have been Columbia, supposedly the only studio w/ 8 & 4-track. Yet Steve Hoffman talks about the 'step' fades on the board at Western. He said that some of the Pet Sounds tracks (and I've also heard this on some Summer Days tracks) have the '2db steps' or something, essentially the fades are not smooth, they go in steps and end kind of abruptly. The problem is these fades have been 'fixed' by most mastering/cutting engineers on most pressings (vinyl and CD), but not all. My theory was that the 'step' pots were actually on the Columbia board (and Hoffman mistakenly assumed it was Western), since I noticed the step fades on songs that were cut on 8-track ... specifically I recall 'Here Today' and 'God Only Knows'. Maybe Mark L. knows if the Western board has the step faders or not?

Can someone write out a list of Summer Days and Pet Sounds tracks and which ones were 4 and which ones were 8 and where they were recorded? I don't have any info handy. I can listen to some old vinyl and try to figure it out (I have a few different pressings).

In any case, if we can determine that the songs w/ 'step' fades were all 8-track recordings, then we can presume that they were mixed at Columbia, and the 4-track songs were mixed at Western.

THEN, if we can find any vintage late '66 or '67 mixes that were recorded on 8-track WITHOUT the step fades, then we know those were mixed at Western, from 8-track.

You follow me ?!?

[DonnyL]

come to think of it, I think 'Darlin' and some other Wild Honey tracks have the step fades, anyone know where that was mixed?

I just find it weird that so many '65-'66 tracks would have been mixed at Columbia ...