The Peter Ames Carlin Thread

[Emdeeh]

Hi, Peter. I'm about 2/3 of the way through the book and I noticed a factual error on p. 187. Yeah, it's just a little thing, but... Carl Wilson had BLUE eyes, not brown. As a matter of fact, his eyes were a light grayish sea-blue color (and totally gorgeous too, but then I'm female and I notice). Check out the cover of *Youngblood* for a good look at Carl's peepers.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Hey guys: Regarding Kalinich and the album(s) he may or may not have made with Brian. The two albums worth of material reference is based on my conversations with SK himself, who was speaking (I think, based on memory, not the notes of our conversations) of stuff they did from the late '60s through the early '70s and maybe beyond. Whether they had ever titled, sequenced or even fancied the second lp's worth of stuff as an actual album isn't swimming back into my memory just now. But what I heard was very weird and cool and, no disrespect to SK's poetry intended, but, if you just pulled out Brian's music and played that by itself....well, it was pretty abstract and strange and yet also Brian-esque and kind of mind-boggling. In my memory.

Peter, the impression I got was that Steve read the poems and then Brian improvised the music - that or it was a synchronous performance. It kinda reminds me of the spacier bits of The Fairytale.

[Peter Ames Carlin]

Funny about Carl's eyes. I'm sure I peered deeply into a portrait -- a group portrait, I seem to recall -- to make sure I was getting the brothers' eyes right. Or so I thought. Some peoples' eyes seem to change according to lighting, setting, etc. And then there's post-production tinting, which can change things either on purpose or not. I said somewhat defensively.

Regarding Murry's weight: That came initially from Rick Henn, who was describing how Murry's mood/health changed in later years. I think it was seconded by Barbara Wilson, and maybe one or two others who were on the scene at the time.

And in the Kalinich sessions...some of the music sounded improvised, other bits less so. I seem to recall there were multiple parts being played, sometimes in a professional recording studio with professional musicians. But I heard this stuff once, more than a year ago now, so my memory is vague.

 

[Emdeeh]

I got my information on Carl's eye color firsthand, having met with him and wife Gina on a number of occasions. Carl's son Justyn has the exact same color eyes as his dad, btw.  In fact, the majority of the Beach Boys (Brian, Carl, Dennis, Mike, Al, David, and Bruce) are blue-eyed.

I enjoyed the book, it's a good read.

[MBE]

It's so cool that you can answer our questions about little details. Thanks

[Rocker]

Just got the book yesterday and can't wait to start reading the whole book.

[Bicyclerider]

I"d like to make some comments about the Smile section - at least the 1966-67 Smile section, and Peter can respond or not as he sees fit.

1. At times the chronology jumps around .  This may be artistic license to tell the story a certain way, but I found it confusing.  For example,  on page 90 there's mention of David Anderle working for the Beach Boys and starting up their own label - my understanding is this was much later than February 66 (more like September 66), which is the time at which this fact is introduced.  On pages 104-6 Peter talks about Vosse, Siegel, and the CBS special, which brings us to Dec 15, 66 - and then goes back to October 22nd to talk about the Michigan concert.  On 112 we hear about the lawsuit being filed against Capitol (Feb/March 67) - and then we go back to recording Prayer in September 66. The Fire Session is discussed (Nov 31st) after the December Cabinessence lyric confrontation.  A minor quibble though.

2. Some of the descriptions of the Smile songs are not correct in terms of their 66-67 incarnations.  Heroes, when first written, did not have the Bicycle Rider section(page 94), at least as far as we know - this was first written for Worms, then was attempted to be grafted onto Heroes in Jan 67, and then finally rewritten in a minor key and recorded in February.  The earliest version of Heroes we know of for sure is the Heroes verses/I'm in Great Shape/Barnyard version played by Brian for humble Harv Miller.

Cabinessence did not have a Carl Wilson lead verse vocal(page 115) in 66-67 either, as far as we know- that was added in 68 for 20/20.

3. Peter places the Terry Melcher party at which Brian and Van Dyke met and Brian decided he would be a good lyric writer in mid July.  Most accounts put this party in February.  What's the source for the mid July date?  My understanding is that they met at the party, and over the next few months Brian has him to the house, gets him his car, and they start hanging together and write Heroes.  Then Brian puts Dumb Angel on hold while he finished Good Vibrations, and they start up again in June/July.  I assumed that Brian and Van Dyke were writing together during Brian's "six weeks off " from the studio.  He records Heroes in May, so according to Peter's chronology this would be a pre Van Dyke Heroes (the tape is wiped so we'll never know what this Heroes consisted of).

The nice thing about mid July is that there's no "gap" between deciding to work together and Brian going into the studio and recording Smile stuff like Wind Chimes and Wonderful.  Plus, Van Dyke has mentioned that he worked on Smile with Brian for about six months, or in some accounts five months.  If he stopped in December after the Love lyric confrontation, that would mean he would have had to start in July or June.  But I've always thought that was because the actual collaboration didn't start until June although they met and decided to work together months earlier.

4. Van Dyke's entrance and exit - I mentioned the conflicting reports about the entrance, now the exit - I completely agree that Van Dyke leaving in December after the confrontation with Mike makes the most sense.   It fits with how long Van Dyke has said he was collaborating with Brian, and also with his accounts of leaving after the Fire sessions (OK, that was a week before the lyric battle, but still close - up to but not including the Fire sessions is how he put it I believe).  When he returned it was not as an album lyric collaborator but as a session player and facilitator to help Brian finish the single Heroes and Villains, which had become his focus in January/February.  He was no longer "hanging out" with Brian.  His last session was actually March, not April (there was some confusion in Priore's book about Van Dyke attending Vegetables sessions in April - there's no documentation of that, and Van Dyke must be remembering the "cornucopia" Vegetables session which was earlier, likely November 66).  His last session fits in with Van Dyke remembering leaving when Brian moved and when the lawsuit was filed - in effect two "leavings" that Van has at times telescoped into one.

5. Cam asked about finishing the lyrics to Good Vibrations - my understanding is that this happened after Mike had already written lyrics and Brian wasn't completely happy with them, and Van Dyke didn't want to get in between Mike and Brian (whcih is ironic considering what happenned later).  I have interviews with Van Dyke somewhere where he says as much.

6.  The cello parts to Good Vibrations were added in June, were they not?  And if Brian was formally introduced at Melcher's part in mid July, it seems strange that Van Dyke would already be on such good terms with Brian that he would have heard the Good Vibrations work in progress and suggested to Brian to add a cello part.  Again, this suggests the Melcher party came earlier.

7.  The great lyric confrontation - this has alwyas confused me.  It seems strange that Mike questioned this lyric to the point of forcing Brian to call Van Dyke to defend the lyric - and then Mike records the lyric.  Was the lyric recorded first, and listening to it on playback Mike decided this was ridiculous, he'd had enough, and called Brian on the carpet (I guess this scenario is the most probable)?  Why not do that before you sing the lyric?  And if he did, why did he then record it after the confrontation when Van Dyke admitted he had no idea what the words meant?

I hope Peter doesn't consider all this excessive nitpicking (but isn't that what this board is all about?) - again, rest assured I found the book extremely well written and the most balanced book yet on Brian and his career.

[Peter Ames Carlin]

Hey bicycle: The narrative jumps a bit here and there in order to make thematic ideas more clear. Chronology being all well and good, and you don't want to confuse readers, etc. But since I was way more interested in the bigger themes behind what was happening and what it all meant -- I've yammered about that before -- and wanted to emphasize the feelings and ideas, I would on occasion indulge in a little back n forth in order to maintain thematic clarity.

Regarding where and when VDP and Brian met...I got that from VDP and Brian. They both talk about the party being in July. Doesn't mean they didn't meet, chat, etc in June or earlier. In fact, I'm sure they knew each other casually as felllow denizens of the L.A. recording studios. As VDP says, one reason Brian was interested in him was because he'd come up with the cellos-playing-triplets idea for 'GV,' and so Brian knew he was good. And yes, he also says that's where Brian invited him to do the 'GV' lyrics, only VDP didn't want to dive into a partially-completed thing, but rather work on something fresh and new that they would start and finish together.

Regarding the 'cabinessence' throw-down. Again, VDP tells the story very vividly, and Mike doesn't deny any of it. Does it make sense for Mike to sing it and then complain later? Maybe not. But then again, how many things in the BB story make perfect sense? And isn't it possible that a guy can sing a song, with barely concealed doubts, and then be pushed to the brink by something else -- a demand to sing it again, say, or to go on and sing even weirder words elsewhere? I have no idea what set Mike off, other than the words themselves. But it could have been anything. And as I hope the book makes evident, their whole scene was so fraught with dysfunctional patterns the Wilsons and Loves had learned from their moms and dads and their joint screwed up family, that it's foolish to sit here now and say: but gee, that doesn't make sense and therefore it couldn't have happened. Because it usually did, no matter how little sense it made.

[Rocker]

Well, now that I've read more, Peter, I have to say that I now believe to have a better understanding of what "Pet Sounds" meant to Brian. But quite early you say that Brian called the song "Carol, I know" and Asher changed it to "Caroline, no", when in fact it was the other way around, since Brian heard it as "Caroline,no". Asher mentioned this on the Pet Sounds-Audio DVD I believe. Anyway, I really love your book. I kinda hope it never ends, because it's so much fun reading it.

[Peter Ames Carlin]

Well, when it comes to 'caroline' versus 'carol i...' I paid closest attention to what I heard from the guys I was interviewing, who in this case turned out to be the guys who wrote the song. Whether someone misspoke to me, or elsewhere, or if memories change, or what, I can't tell you. But there it is.

[Cam Mott]

5. Cam asked about finishing the lyrics to Good Vibrations - my understanding is that this happened after Mike had already written lyrics and Brian wasn't completely happy with them, and Van Dyke didn't want to get in between Mike and Brian (whcih is ironic considering what happenned later).  I have interviews with Van Dyke somewhere where he says as much.

If this request occured as early as July it would seem likely the unfinished lyrics were Asher's as Carl and Mike have always said Mike's lyrics were written at the last minute.  July doesn't seem last minute to a September completion. Did Van Dyke say whether he actually saw/heard any unfinished lyrics or was the offer dismissed at the party I wonder?

7.  The great lyric confrontation - this has alwyas confused me.  It seems strange that Mike questioned this lyric to the point of forcing Brian to call Van Dyke to defend the lyric - and then Mike records the lyric.  Was the lyric recorded first, and listening to it on playback Mike decided this was ridiculous, he'd had enough, and called Brian on the carpet (I guess this scenario is the most probable)?  Why not do that before you sing the lyric?  And if he did, why did he then record it after the confrontation when Van Dyke admitted he had no idea what the words meant?

I think it more likely Van Dyke considers the point he left the project as the point at which his involvement with the project ended [a return would not be an end] which was after March 2 but I suppose only Van Dyke can answer that.

[MBE]

Yeah I think Mike finished the song the day it was cut.

[Cam Mott]

RE: "last minute": Mike Love: "Finally, I actually had the acetate and I was able to write a poem to the finished track which are the words to Good Vibration."

"The words to the verse weren't written yet, I wrote those the night before we recorded them on the way to the recording session on the freeway."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/soldonsong/songlibrary/indepth/goodvibrations.shtml

A dub of the completed track wouldn't be possible until Sept. 21 or later I don't think.

[Later that day]

Soooooo......I guess Van Dyke was asked to rewrite/finish Tony Asher's lyrics.....

[runalot]

In Peter's book, there is mention of a BB album that had a picture in its sleeve with a super-imposed pic of Brian Wilson (to appear as if he's with the band).

Anyone know what photo this is??

Thanks.

[Leo K]

Carl an the Passions...So Tough.

[runalot]

Is this the one where he's in his robe? (on the steps?)

[Jon Stebbins]

Is this the one where he's in his robe? (on the steps?)

No. Its like Leo said...the one inside the BB's LP titled Carl and the Passions So Tough. Easy to find. They cropped it from another group photo from '72 that happened to include Brian...and stuck it in one that didn't.

[HeyJude]

Is this the one where he's in his robe? (on the steps?)

No. Its like Leo said...the one inside the BB's LP titled Carl and the Passions So Tough. Easy to find. They cropped it from another group photo from '72 that happened to include Brian...and stuck it in one that didn't.

I think the original photo featuring Brian (from which Brian was cut out and stuck onto the "So Tough" pic) is used at the current placeholder page for www.beachboyscentral.com. I don't know if it's the exact same pose, but if it isn't, it's pretty close. He seems to be wearing the same shirt in both and has nearly the same pose.

[Alan Boyd]

Brian's image for the SO TOUGH group shot does indeed come from the same earlier photo that we used on the website temp page - the original artwork files for SO TOUGH, which we recently obtained from Warner Brothers, contain the original photo negatives. cropping instructions, paste-up elements and revised internegatives for the doctored group shot.

Alan

[Peter Ames Carlin]

I guess that was just another time when manipulative outsiders kept Brian from pursuing his real dream of working with Mike.

[petsite]

Had the day off due to being under the weather (sometimes wonder if the meds make me feel worse than the disease?!). Anyway, read Peter's book through for the fourth time. It still kicks butt. Great job!

One slight PS - Sunshine was recorded at Mike's house with Jeff Peters engineering, not at Western. I know, picky. picky!

Bob Flory

[Peter Ames Carlin]

I think I was told by someone (Alan Boyd? Steve Desper?) that "Sunshine" began at Western, perhaps as a cover of another song. Maybe the basic track was done there? Now I'm away from my notes and I can't remember precisely. But that's what I remember. And obviously what ended up in the book.

[c-man]

I think I was told by someone (Alan Boyd? Steve Desper?) that "Sunshine" began at Western, perhaps as a cover of another song. Maybe the basic track was done there? Now I'm away from my notes and I can't remember precisely. But that's what I remember. And obviously what ended up in the book.

"Sunshine" came from "Little Girl", a Phil Spector song that Brian recorded at Western in July '79.
I think there may have been an earlier version, from Lovesongs Studio (Mike's place), but the
version used as the basic for "Sunshine" is from Western.  I remember Bruce saying they took
a section of the "Little Girl" track, copied it several times, and spliced all the copied sections
together to make a full track, then overdubbe on top of it.

[HeyJude]

Didn't the song begin as a cover of "Little Girl"? I know there's an abortive vocal take of "Little Girl" floating around, with Carl just singing a couple of lines. It sounds like the same song as "Sunshine", just at a faster tempo with drums, and of course different lyrics. I've always assumed the "Little Girl" recording predated "Sunshine." I don't know where it was recorded, though.

[Peter Ames Carlin]

 Wow. You guys know way too much about this stuff.  I said as admiringly as possible.