New Beach Boys 2012 Remasters!

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Just got my CDs from CDBANQ.  Good Vibrations is a big disappointment .  Other than the separation of the vocals, everything else is inferior to many of the mono-vocal-extracted fan mixes I've heard:  the instrumental backing track released a few years ago is much clearer and less compressed, and the verses have serious phasing issues.  If someone (hint hint) is talented enough to extract only those vocals that have been newly separated (and keeping the lead vocal in the verses mono), I think it's now possible to create a pretty good stereo single version.

everyone says these mixes are bad. I know Mark Linnet is one of the few allowed access to the tapes, but c'mon it seems like some dedicated fans could do a better job. Why not let them rather than bugger everything up?

Don't get me wrong, very grateful and glad on behalf of the band and its legacy, but does that necessary mean we should be happy with a mediocre product when someone else could do a perhaps even significantly better job? I'd hand the job to the guy who did Smile AD. He's got his hands on the ball.

Don't go confusing mixing and mastering choices with doing a bad job.  While I question the decision to do these digital extractions from mono, and I question plenty of mix decisions that have been made, it's not coherent to suggest that someone is doing a bad job.  I have yet to hear a digital extraction from mono that sounds good, be it by some fan or by a pro.  And let us not forget that Mark is a professional.  How many people doing fan mixes have ever even seen analog tape, much less rehabilitated 45 year old tape to get it into playable condition?

I'm fine with vigorous debate over mixing decisions, mastering decisions...choice that have been made.  But to question Mark's ability here is wrong.  This is the same guy that has been one of two people in this world who have cared enough about the Beach Boys catalog to put up with the most ridiculous shenanigans from record labels.  Mark is a student of the Beach Boys and has as good an understanding of their recordings as anybody.  He's a good engineer.  I'm very disappointed he's doing the digital extractions, and I hate it when he pans vocals to near-mono on these stereo mixes.  But to question his ability in his craft is just mean.

I agree with you that Mark is a pro and I've never had any problem with his work.  But of course we can question his or anyone else's abilities.  You can question anything you want.  That is what opinions are for. 

Never said you couldn't.  I said you shouldn't do it here, because it's tasteless and mean.  I know I'm not going to stop it, but I have to keep protesting because I ruined some good opportunities because of my own tasteless and mean remarks about Mark, back in the day, when I ended up spending time with him.

[Awesoman]

Don't go confusing mixing and mastering choices with doing a bad job.  While I question the decision to do these digital extractions from mono, and I question plenty of mix decisions that have been made, it's not coherent to suggest that someone is doing a bad job.  I have yet to hear a digital extraction from mono that sounds good, be it by some fan or by a pro.  And let us not forget that Mark is a professional.  How many people doing fan mixes have ever even seen analog tape, much less rehabilitated 45 year old tape to get it into playable condition?

I'm fine with vigorous debate over mixing decisions, mastering decisions...choice that have been made.  But to question Mark's ability here is wrong.  This is the same guy that has been one of two people in this world who have cared enough about the Beach Boys catalog to put up with the most ridiculous shenanigans from record labels.  Mark is a student of the Beach Boys and has as good an understanding of their recordings as anybody.  He's a good engineer.  I'm very disappointed he's doing the digital extractions, and I hate it when he pans vocals to near-mono on these stereo mixes.  But to question his ability in his craft is just mean.

I agree with you that Mark is a pro and I've never had any problem with his work.  But of course we can question his or anyone else's abilities.  You can question anything you want.  That is what opinions are for.  

Never said you couldn't.  I said you shouldn't do it here, because it's tasteless and mean.  I know I'm not going to stop it, but I have to keep protesting because I ruined some good opportunities because of my own tasteless and mean remarks about Mark, back in the day, when I ended up spending time with him.

Well you kinda did, but I'll let it slide.  :-)  

But seriously, Mark is a big boy.  Criticism (constructive or not) isn't going to kill him.  I don't know what comments scared him off of these message forums but in all the years I've posted here, I'm pretty sure most posters here enjoy his work for the most part.  Besides, there is no one here that is more shat on than Phil Cohen, and yet he still manages to keep posting here almost every day.  If Phil can take the heat, what's Mark's excuse?  

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Don't go confusing mixing and mastering choices with doing a bad job.  While I question the decision to do these digital extractions from mono, and I question plenty of mix decisions that have been made, it's not coherent to suggest that someone is doing a bad job.  I have yet to hear a digital extraction from mono that sounds good, be it by some fan or by a pro.  And let us not forget that Mark is a professional.  How many people doing fan mixes have ever even seen analog tape, much less rehabilitated 45 year old tape to get it into playable condition?

I'm fine with vigorous debate over mixing decisions, mastering decisions...choice that have been made.  But to question Mark's ability here is wrong.  This is the same guy that has been one of two people in this world who have cared enough about the Beach Boys catalog to put up with the most ridiculous shenanigans from record labels.  Mark is a student of the Beach Boys and has as good an understanding of their recordings as anybody.  He's a good engineer.  I'm very disappointed he's doing the digital extractions, and I hate it when he pans vocals to near-mono on these stereo mixes.  But to question his ability in his craft is just mean.

I agree with you that Mark is a pro and I've never had any problem with his work.  But of course we can question his or anyone else's abilities.  You can question anything you want.  That is what opinions are for. 

Never said you couldn't.  I said you shouldn't do it here, because it's tasteless and mean.  I know I'm not going to stop it, but I have to keep protesting because I ruined some good opportunities because of my own tasteless and mean remarks about Mark, back in the day, when I ended up spending time with him.

Well you kinda did, but I'll let it slide.  :-) 

But seriously, Mark is a big boy.  Criticism (constructive or not) isn't going to kill him.  I don't know what comments scared him off from these message forums but in all the years I've posted here, I'm pretty sure most posters here enjoy his work for the most part.  Besides, there is no one here that is more shat on than Phil Cohen, and he still manages to keep posting here almost every day.  If Phil can take the heat, what's Mark's excuse? 

Well, Phil is an unusually robust specimen.  I don't think anybody needs an excuse to stop hanging around assholes.  If you told me that I was bad at what I've devoted my life to doing, I'd leave.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Of course, if I spent less time here I probably would be better at what I do.

[Awesoman]

Well, Phil is an unusually robust specimen.  I don't think anybody needs an excuse to stop hanging around assholes.  If you told me that I was bad at what I've devoted my life to doing, I'd leave.

Well a little self-confidence will remedy that situation.    

I can only imagine how cool it would be to have Mark's career: a dream job (that pays well) where you get nearly unlimited access to mixing and mastering your favorite band's music.  Some nerd on a message forum doesn't like my work?  Yeah, I'll get to crying myself to sleep about it after I'm finishing my deluxe steak and banging my hot wife.  

[ontor pertawst]

I'd leave too, really. My nervous system is apparently mounted outside my body and the tiniest shreds of "constructive criticism" bop around my brain for years. Which isn't especially constructive. Advice from friends and artists I trust is one thing, but some dick bolstered by anonymity on the internet? Right, I'll file that under not interested.  Who wants to feel depressed about past work you ALREADY have second third and fourth thoughts about, you probably heard the criticism a million times before by YOURSELF but didn't have the time, money, or gumption to get it done that way.... and you're most likely working on NEW STUFF, so better to concentrate on that.

Of course, sometimes the scorn makes you feel better: "well, if they're getting riled up, maybe I did something right! It must be working!"

I'm a huge hypocrite, of course and snip at people's art, but boy... so much work goes into even a piece of sh*t. Something Joel Hodgson told me after trying and failing to make a film after years of riffing (good naturedly!) on others comes to mind: "It turns out making a movie is really, really hard."

Telling other people how do it after the fact is pretty easy, tho.

[EgoHanger1966]

In regards to aeijtzche's opinions about near mono vocals on a stereo remix, I actually really like centered vocals when the instruments are spread wide left and right. When Brian doubled those vocals, didn't he mean for both of the overdubs to go hand and hand with each other, to blend alongside each other to create a fuller vocal sound? When you split these up even the least bit, you get a higher clarity on each vocal track but you take away from Brian's vision and original intent.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

In regards to aeijtzche's opinions about near mono vocals on a stereo remix, I actually really like centered vocals when the instruments are spread wide left and right. When Brian doubled those vocals, didn't he mean for both of the overdubs to go hand and hand with each other, to blend alongside each other to create a fuller vocal sound? When you split these up even the least bit, you get a higher clarity on each vocal track but you take away from Brian's vision and original intent.

Ideally, we'd just get vocal only mixes of everything.  The reason I like wide vocals is that, without a vocal-only mix, that is the highest clarity on the vocals you can get.  I don't listen to full stereo remixes for pleasure--I listen to learn or to hear detail.

[PhilCohen]

In regards to aeijtzche's opinions about near mono vocals on a stereo remix, I actually really like centered vocals when the instruments are spread wide left and right. When Brian doubled those vocals, didn't he mean for both of the overdubs to go hand and hand with each other, to blend alongside each other to create a fuller vocal sound? When you split these up even the least bit, you get a higher clarity on each vocal track but you take away from Brian's vision and original intent.

And I would note that on most 1960's stereo mixes of other vocal harmony groups(for example The Byrds & The Hollies), that the vocals are in the center and only the instruments are in stereo. Those groups often recorded 2 or 3 tracks of identical vocals; not to spread them in the stereo "picture", but to merge them in the center for a thicker sound.

[PhilCohen]

It's unfortunate that Mark Linett(or others in The Beach Boys' organization) don't look at this forum any more. Some of the problems that audiophiles claim to hear(most of which I don't hear) in the stereo remix of "Summer Days...and Summer Nights!" on the Japanese CD may have occurred after the digital masters left Mark Linett's hands, yet there is no way to let him know before EMI releases the discs in other territories. These new CD's represent how this timeless music will be preserved for listeners of the future. That's unfortunate.

[Zach95]

Woo! I finally received my cd's, not that anyone was particularly worried. But if you were, fear not, they have arrived.  

[Shady]

Woo! I finally received my cd's, not that anyone was particularly worried. But if you were, fear not, they have arrived.  

That's cool, it would suck to see anyone get ripped off

[EgoHanger1966]

In regards to aeijtzche's opinions about near mono vocals on a stereo remix, I actually really like centered vocals when the instruments are spread wide left and right. When Brian doubled those vocals, didn't he mean for both of the overdubs to go hand and hand with each other, to blend alongside each other to create a fuller vocal sound? When you split these up even the least bit, you get a higher clarity on each vocal track but you take away from Brian's vision and original intent.

And I would note that on most 1960's stereo mixes of other vocal harmony groups(for example The Byrds & The Hollies), that the vocals are in the center and only the instruments are in stereo. Those groups often recorded 2 or 3 tracks of identical vocals; not to spread them in the stereo "picture", but to merge them in the center for a thicker sound.

Most of The Hollies 60s stereo mixes usually don't have vocals in the center (heck, most of them don't have anything in the center at all!), but I understand the logic.

[PhilCohen]

In regards to aeijtzche's opinions about near mono vocals on a stereo remix, I actually really like centered vocals when the instruments are spread wide left and right. When Brian doubled those vocals, didn't he mean for both of the overdubs to go hand and hand with each other, to blend alongside each other to create a fuller vocal sound? When you split these up even the least bit, you get a higher clarity on each vocal track but you take away from Brian's vision and original intent.

And I would note that on most 1960's stereo mixes of other vocal harmony groups(for example The Byrds & The Hollies), that the vocals are in the center and only the instruments are in stereo. Those groups often recorded 2 or 3 tracks of identical vocals; not to spread them in the stereo "picture", but to merge them in the center for a thicker sound.

Most of The Hollies 60s stereo mixes usually don't have vocals in the center (heck, most of them don't have anything in the center at all!), but I understand the logic.

The ones done on 2-track have nothing in the middle. I was refering to the recordings made on 4-track. But to hear how those 2 or 3 tracks  of vocals would sound separated in the stereo picture, listen to the 1993 U.S.A. 3-CD set "30th Anniversary Collection"(for example "Baby That's All" or "If I Needed Someone"), whose 1993 Ron Furmanek remixes EMI's London executives so vehemently disapproved of, that with the exception of 2 or 3 songs, the 1993 remixes never appeared on a UK CD. Several remixes of 1967 tracks proved so upsetting to those executives that those remixes never made it onto "30th Anniversary Collection"(so those tracks appear via 1960's stereo mixes)

[LetHimRun]

In regards to aeijtzche's opinions about near mono vocals on a stereo remix, I actually really like centered vocals when the instruments are spread wide left and right. When Brian doubled those vocals, didn't he mean for both of the overdubs to go hand and hand with each other, to blend alongside each other to create a fuller vocal sound? When you split these up even the least bit, you get a higher clarity on each vocal track but you take away from Brian's vision and original intent.

You are exactly right. When I listen to the earlier BB songs that have the stereo vocals, you can especially hear the lead vocals that were doubled that have since been separated into left-right channels. Instead of blending to give a more full effect, you get a weak lead that is coming from two sides that usually aren't identical (because they were different takes obviously). Some are worse than others.

[Ebb and Flow]

In regards to aeijtzche's opinions about near mono vocals on a stereo remix, I actually really like centered vocals when the instruments are spread wide left and right. When Brian doubled those vocals, didn't he mean for both of the overdubs to go hand and hand with each other, to blend alongside each other to create a fuller vocal sound? When you split these up even the least bit, you get a higher clarity on each vocal track but you take away from Brian's vision and original intent.

Brian didn't really intend for this music to be heard in stereo in the first place.  His definitive statement on how these songs should sound has been in the can for 40+ years, so pretty much any new stereo mix prepared is going to "take away from Brian's vision and original intent".

[PhilCohen]

In regards to aeijtzche's opinions about near mono vocals on a stereo remix, I actually really like centered vocals when the instruments are spread wide left and right. When Brian doubled those vocals, didn't he mean for both of the overdubs to go hand and hand with each other, to blend alongside each other to create a fuller vocal sound? When you split these up even the least bit, you get a higher clarity on each vocal track but you take away from Brian's vision and original intent.

You are exactly right. When I listen to the earlier BB songs that have the stereo vocals, you can especially hear the lead vocals that were doubled that have since been separated into left-right channels. Instead of blending to give a more full effect, you get a weak lead that is coming from two sides that usually aren't identical (because they were different takes obviously). Some are worse than others.

That was the only type of stereo possible from 3-track recordings(one track of instruments & two tracks of vocals). This is why Phil Spector didn't want his 3-track productions to be released in stereo.

[LetHimRun]

In regards to aeijtzche's opinions about near mono vocals on a stereo remix, I actually really like centered vocals when the instruments are spread wide left and right. When Brian doubled those vocals, didn't he mean for both of the overdubs to go hand and hand with each other, to blend alongside each other to create a fuller vocal sound? When you split these up even the least bit, you get a higher clarity on each vocal track but you take away from Brian's vision and original intent.

You are exactly right. When I listen to the earlier BB songs that have the stereo vocals, you can especially hear the lead vocals that were doubled that have since been separated into left-right channels. Instead of blending to give a more full effect, you get a weak lead that is coming from two sides that usually aren't identical (because they were different takes obviously). Some are worse than others.

That was the only type of stereo possible from 3-track recordings(one track of instruments & two tracks of vocals). This is why Phil Spector didn't want his 3-track productions to be released in stereo.

Good info. I knew it had to be something in the way it was recorded. It is why I prefer the mono.

[DonnyL]

In regards to aeijtzche's opinions about near mono vocals on a stereo remix, I actually really like centered vocals when the instruments are spread wide left and right. When Brian doubled those vocals, didn't he mean for both of the overdubs to go hand and hand with each other, to blend alongside each other to create a fuller vocal sound? When you split these up even the least bit, you get a higher clarity on each vocal track but you take away from Brian's vision and original intent.

additionally, when stereo mixes are summed to mono (which these inevitably will be at some point), the elements in the center will be slightly louder than the elements (especially hard) panned L-R. Since the Beach Boys are known as a vocal band, it makes sense to center the most important elements.

speaking of which, this is also partially why albums like 'Rubber Soul' have no center information ... so that they sum to mono correctly, without phase or balance issues.

[DonnyL]

In regards to aeijtzche's opinions about near mono vocals on a stereo remix, I actually really like centered vocals when the instruments are spread wide left and right. When Brian doubled those vocals, didn't he mean for both of the overdubs to go hand and hand with each other, to blend alongside each other to create a fuller vocal sound? When you split these up even the least bit, you get a higher clarity on each vocal track but you take away from Brian's vision and original intent.

You are exactly right. When I listen to the earlier BB songs that have the stereo vocals, you can especially hear the lead vocals that were doubled that have since been separated into left-right channels. Instead of blending to give a more full effect, you get a weak lead that is coming from two sides that usually aren't identical (because they were different takes obviously). Some are worse than others.

That was the only type of stereo possible from 3-track recordings(one track of instruments & two tracks of vocals). This is why Phil Spector didn't want his 3-track productions to be released in stereo.

That's not really true man ... lots of other options there. a lot of Spector's stuff was not recorded that way anyway. Some of those 3-track masters are: 1-vocals, 2-track, 3-strings. and many were indeed released in stereo. and it's not the reason Spector didn't like stereo !

[Freddie French-Pounce]

Anyone else want the new stereo albums on vinyl  Ah, if only...

[runnersdialzero]

Does a doubled lead vocal hard-panned left and right drive anyone else up a fucking wall when listening with headphones? It's just... erm, very distracting. Not a fan of the technique.

[SloopJohnB]

Does a doubled lead vocal hard-panned left and right drive anyone else up a f***ing wall when listening with headphones? It's just... erm, very distracting. Not a fan of the technique.

You're not alone.

[Cabinessenceking]

It's unfortunate that Mark Linett(or others in The Beach Boys' organization) don't look at this forum any more. Some of the problems that audiophiles claim to hear(most of which I don't hear) in the stereo remix of "Summer Days...and Summer Nights!" on the Japanese CD may have occurred after the digital masters left Mark Linett's hands, yet there is no way to let him know before EMI releases the discs in other territories. These new CD's represent how this timeless music will be preserved for listeners of the future. That's unfortunate.

why is he no longer watching the board? Much of what I say is less informed and more inquisitive, but there are some people who really know the stuff here. Would it not be an asset to Mark for him to maintain a presence here given that this board is the one with most BB fans?

[Ebb and Flow]

Does a doubled lead vocal hard-panned left and right drive anyone else up a f***ing wall when listening with headphones? It's just... erm, very distracting. Not a fan of the technique.

Why do the vocals have to be either hard panned or folded down?  Surely there's some middle-ground?  It's not the 60's...subtle, modern mixes can and should be made.

Much of the tracks from Summer Days Linnet has mixed have stereo vocals with subtle separation.  The songs where the vocals were recorded on 8-track (Salt Lake City, Let Him Run Wild and You're So Good To Me) sound great and full of life in comparison to some of the lifeless, digital reverb-drenched remixes that have been prepared for Today!.  Obviously with seven tracks of vocals you have more to work with, but there's no reason why that subtle mixing approach can't be applied to music that was recorded literally months before.  My two cents.