Rolling Stone on the Mike/Bruce South American Shows

[Howie Edelson]

I don't know if it's getting old or not. Is saying that something's truly great and cool and unique a thing that gets old on a Beach Boys message board for people that not only own So Tough -- but DISCUSS IT??? I also don't know if you've managed to see for yourself any of the reunion shows where David Marks is blowing the crowds away on every number he's featured in. Do you actually disagree with that??? I'm I imagining that??? I also don't know if you can recognize the clear and distinct difference between Alan Jardine in the 1980's and '90s, who was often distracted, disengaged, pissed off at his wedge monitor and the sound mixer -- because that WAS the demeanor of the guy you see singing his b alls off, clapping, grinning, and kibitzing with fans onstage now.

[Jonathan Blum]

I love Mike but if he booked these shows while still on tour with Brian it shows a serious lack of class

If he booked them at a time when the reunion was absolutely positively going to end by late September, then there's nothing untoward about it.

Brian wanting to continue on after that appears to be a case of him changing his mind.  And the problem is, there's an awful lot of stuff you'd have to rearrange for a Brian Wilson whim.

I'm sure the South American promoters would like the idea of getting the full band if they're available now -- but can they afford to cover flying twice as many band members down, and all the extra expenses of five rock stars rather than two?  Would they get a big enough crowd to support it?  If they did, would they have to break their contract with the venue they'd booked to go to a bigger one?  And are the backing band members even still available, or do they have other commitments?

The important thing, though, is that this doesn't actually preclude the full band doing another leg of their tour a bit later on...

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Jim V.]

I think David is absolutely awesome, but I don't think he's a showstopper. Nobody I saw at my show was "blown away" by David Marks. He was solid, just like the rest of the band, and they put on a great show. But nobody especially stood out. I mean, obviously I paid a bit more attention to Brian, since he's Brian, but regardless it took all five Beach Boys plus the sidemen to make that a great show. But seriously, he played some great guitar at the show I saw, and I definitely enjoyed watching him. But it's not like I heard anybody after the show saying, "hey man, you know that David Marks, he kicked ass." Or even, "hey that dude on guitar was really good." But if you'd hear some of the people from the David Marks admiration society on here, you'd think that the legitimacy of the reunion and the reunion shows boils down to him. I find it off putting, because, while I feel the man deserves praise for his work, it feels like it's being piled on a bit more by a certain few because maybe they've written a book on him or have gotten to know him and have found out he's a great guy. But it kinda strikes me the same way a parent would tell people how their son won the little league game for his team, failing to mention he was actually just a relief pitcher for two batters in the seventh inning. The kid contributed all right, but the parent kinda stretched his role.

Overall, I just kinda find it insulting to Mr. Marks. It seems like all the praise now is trying to make up for the lack of it from '64 til now.

[Wirestone]

So what if it is?

[Wirestone]

There's also a real possibility here that Brian is playing his own game. He is, if nothing else, a master of passive aggression. I think he's come to realize -- after a decade or more of supposing otherwise -- that he could be a Beach Boy. And not just any Beach Boy, but the linchpin of the band again. Sure, it might not be for long, but for another few years at least. And this article -- and conversations like the one he had with Ray Lawlor -- might just be the way he's sending his signals now.

Given the BRI has to vote to award Mike the license, Brian's feelings on this matter are indeed important. If I recall correctly, there are four voting members of BRI -- Mike, Brian, Al and Carl's estate. The vote on the license has so far been 3-1 (with Al being the 1). If it's 2-2, that changes matters rather radically.

[Phoenix]

They need a new licensing arrangement that suits their higher profile now.

This.  Big time.

[SMiLE Brian]

Well, I guess I'd wade into this discussion. Firstly, I gotta say, none of us really know what is going on behind the scenes, but I will say it seems odd that Brian seems like he has happily returned to being a full-time Beach Boy, while Mike and Bruce seem eager to get past this "artier" tour and get back to the "meat and potatoes" county fair circuit. Wouldn't it be a shame if we didn't get a new Beach Boys album and possibly even more shows from this lineup because once again Mike put what he thought to be commerce ahead of art. However, if Brian is actually cool with the Mike and Bruce show doing these shows while the full, real group isn't out there then its fine.

However,I personally think that as long as Brian wants to keep The Beach Boys active as a recording unit that the touring group should accordingly be Brian (if he wants to tour), Mike, Al, Bruce, and David. I'm sure the guys are doing pretty decently on this tour, and if Brian wants to put out a new Beach Boys album every one or two years, then Mike should treat the band like an ongoing artistic group and not a jukebox touring revue. Just my opinion though.

True, the new LP is devoid of any true Wilson/Love collaborations, but Mike has Brian back -- along with show stealing David Marks and a revitalized Al Jardine, who's finally learned how to work a crowd and enjoy performing during his long hiatus away.

On nearly everything else you are spot on, but that statement bugs me.

Ugh, the David Marks cheerleading is kinda getting outta hand. Show stealing? I don't know about that. And that coupled with the back-handed compliment to Al ("...finally learned how to work a crowd..."), it's getting old.

Agreed, I am tired of people not respecting Al, though David has been a great addition to the tour.

[Howie Edelson]

That's cool if you wanna spend the show watching Brian.

The concerts I went to all had people saying things like, quote, "David is the only Beach Boy that actually worked on his craft all these years. Can you imagine if the Beach Boys had a great guitarist all this time, Imagine what that would've done for their music?" and "Did you notice -- barring Bruce's 3 minutes for 'Disney Girls' -- David is the ONLY audible instrument from the front line in the house mix?" and "What a tone on this guy!" and "Without David, it's just like a souped-up 1985," and on one occasion, "Is that Brian Wilson or a sad panda?"

David brings the cool, the history and the chops.

[Shark]

While I'm not going to pretend to know all about the finances of this tour, I do know for a fact that some venues (a number of the casino shows) the band is getting a flat fee to play. This is regardless of how many tickets are sold. The band then gets the merch take minus what the venue gets (usually 10 percent). While the overhead, I agree, is more on this tour, remember that for a lot of shows, the venue puts the band up in hotels ( depending on what the contract is) and supplies food and beverage. The Beach Boys are commanding a much larger fee to play compared to just Mike and Bruce, so for these shows, I am willing to bet that Mike is making more. Again, I can't speak for every show on this tour and every venue.

[Autotune]

David is a great asset to the group and a marvelous team player.

Showstopper is an overstatement, but then we divert from the topic.

[tpesky]

Dave and Al have both been tremendous on this tour.  No disrespect to Howie because he deserves a lot I wouldn't use show stopper either,   but Pet Sounds for example really really exceeded my expectations. I never really cared for the song but hearing the band and Dave do it live especially Dave's guitar really changed my outlook on it! This is just one example of Dave adding to the show instrumentally and vocally I love his Getcha Back and ya the BB haven't had a great lead guitarist since a younger Carl Wilson. By the late 90's Carl's leads were not quite the same.
I feel like Al hasn't enjoyed performing this much with the BB since sometime in the 80's.  He did have a noticeable change in demeanor somewhere around the beginning of the cheerleaders for a variety of reasons  (with the the exception of the box set tour) You got the happy Al touring solo and this has carried over into the BB.
As for the South American fiasco I'm not sure what to think . I can't believe Mike would be so willing to go back to him and Bruce like that but who knows with these guys?!?! I hope something cool and positive emerges after this tour . An arrangement that allows the guys to be comfortable, sounds as good as this tour, and doesn't tarnish the legacy. This tour has helped to erase some of the tarnish crap off the silver of the BB legacy that had been building up for awhile.

[Jim V.]

David is a great asset to the group and a marvelous team player.

Showstopper is an overstatement, but then we divert from the topic.

I totally agree with that statement.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I love Mike but if he booked these shows while still on tour with Brian it shows a serious lack of class

If he booked them at a time when the reunion was absolutely positively going to end by late September, then there's nothing untoward about it.

Small but salient point - the original cut-off for the C50 shows was mid-August.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Well, I guess I'd wade into this discussion. Firstly, I gotta say, none of us really know what is going on behind the scenes...

True, but a handful posting here - no names, no pack drill, but see where my eyes rest... -  have a more informed handle on events than the majority of other posters here do. Listen to these people, should they elect to speak.

[Jon Stebbins]

I think David is absolutely awesome, but I don't think he's a showstopper. Nobody I saw at my show was "blown away" by David Marks. He was solid, just like the rest of the band, and they put on a great show. But nobody especially stood out. I mean, obviously I paid a bit more attention to Brian, since he's Brian, but regardless it took all five Beach Boys plus the sidemen to make that a great show. But seriously, he played some great guitar at the show I saw, and I definitely enjoyed watching him. But it's not like I heard anybody after the show saying, "hey man, you know that David Marks, he kicked ass." Or even, "hey that dude on guitar was really good." But if you'd hear some of the people from the David Marks admiration society on here, you'd think that the legitimacy of the reunion and the reunion shows boils down to him. I find it off putting, because, while I feel the man deserves praise for his work, it feels like it's being piled on a bit more by a certain few because maybe they've written a book on him or have gotten to know him and have found out he's a great guy. But it kinda strikes me the same way a parent would tell people how their son won the little league game for his team, failing to mention he was actually just a relief pitcher for two batters in the seventh inning. The kid contributed all right, but the parent kinda stretched his role.

Overall, I just kinda find it insulting to Mr. Marks. It seems like all the praise now is trying to make up for the lack of it from '64 til now.

I know David is not insulted by the fact that some people are enthusiastic about his work and take the time to say so freely. Not in the least. He's surprised that after all of these decades of being relegated to the "a quick fill-in" for Al" guy...that a growing number of people now finally understand he was one of the original Beach Boys, a significant part of their genesis, and are happy to see him back. He's appreciative and would never be insulted by getting a little extra credit, its been nearly non-existent for him until now.

I think it might be a little early for the David Marks-is-getting-too-much-praise Police to swoop in and keep things from tilting into an overly friendly David direction. I'm like falling out of my chair laughing at this! The guy is wrongly described as virtually meaningless to the Beach Boys history by nearly every journalist, Beach Boys book, rock bio, documentary, and fan for 40 plus years...and now a dozen people on a message board are psyched and giving him big props and its just too much praise to handle. Insulting even. 

I can remember when I began to toss the idea of writing a book about David around about eight years ago, and a very important Beach Boys insider, who still works for the BB's operation heard about my plan...and said to me, "what do you want to write a book about that loser for?" I tried to explain that he wasn't a loser, but actually a really intelligent guy who was a great musician, and had done a lot of cool things in his years away from the Beach Boys...have you heard "I Wanna Cry"? The Moon LP's? Colours?  Anyway, the person blew me off, didn't want to hear about it, like so many people did for years and years and years when they heard the name David Marks. Like they knew something, because they had swallowed a myth and were comfortable with it. I knew my hunch about him was right when i talked to Brian and Al and Mike about him seven or eight years back. They all credited him more than anyone with a faulty Beach Boys education could handle. They were not being insulting, just truthful.

My positions regarding Dave have nothing to do with the fact that "maybe I've written a book about him"...the book is a result of learning a new perspective on an old story, and one that brings more truth to the history. That chicken came after the egg. I've been consistent for a long time. I'm happy Dave is getting some praise this year. He's appreciative of everyone who has said nice things, and he's working hard to do his best, and won't be insulted if you call him a show-stopper. He'll just grin and say thank you.

[Wah Wah Wah Ooooo]

Nice Reply, Jon. 

When I saw the band in Cincy a few weeks ago, both the person I was with and I couldn't stop talking about how much David Marks added to the show. I constantly found myself watching him and being amazed at just how cool he is on stage. He's mellow and laid back, and yet brings a great energy and some kick-a** solos to the show.  Having him up there playing those early surf and car songs brings a certain level of authenticity to the tour that I don't think would be there if David weren't present. 

Rock on, David Marks.

[bgas]

I think David is absolutely awesome, but I don't think he's a showstopper. Nobody I saw at my show was "blown away" by David Marks. He was solid, just like the rest of the band, and they put on a great show. But nobody especially stood out. I mean, obviously I paid a bit more attention to Brian, since he's Brian, but regardless it took all five Beach Boys plus the sidemen to make that a great show. But seriously, he played some great guitar at the show I saw, and I definitely enjoyed watching him. But it's not like I heard anybody after the show saying, "hey man, you know that David Marks, he kicked ass." Or even, "hey that dude on guitar was really good." But if you'd hear some of the people from the David Marks admiration society on here, you'd think that the legitimacy of the reunion and the reunion shows boils down to him. I find it off putting, because, while I feel the man deserves praise for his work, it feels like it's being piled on a bit more by a certain few because maybe they've written a book on him or have gotten to know him and have found out he's a great guy. But it kinda strikes me the same way a parent would tell people how their son won the little league game for his team, failing to mention he was actually just a relief pitcher for two batters in the seventh inning. The kid contributed all right, but the parent kinda stretched his role.

Overall, I just kinda find it insulting to Mr. Marks. It seems like all the praise now is trying to make up for the lack of it from '64 til now.

I know David is not insulted by the fact that some people are enthusiastic about his work and take the time to say so freely. Not in the least. He's surprised that after all of these decades of being relegated to the "a quick fill-in" for Al" guy...that a growing number of people now finally understand he was one of the original Beach Boys, a significant part of their genesis, and are happy to see him back. He's appreciative and would never be insulted by getting a little extra credit, its been nearly non-existent for him until now.

I think it might be a little early for the David Marks-is-getting-too-much-praise Police to swoop in and keep things from tilting into an overly friendly David direction. I'm like falling out of my chair laughing at this! The guy is wrongly described as virtually meaningless to the Beach Boys history by nearly every journalist, Beach Boys book, rock bio, documentary, and fan for 40 plus years...and now a dozen people on a message board are psyched and giving him big props and its just too much praise to handle. Insulting even. 

I can remember when I began to toss the idea of writing a book about David around about eight years ago, and a very important Beach Boys insider, who still works for the BB's operation heard about my plan...and said to me, "what do you want to write a book about that loser for?" I tried to explain that he wasn't a loser, but actually a really intelligent guy who was a great musician, and had done a lot of cool things in his years away from the Beach Boys...have you heard "I Wanna Cry"? The Moon LP's? Colours?  Anyway, the person blew me off, didn't want to hear about it, like so many people did for years and years and years when they heard the name David Marks. Like they knew something, because they had swallowed a myth and were comfortable with it. I knew my hunch about him was right when i talked to Brian and Al and Mike about him seven or eight years back. They all credited him more than anyone with a faulty Beach Boys education could handle. They were not being insulting, just truthful.

My positions regarding Dave have nothing to do with the fact that "maybe I've written a book about him"...the book is a result of learning a new perspective on an old story, and one that brings more truth to the history. That chicken came after the egg. I've been consistent for a long time. I'm happy Dave is getting some praise this year. He's appreciative of everyone who has said nice things, and he's working hard to do his best, and won't be insulted if you call him a show-stopper. He'll just grin and say thank you.

Jon--  Small thought/question: have you had a chance to speak again with "the insider" in the years since, and has their opinion of Dave changed?

[LdC]

I often wondered when Al started touring a few years ago with Brian, that maybe at that point, if he stayed a change in the licensing of the names "The Beach Boys" was needed, and I don't think many would have complained if Brian had at that point reclaimed the name and legacy for himself. I could imagine Carl's estate going along with this too, but again, its all speculation on our parts.

I really think we just need to focus on the positive though, here and now and let the future take care of itself. I still am just so happy that I get to see this The Beach Boys show in Sydney and pray everything holds togther until then, and to be honest, little stories like this scare me, in that it does feel "the pot is being stirred". You just dont want anyones feelings/ego's getting hurt and thus jeapordising what we now have.

I must say though, I have always been happy seeing a Mike & Bruce Beach Boys show. The sound and quailty honestly surprised me by how good it was (even after being spoilt with Brian's band), and as some-one here already posted, for the vast majority of the "lay" fans, they really don't know or care about the intricacies of the tour line-ups. Its sad,but Mike has already proven that. You need middle aged white guys in hawain shirts and if the sound is there, then that is good enough, and let's not forget its Mike's distinctive lead vocal that distinguishes alot of the big hits.

 I think he has done a great job of keeping the "brand" out there and earning money. Let's not forget this is the only life Mike has known, he obviously love's it, and has been doing this since (taking the band out performing as lead man) 1964 with Brian's blessing. And at the end of the day,he is promoting the beautiful music of Brian & the Beach Boys, so where is the harm? Please let's not begrudge him and just celebrate what we have now. As others have said, this would not have even had happened without Mike sacrificing ALOT. Though I think they are all heroes doing the tour.Anyway, thats my 2 cents.

Ryan

[LdC]

Sorry if this has been linked elsewhere but this seems to me in direct reply to yesterdays hoopla concerning this. And it promises a new live album/dvd (thankyou GOD).

- http://www.billboard.com/news/beach-boys-talk-another-album-together-1007435152.story#/news/beach-boys-talk-another-album-together-1007435152.story