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Author Topic: Why Were Carl & Dennis So Easy To "Replace"?  (Read 11859 times)
GhostyTMRS
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« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2012, 04:56:08 PM »



I think the short answer to the question is that the 'general public' couldn't name the members of The Who, Pink Floyd, The Beach Boys etc.  In fact the only band that could have that band member name recognition from the 60's would be The Beatles, maybe the Bee Gees.


The Rolling Stones???

I would say that The Who have much greater name recognition than The BBs.

As for the Rolling Stones, I think the average person might be able to name Mick and Keith an that's about it. Rock music has fallen so far down in popularity this past decade so it has fewer fans. I think Generation Y would have an easier time naming classic rappers than rock musicians. There was a funny YouTube video last year that showed 20 somethings attempting to name the Beatles. Most of the responses were along the lines of "Well, there's Paul McCartney....and....oh, John Lennon and....I don't know".

In a way, being a rock fan these days is sort of like being a Star Trek fan.     
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« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2012, 05:04:25 PM »

Bill Wyman, Charlie Watts, Ronnie Wood and Brian Jones are all more known names than the majority of The BBs though.
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« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2012, 05:14:07 PM »

Now given all that I'll ask the question: how successful has his solo career been outside of his revisiting and performing The Beach Boys' classics?

Does anybody have the sales figures for these albums:

- BW 1988
- Imagination
- Gettin' In Over My Head
- What I Really Want For Christmas
- That Lucky Old Sun
- Brian Wilson Reimagines Gershwin
- In The Key Of Disney

 


IIRC, Gershwin sold around 53,000. Don't know about the others.
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« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2012, 05:25:40 PM »

Did I read somewhere that BW 88 sold around 400,000???
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Jonathan Blum
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« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2012, 06:04:14 PM »

Does anybody have the sales figures for these albums:

- BW 1988
- Imagination
- Gettin' In Over My Head
- What I Really Want For Christmas
- That Lucky Old Sun
- Brian Wilson Reimagines Gershwin
- In The Key Of Disney

Dunno about total sales figures, but chartwise they've done fairly well since Smile (#13) -- TLOS hit #21, Gershwin #26.  So compared to the album market in general, which has of course imploded since the old days, they're strong results.  Better than collections like "The Warmth of the Sun" (#40), even.

(BW88 hit #54, Imagination hit #88, and GIOMH #100.  Brian's revisitings of Beach Boys material, from "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times" through the live albums, generally haven't charted aside from Smile.  Neither have the Beach Boys', of course -- NASCAR sank without trace, and "Stars and Stripes" only made #101...)

Cheers,
Jon Blum
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JohnMill
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« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2012, 06:35:39 PM »



I think the short answer to the question is that the 'general public' couldn't name the members of The Who, Pink Floyd, The Beach Boys etc.  In fact the only band that could have that band member name recognition from the 60's would be The Beatles, maybe the Bee Gees.


The Rolling Stones???

I would say that The Who have much greater name recognition than The BBs.

As for the Rolling Stones, I think the average person might be able to name Mick and Keith an that's about it. Rock music has fallen so far down in popularity this past decade so it has fewer fans. I think Generation Y would have an easier time naming classic rappers than rock musicians. There was a funny YouTube video last year that showed 20 somethings attempting to name the Beatles. Most of the responses were along the lines of "Well, there's Paul McCartney....and....oh, John Lennon and....I don't know".

In a way, being a rock fan these days is sort of like being a Star Trek fan.     

Sad but true but then again as I mentioned the other day I'm pretty much underwhelmed with the lack of information anyone born in the nineties or afterwards has about rock and roll.  It's not their stuff and it isn't marketed to their generation on a regular enough basis where it becomes engrained in their memories.
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Rocky Raccoon
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« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2012, 09:35:41 PM »

Even during the years when Carl and Dennis were around, the live band was missing something because Brian was not part of it (and when he rejoined in the late 70s, he was barely part of it).  Brian Wilson is arguably the band's driving force at its peak and now he's in the Beach Boys with a participation he hasn't given in many years.  All but one of the songs on the new album are written by him, the most writing credits he's had on a Beach Boys album since "Love You" and he's playing live, singing leads when the song requires it and doing a pretty good job.  While there's no doubt that the band loses a little bit of something without Carl and Dennis and that they brought a lot to the group in their own way, Brian's presence in this capacity is the band's essence rather than the "brotherhood" and "harmony" (because let's face it, in their heyday, there was little of that).  And now when you see this band live, you're not only seeing a legendary group, you're also seeing its larger than life leader, and even at the group's peak, there was little chance you would see that.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 05:25:14 AM by Rocky Raccoon » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2012, 11:42:48 PM »

The music is the star of the group. I don't know that Generation Y has much to do with it. How well did the general public know the individuals in the 60s? Personally, I don't think they can replace Dennis or Carl. Carl's voice and Dennis' soul will never be replaced. However, the 5 guys on stage now are the best we can do in 2012. Well, unless they add Blondie and Ricky!
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« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2012, 06:55:36 AM »

How well did the general public know the individuals in the 60s?

Edit: (I didn't read your original question and thought you were referring to how well Beach Boys fans knew the boys in the sixties) 

Short Answer: Beach Boys fans had a decent idea about who their idols were due to the fanzines but the general public probably not so much if they weren't music fans.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 06:57:44 AM by JohnMill » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2012, 07:36:27 AM »

I always thought it was a sign that music fans new just enough about Brian for The Beach Boys Today album to say "plus three more great new songs by Brian Wilson".
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« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2012, 07:47:59 AM »

By the mid-60's the casual pop/rock music fan knew who Brian Wilson was, even before Derek Taylor's "Brian Wilson is a Genius!" campaign. Beach Boys fans knew the individual members by name of course, from photos and additional info on record sleeves as well as the numerous fanzines and similar stuff, as JohnMill already mentioned.
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BillA
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« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2012, 07:59:38 AM »

In general the Beach Boys have been pretty anonymous - it might be a cliche but "the music is the star" is true.

I would observe, though, that Carl was not so easy to replace when he took his sabbatical in 1981.  That Queen Mary show is almost as painful to hear as the Australian 1978 shows.
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« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2012, 08:40:26 AM »

Even during the years when Carl and Dennis were around, the live band was missing something because Brian was not part of it (and when he rejoined in the late 70s, he was barely part of it).  Brian Wilson is arguably the band's driving force at its peak and now he's in the Beach Boys with a participation he hasn't given in many years.  All but one of the songs on the new album are written by him, the most writing credits he's had on a Beach Boys album since "Love You" and he's playing live, singing leads when the song requires it and doing a pretty good job.  While there's no doubt that the band loses a little bit of something without Carl and Dennis and that they brought a lot to the group in their own way, Brian's presence in this capacity is the band's essence rather than the "brotherhood" and "harmony" (because let's face it, in their heyday, they're was little of that).  And now when you see this band live, you're not only seeing a legendary group, you're also seeing its larger than life leader, and even at the group's peak, there was little chance you would see that.
Rocky, how many shows did you attend between 1965 and 1975? While I will admit that I would have loved to seen Brian tour with the band, I can tell you from the shows that I attended from 1969 through 1975, that those shows were fantastic and exciting, Brian Wilson or not, just mho.
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« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2012, 09:01:53 AM »

Carl Wilson is not at all easy to replace -- just look at how many different people are taking up one or more of his parts (and role) in the current tour. Brian and Darian are singing his leads, Jeff and Al some of his parts, and that's just the vocals for starters. Plus there's still a Carl Wilson-sized place in the harmony blend that can't truly be filled because no one has a voice quite like his, not to mention his charismatic stage presence.

I miss Carl and Dennis very, very much, but I still love hearing and seeing those five guys and their cohorts going out on the road, kicking @ss onstage, and putting out new hit material. I think both Wilson brothers would have wanted it that way.


« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 09:05:15 AM by Emdeeh » Logged
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« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2012, 09:29:38 PM »

The rolling average of interaction with non-fans--

them:  "Didn't one of them die?  I thought that was Brian." 
me: No, that was Dennis.  Also, Carl died of cancer in '98.
them: completely blank stare
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« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2012, 09:31:06 PM »

The rolling average of interaction with non-fans--

them:  "Didn't one of them die?  I thought that was Brian." 
me: "No, that was Dennis.  Also, Carl died of cancer in '98."
them: completely blank stare
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« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2012, 11:45:52 PM »

Bill Wyman, Charlie Watts, Ronnie Wood and Brian Jones are all more known names than the majority of The BBs though.

I'd even add Mick Taylor to that list. He is a god among rock/blues guitarists..I really want to mention Stu as well... Cool Guy

Also, as to the original post question, I think it come's down to how well Jeff Fosskett slips into that Carl role,vocally and as band leader. Some have mentioned before how close Brian seems to him and depends on him. I really suspect that he is a (maybe the) major major reason why we get to enjoy the Beach Boys now in 2012.I'm sure he make's Brian comfortable and gives him the confidence to pull this off. I wouldn't be opposed at all to him officially joining the band at all as I think everyone owes a great debt of gratitude, and with his band history & current role,it fits & is right.

On a different note, did anyone else see Brian & MIke on The Factor? Brian was classic, when asked if he thinks of his deceased brothers angel Carl & angel Dennis during the new show's, he replied,dead-pan "yes,twice."... Grin
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« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2012, 03:15:42 AM »

As far as stuff the casual fan would know, Carl only sang lead on "God Only Knows" (where he's trying to sing like Brian's guide vocal) and part of the "Kokomo" lead.  As mentioned, there's a million people in the band covering for Carl's parts (and don't forget David Marks on guitar too).

Dennis' drumming never was an integral part of the band's sound.  Obviously a lot of the hits are studio musicians and then the live arrangements didn't have them really jamming out or anything.
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« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2012, 05:27:44 AM »

As far as stuff the casual fan would know, Carl only sang lead on "God Only Knows" (where he's trying to sing like Brian's guide vocal) and part of the "Kokomo" lead.  As mentioned, there's a million people in the band covering for Carl's parts (and don't forget David Marks on guitar too).

Dennis' drumming never was an integral part of the band's sound.  Obviously a lot of the hits are studio musicians and then the live arrangements didn't have them really jamming out or anything.

Oh Jon Stebbins, where are ya when we need ya. Obviously a lot of the hits had Dennis drumming, and Dennis' force and charisma on the drums were a very integral part of their live sound and show.
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« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2012, 06:46:12 AM »

I think their repertoire would be wider if Carl were there. Darlin', for example, would be a regular.
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« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2012, 02:02:21 PM »

I think their repertoire would be wider if Carl were there. Darlin', for example, would be a regular.

I think the reason a lot of Carl's songs aren't well-represented live since he passed away are because no one in the current incarnation does that sort of white-boy-soul thing the way Carl did. In the pre-SMiLE era he was mostly aping Brian vocally, and it's frequently difficult to distinguish between the two of them on lead vocals in that period. Wild Honey was when he started singing like Carl, with a sound totally unique in the band, and some of the songs started leaning more in that direction to take advantage of it. I can't imagine anyone else in the band singing "You Need a Mess of Help to Stand Alone" or the chorus in "The Night Was So Young" and being nearly as funky. Just little things like tending to pronounce the word "I" as "ah", like he was from the deep south or something. Al sometimes comes close, cause he's got sort of a rock 'n' roll voice, without rounded edges, so to speak. But he doesn't have Carl's soul or groove.

As far as replacing Dennis's voice, I'm gonna be honest. If he were still alive now, I'm not sure his voice could have ever been put back together again. It's taken Brian this long to get some semblance of his tone back since he blew it to hell in the mid-70s, but Dennis's voice was even farther gone in the same period, so who knows what his voice would add at this point, had he lived.
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« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2012, 02:11:11 PM »

As far as stuff the casual fan would know, Carl only sang lead on "God Only Knows" (where he's trying to sing like Brian's guide vocal) and part of the "Kokomo" lead.  As mentioned, there's a million people in the band covering for Carl's parts (and don't forget David Marks on guitar too).

Dennis' drumming never was an integral part of the band's sound.  Obviously a lot of the hits are studio musicians and then the live arrangements didn't have them really jamming out or anything.

Oh Jon Stebbins, where are ya when we need ya. Obviously a lot of the hits had Dennis drumming, and Dennis' force and charisma on the drums were a very integral part of their live sound and show.
Right Dennis wasn't the best live drummer who ever played for the Beach Boys, but he's the one who made them sound the most like the Beach Boys. Also he played in the studio on more classic BB's tracks and hits than any other drummer.
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« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2012, 02:52:57 PM »

Dennis was an absentee member off and on when he was live.  There were times he couldn't sing or he was kicked out of the band.   With Carl, I'm not sure, but I think people and the band do miss him.  However, the fact that his voice was so similar to both Brian's and Al Jardine's makes him a little easier to cover for and get a similar sound in the harmonies.  In the case of Brian, since he was the one who wrote the songs, that gives him extra rights to take Carl's leads. 

What you are saying might be true about Dennis' off-and-on time in the band.  However, during the "formative" years of the band, his stylized playing as well as his personality as the incontrovertible status as "sex symbol" make his membership indispensable, even now.  His individual work, was included in the live shows.  In my mind, that makes his work BB material.  Also, he had a number of leads in the earlier albums.

Carl is another story. Quite another story.  While one might be able to "sing his notes" on a sheet of music, one will NEVER replace the tender, soulful, and yearning quality that identifies him to the Beach Boys music.  It may be one reason why no one is singing God Only Knows.  Carl is singing it, on screen,  while his loyal fans experience the continuing impact of his absence.  And, the inclusion of his vocals on Al's Don't Fight the Sea on his Postcard from California.  It is the voice that can make one quake. The emblematic voice of rock music.  Easy to replace? Not on your life!

And that goes for Dennis as well.  He is singing his own Forever creation.  The Beach Boys are only accompanying him.  And for the first eight or so albums, both the themes he suggested to Brian to write about, as well as his actual surfing and race car driving, contributed mightily to the Band image, as well as the actual contribution to American music of the 1960's.

The concept of "replacing" one of those members is absurd.  One might fill in.  There is no replacement for either.  There is only "carrying on" in their absences.  End of story. 
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« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2012, 09:02:47 PM »

I think a lot of us would be missing them more if David or Brian were not included in this "reunion". By having Brian there the Wilson banner is certainly being flown in a hugely significant way, and David adds a certain legitimacy because he was so close as a youngster to both Carl and Dennis...he's almost like an honorary Wilson in a way. Also David brings a little of Dennis' rocker edge, as well as some of Carl's guitar vibe into the proceedings. There needs to be five. If this reunion was 4 it wouldn't feel right. I knew as soon as I saw these five together on the roof of Capitol Records back in 2006 that this combination would work. It has a natural balance. There is no replacing Dennis or Carl. But a group called the Beach Boys can exist without them if its this exact combination, take one away and its broken and the absence of CW and DW is magnified exponentially.

I really do like you, Jon, and your writing is great, but I feel like sometimes you just come off as such a David Marks cheerleader/apologist. I think he's a totally awesome guy and his playing is great, but an "honorary Wilson"? I don't know about that. If anybody is an honorary Wilson these days, it's the "dorky" (your words) Alan Jardine. The guy who openly praises "Surf's Up" and pushes for the more adventurous material on tour (along with Brian). David on the other hand, obviously has to step into line and not really try to throw any weight around or make waves like Al, because, unfortunately, he has the least important "stature" of anybody in the group. Even lower than Bruce Johnston; not that I think that should be the case, but yeah. Actually, Jeff Foskett (gulp!) probably figures in even higher. And personally, I'm not sure he makes the reunion any more legitimate than it would've been without him. The reunion was pretty much legit as long as Brian, Mike, and Alan were all there. And obviously Bruce was gonna be there, as he's been in the touring version of "The Beach Boys" for a long while now. Anyways in my opinion, David is the whipped cream to the Beach Boys reunion sundae. Blondie and Ricky woulda been on the cherry on top, because having all seven of them would just be mind blowing. Alas, five (!) including Brian is pretty great.
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« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2012, 10:20:52 PM »

I think a lot of us would be missing them more if David or Brian were not included in this "reunion". By having Brian there the Wilson banner is certainly being flown in a hugely significant way, and David adds a certain legitimacy because he was so close as a youngster to both Carl and Dennis...he's almost like an honorary Wilson in a way. Also David brings a little of Dennis' rocker edge, as well as some of Carl's guitar vibe into the proceedings. There needs to be five. If this reunion was 4 it wouldn't feel right. I knew as soon as I saw these five together on the roof of Capitol Records back in 2006 that this combination would work. It has a natural balance. There is no replacing Dennis or Carl. But a group called the Beach Boys can exist without them if its this exact combination, take one away and its broken and the absence of CW and DW is magnified exponentially.

I really do like you, Jon, and your writing is great, but I feel like sometimes you just come off as such a David Marks cheerleader/apologist. I think he's a totally awesome guy and his playing is great, but an "honorary Wilson"? I don't know about that. If anybody is an honorary Wilson these days, it's the "dorky" (your words) Alan Jardine. The guy who openly praises "Surf's Up" and pushes for the more adventurous material on tour (along with Brian). David on the other hand, obviously has to step into line and not really try to throw any weight around or make waves like Al, because, unfortunately, he has the least important "stature" of anybody in the group. Even lower than Bruce Johnston; not that I think that should be the case, but yeah. Actually, Jeff Foskett (gulp!) probably figures in even higher. And personally, I'm not sure he makes the reunion any more legitimate than it would've been without him. The reunion was pretty much legit as long as Brian, Mike, and Alan were all there. And obviously Bruce was gonna be there, as he's been in the touring version of "The Beach Boys" for a long while now. Anyways in my opinion, he is the whipped cream to the Beach Boys reunion sundae. Blondie and Ricky woulda been on the cherry on top, because having all seven of them would just be mind blowing. Alas, five (!) including Brian is pretty great.
Nicely stated. I, too, have grown a little weary of Jon's unabashed cheering for Mr. Marks. He's a great musician, no question about it, but the only guys that really needed to be there for this reunion were Brian, Mike and Al. Bruce is there because he's been a Beach Boy for several decades, and I'm glad he's part of it, but when I think 'the Beach Boys', I will always think Brian, Mike, Carl, Dennis and Al.
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