The Peter Ames Carlin Thread

[HeyJude]

My biggest problem with "MIU" is the cynicism. For the first time you can hear them straining to sound like themselves. Or some earlier, more successful version of themsleves. "I wanna go surfin' where I dig it the most, in Hawaii." Help me, Jesus. For one thing, none of those guys were surfing anywhere by 1978. For another, they didn't realize that literal surfing -- the sport -- had nothing to do with why people loved their earlier work. It was the way they sang about it. . . the risk, the beauty, the promise of transformation. It was the whole dream of the west, wrapped up in one spiffy youthful New Frontier image. Trying to re-claim that world as their own in '78 was just sad....particularly because the music beneath those words was so lame and pedestrian. And ripped off, in places, from their better songs (see also: 'Go to hawaii!' nicked from 'Hawaii,' and "When I Grow Up"'s '...won't last forever' at the end of the dismal, soupy, schlocky, 'Winds of Change.' I'm not even that big a fan of "My Diane," to tell the truth, 'cause the rhythm seems so lethargic and plodding. I know others disagree, and yes, it's nice to hear BW up there on the high falsetto, which he actually pulls off with emotion, etc. etc. I'll give it another spin.

But everyone makes crappy albums eventually, and I wouldn't be quite so harsh on this one except for the cynicism thing, which was not only bad enough in this context, but even worse when you realize (in retrospect) that it was just the start of a long and dismal era in which a band that had once set standards for musical adventure and spiritual derring-do was now in the business of cashing in on their own history.

I'm sorry if that sounds too harsh. I'm calling it like I see it.

I haven't read the your book yet, but I think you make good points here. My take is that it's just less clear exactly when the cynicism crept in. I would certainly say that the downturn for the group began before "MIU." I again point to "15 Big Ones" as perhaps even more disappointing than "MIU." The production on 15BO is horrible, the cover versions are largely a cop-out (at least "MIU" is largely original material) and generally not very good, and I wouldn't rate most of the originals on 15BO as particularly more inspiring than the MIU stuff.

So I guess my problem with saying MIU is the worst is not that the album is that great. It is one of their worst. I just feel there are several other albums in their catalog that are as weak if not weaker. As I said, I haven't read your book so I don't know how you characterize the project. But some fans I think overemphasize Al and Mike's input into the album and end up downplaying the fact that Brian, whatever his condition or attitude, was responsible for a good hunk of "MIU" both in terms of songwriting and recording.

[MBE]

I like your thought here Hey Jude. Brian did do a lot on MIU and 15 Big Ones is a good comparison. MIU had better vocals and more originals but oddly I like 15 Big Ones better. I think it's because it the last album where The Beach Boys were all involved somewhat equally. Yes Dennis and Carl didn't write for it but they are at least playing and singing on I think every track. I also think the at least a half dozen songs are good. Susie is great (earlier of course), It's OK, Rock and Roll Music, Back Home, hat Same Sone, and Still of the Night are also tracks I enjoy. The rest is fairly bad but again my take on 15 Big ones is that it is the last time everyone was there and getting along half decently.

[Cam Mott]

Peter, I applaud you going directly to so many sources since it seems that many "bios" have not. I know the emphasis is on Brian but why, then, not more from the Boys' on Brian and events.

Love the beginning of the book when we hear from family/friends and, imo, is some of the fairest and deepest treatment of some of the players so far. 

[MusicLover1970]

I probably don't have a lot of fans in agreement with me, but I'd love to see Jeff Lynne produce an entire Brian album, and even write some of the material.

Please keep wannabeatle Jeff Lynne away from Brian

Maybe Rick Rubin would be the right big-name producer for Brian?

[JRauch]

Hell no. "Rick Rubin helping an old star" became a tired cliche. I think Brian is perfectly able to produce his own albums. He just needs someone like Darian, who kicks his ass.

[Rocker]

I just ordered my copy. But because I'm on vacation next week, I won't hold it in my hands til the week after next.

[Andrew G. Doe]

The thing to keep in mind when considering the merits (or not) of M. I. U. is this little phrase: "contractural obligation".

When the band signed for Caribou in early 1977, they thought that with Love You they'd fulfilled the terms of the  deal with Reprise. Turns out someone couldn't count too good and they still owed the label an album. So, you've got this multi-million deal already inked, then you're told you still owe an album to what you thought was your previous label. What to do... what to do... ah, let's fling together some old tracks and mine the past and that'll do. Let's run the album by us one more time:

She's Got Rhythm - based on a riff from a Ron Altbach instrumental from the Almost Summer soundtrack...
Come Go With Me - a 15BO discard, re-recorded by Alan later in 1976...
Hey, Little Tomboy - originally recorded during the 15BO sessions, remixed and sweetened at MIU....
Kona Coast - blatant "Hawaii" ripoff by Mike & Al...
Peggy Sue - back to the 15 BO tapebox again...
Wontcha Come Out Tonight - a new song. Not good, but new...
Sweet Sunday Kinda Love - also new, and Carl sounds bored to tears...
Belles of Paris - offensive, if original, travelogue...
Pitter Patter - new, and IMHO, none too shabby...
My Diane - recorded fall 1976 for New Album, sweetened at MIU...
Matchpoint Of Our Love - new song with inane lyric...
Winds Of Change - not even a BB song: written circa 1975 by Altbach & Eddie Tuleja, possibly when King Harvest was still a going concern.

Kinda makes 20/20 look cohesive, huh ? 

[MBE]

Andrew's review and my comments. We agree half the time

She's Got Rhythm - based on a riff from a Ron Altbach instrumental from the Almost Summer soundtrack... but still good.
Come Go With Me - a 15BO discard, re-recorded by Alan later in 1976...Also good.
Hey, Little Tomboy - originally recorded during the 15BO sessions, remixed and sweetened at MIU....took out the funniest part so very average.
Kona Coast - blatant "Hawaii" ripoff by Mike & Al...sung well but really dumb
Peggy Sue - back to the 15 BO tapebox again...bad version. I thought this arrangment was taken from the Christmastime is Here Again song. Perhaps it's the other way around but still sounds more 1977 then 1976.
Wontcha Come Out Tonight - a new song. Not good, but new...Disagree I like it. It's not a major song but Brian sounds really good on it, and so Mike

Side 2
Sweet Sunday Kinda Love - also new, and Carl sounds bored to tears...agreed
Belles of Paris - offensive, if original, travelogue...I wouldn't even give it that much credit.
Pitter Patter - new, and IMHO, none too shabby...not bad, not great. It looked like Mike and Al had fun when I watched the film of this session.
My Diane - recorded fall 1976 for New Album, sweetened at MIU...Dennis' lead was recorded at M.I.U. as the film shows. Good song and great vocal by the lead singer.
Matchpoint Of Our Love - new song with inane lyric...but a fantastic lead vocal from Brian. Kind of a different more contemporary sound. A little Vegas, but not bad.
Winds Of Change - not even a BB song: written circa 1975 by Altbach & Eddie Tuleja, possibly when King Harvest was still a going concern....pretty if not something to keep playing over and over. Al could have sung better on it, and there are plent of songs they didn't write at least it's not an oldie.

To me it wasn't a contract filler, the Xmas one was. This was the best they could do at the time but I still think Adult Child would have made a better choice then M.I.U. or Love You.

[Cam Mott]

I'm pretty sure Jeff Deutsch was present during the recording of this album [in connection with Preiss' book]; he used to contirbute here and I've seen him lurking occasionally, maybe he could weigh in with some eyewitness input.

[al]

My biggest problem with "MIU" is the cynicism. For the first time you can hear them straining to sound like themselves. Or some earlier, more successful version of themsleves. "I wanna go surfin' where I dig it the most, in Hawaii." Help me, Jesus. For one thing, none of those guys were surfing anywhere by 1978. For another, they didn't realize that literal surfing -- the sport -- had nothing to do with why people loved their earlier work. It was the way they sang about it. . . the risk, the beauty, the promise of transformation. It was the whole dream of the west, wrapped up in one spiffy youthful New Frontier image. Trying to re-claim that world as their own in '78 was just sad....particularly because the music beneath those words was so lame and pedestrian. And ripped off, in places, from their better songs (see also: 'Go to hawaii!' nicked from 'Hawaii,' and "When I Grow Up"'s '...won't last forever' at the end of the dismal, soupy, schlocky, 'Winds of Change.' I'm not even that big a fan of "My Diane," to tell the truth, 'cause the rhythm seems so lethargic and plodding. I know others disagree, and yes, it's nice to hear BW up there on the high falsetto, which he actually pulls off with emotion, etc. etc. I'll give it another spin.

But everyone makes crappy albums eventually, and I wouldn't be quite so harsh on this one except for the cynicism thing, which was not only bad enough in this context, but even worse when you realize (in retrospect) that it was just the start of a long and dismal era in which a band that had once set standards for musical adventure and spiritual derring-do was now in the business of cashing in on their own history.

I'm sorry if that sounds too harsh. I'm calling it like I see it.

Peter -- I see what you are saying about cynicisim, but I don't really agree with it.  I think MIU was really the Al and Brian show, not the Mike Love show, and I don't see Al as a cynical person.  I honestly think Al was trying to produce a good, solid album when he (with Altbach) took the reins of MIU.  I don't believe he was cynically trying to recapture the earlier sound; I think he genuinely wanted to make a really good Beach Boys album.  I am perfectly willing to consider Mike cynical, and I'm sure he was, but I just don't think Mike was a driving force behind this album.  The way I see it, musically, the album is mostly Brian -- She's Got Rhythm, Hey Little Tomboy, Wontcha Come out Tonight, Sweet Sunday, My Diane, and Matchpoint all have BW fingerprints all over them musically, if not lyrically, and I believe he contributed significantly to Belles of Paris and Pitter Patter.  The first six songs I listed above there just blow me away, and I also happen to like BOP and PP.  This is still Brian Douglas Wilson we're talking about, back when he still had most of his powers left, and he was the driving force musically behind half the album.  I happen to like Kona Coast and Winds of Change, though I understand people who don't.  Frankly Al's two covers do the least for me on the album.

Whether you like the album or not is of course a matter of taste.  I was just troubled by how severely you savaged it in the book.  I do not consider any Beach Boys album until Still Cruisin to be cynical; even the '85 album has some truly magical moments, mostly courtesy of Brian, as you pretty much acknowledged in the book.

My point is, there are plenty of non-believers out there more than happy to savage everything the Boys did post 1966, and I hate for an otherwise thoughtful, sensitive portrait of Brian and the group to give those people fodder.  And I would hate for a young, would-be Brianista to be turned off their later stuff by the criticism of a Beach Boys expert (which is what David Leaf's writings did to me in my younger days).

If you don't have anything nice to say (in terms of opinion), I think it's better not to say anything at all.

Stuff and nonsense - a big part of Brian's career problems of late have been that he's been surrounded by yes-people. As a case in point I cite the vocals on GIOMH: surely someone, at some point must have felt like pressing the talkback and saying "Brian, you know you can do that better. Take two."

But no-one did...

Andrew -- I am not suggesting that no one should say no to Brian.  I personally agree with you 100% on GIOMH.  But if I were writing a bio of Brian I would not criticize GIOMH musically.  I just wouldn't want to publish negativity about his music.

You could write one on that basis but I can't imagine anyone wanting to read it. AGD made the excellent point earlier about your original comment, but Peter has every right - nay, DUTY to chart the decline of The Beach Boys albums. I bought MIU on the day it was released and after playing it sat there in disbelief. It is a piece of crap in comparison to what came before. Only in hindsight and in the light of the further crimes against good albums has MIU picked up any points at all. I don't read a book to be told that everything is wonderful when it clearly wasn't. I can look at a record company blurb for that. Don't you have functioning critical faculties that can listen to Pet Sounds on the one hand and MIU on the other and realise there is a large gap in quality between them?

If I have a complaint about the book it is that I would have liked more about the music - much more could have been written about the 64-66 period which seems oddly rushed, and generally later the music plays second fiddle to the personal goings on, but that is probably right. It is certainly the best written biography so far, but I suppose the fact that it is a Brian WIlson bio rather than a Beach Boys one excuses to an extent the lack of real musical examination.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Peggy Sue - back to the 15 BO tapebox again...bad version. I thought this arrangment was taken from the Christmastime is Here Again song. Perhaps it's the other way around but still sounds more 1977 then 1976.

Both later versions use the 1976 instrumental track.

My Diane - recorded fall 1976 for New Album, sweetened at MIU...Dennis' lead was recorded at M.I.U. as the film shows. Good song and great vocal by the lead singer.

There's reason to doubt this - I've heard people better qualified that I saying Dennis' part was shot in a Seattle studio. Been a while since I've seen the Our team video, but Dennis is not shown with any other BB's present. And the lead was recorded fall 1976, along with the rest of the basic track and Brian's bvs.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Might I add that the original version, without the strings, sounds better. Also, and maybe it's just me, but it sounds like the MIU version is slightly faster.

[Smilin Ed H]

I've always thought that too.

 I find MIU really difficult to take and if it wasn't for the handful of good songs on LA, I would've said it's a straightforward slide downhill from here.  I like My Diane.  Don't think it's great, but it's the last BW song for the BB of any substance.  I also like Pitter Patter and, up to a point, Winds of Change.  It's pretentious but at least it has ambition and the rest of the album is truly lame.  I think the good production on the album just serves to highlight how poor the whole affair is.

[busy doin nothin]

My biggest problem with "MIU" is the cynicism. For the first time you can hear them straining to sound like themselves. Or some earlier, more successful version of themsleves. "I wanna go surfin' where I dig it the most, in Hawaii." Help me, Jesus. For one thing, none of those guys were surfing anywhere by 1978. For another, they didn't realize that literal surfing -- the sport -- had nothing to do with why people loved their earlier work. It was the way they sang about it. . . the risk, the beauty, the promise of transformation. It was the whole dream of the west, wrapped up in one spiffy youthful New Frontier image. Trying to re-claim that world as their own in '78 was just sad....particularly because the music beneath those words was so lame and pedestrian. And ripped off, in places, from their better songs (see also: 'Go to hawaii!' nicked from 'Hawaii,' and "When I Grow Up"'s '...won't last forever' at the end of the dismal, soupy, schlocky, 'Winds of Change.' I'm not even that big a fan of "My Diane," to tell the truth, 'cause the rhythm seems so lethargic and plodding. I know others disagree, and yes, it's nice to hear BW up there on the high falsetto, which he actually pulls off with emotion, etc. etc. I'll give it another spin.

But everyone makes crappy albums eventually, and I wouldn't be quite so harsh on this one except for the cynicism thing, which was not only bad enough in this context, but even worse when you realize (in retrospect) that it was just the start of a long and dismal era in which a band that had once set standards for musical adventure and spiritual derring-do was now in the business of cashing in on their own history.

I'm sorry if that sounds too harsh. I'm calling it like I see it.

Peter -- I see what you are saying about cynicisim, but I don't really agree with it.  I think MIU was really the Al and Brian show, not the Mike Love show, and I don't see Al as a cynical person.  I honestly think Al was trying to produce a good, solid album when he (with Altbach) took the reins of MIU.  I don't believe he was cynically trying to recapture the earlier sound; I think he genuinely wanted to make a really good Beach Boys album.  I am perfectly willing to consider Mike cynical, and I'm sure he was, but I just don't think Mike was a driving force behind this album.  The way I see it, musically, the album is mostly Brian -- She's Got Rhythm, Hey Little Tomboy, Wontcha Come out Tonight, Sweet Sunday, My Diane, and Matchpoint all have BW fingerprints all over them musically, if not lyrically, and I believe he contributed significantly to Belles of Paris and Pitter Patter.  The first six songs I listed above there just blow me away, and I also happen to like BOP and PP.  This is still Brian Douglas Wilson we're talking about, back when he still had most of his powers left, and he was the driving force musically behind half the album.  I happen to like Kona Coast and Winds of Change, though I understand people who don't.  Frankly Al's two covers do the least for me on the album.

Whether you like the album or not is of course a matter of taste.  I was just troubled by how severely you savaged it in the book.  I do not consider any Beach Boys album until Still Cruisin to be cynical; even the '85 album has some truly magical moments, mostly courtesy of Brian, as you pretty much acknowledged in the book.

My point is, there are plenty of non-believers out there more than happy to savage everything the Boys did post 1966, and I hate for an otherwise thoughtful, sensitive portrait of Brian and the group to give those people fodder.  And I would hate for a young, would-be Brianista to be turned off their later stuff by the criticism of a Beach Boys expert (which is what David Leaf's writings did to me in my younger days).

If you don't have anything nice to say (in terms of opinion), I think it's better not to say anything at all.

Stuff and nonsense - a big part of Brian's career problems of late have been that he's been surrounded by yes-people. As a case in point I cite the vocals on GIOMH: surely someone, at some point must have felt like pressing the talkback and saying "Brian, you know you can do that better. Take two."

But no-one did...

Andrew -- I am not suggesting that no one should say no to Brian.  I personally agree with you 100% on GIOMH.  But if I were writing a bio of Brian I would not criticize GIOMH musically.  I just wouldn't want to publish negativity about his music.

You could write one on that basis but I can't imagine anyone wanting to read it. AGD made the excellent point earlier about your original comment, but Peter has every right - nay, DUTY to chart the decline of The Beach Boys albums. I bought MIU on the day it was released and after playing it sat there in disbelief. It is a piece of crap in comparison to what came before. Only in hindsight and in the light of the further crimes against good albums has MIU picked up any points at all. I don't read a book to be told that everything is wonderful when it clearly wasn't. I can look at a record company blurb for that. Don't you have functioning critical faculties that can listen to Pet Sounds on the one hand and MIU on the other and realise there is a large gap in quality between them?

If I have a complaint about the book it is that I would have liked more about the music - much more could have been written about the 64-66 period which seems oddly rushed, and generally later the music plays second fiddle to the personal goings on, but that is probably right. It is certainly the best written biography so far, but I suppose the fact that it is a Brian WIlson bio rather than a Beach Boys one excuses to an extent the lack of real musical examination.

I am trying to make a distinction here.  I think a biographer MUST do the following: (1) describe accurately the circumstances under which an album was recorded, good, bad or indifferent; (2)describe the reaction, both commercial and critical, to an album; and (3) describe the effect of the album's reception on the biographical subject.  In the case of MIU, all three of these components were decidedly negative.  I have no problem with quoting from negative contemporary reviews of the ablum (or even negative subsequent reviews), to show its critical standing (or lack thereof).  My problem is with a biographer going beyond all that, as Peter did, and stating at length his personal belief that this is one of the worst albums ever recorded.  I don't see why Peter would want to do that.  If Dennis thought the album was merda (as I believe he did), then quote Dennis.  Quote Robert Christgau or whoever reviewed it for Rolling Stone.  But don't tell the reader your own personal opinion.  Let the reader make up his or her own mind, based on the historical record you present in the biography, along with the readers' own listening to the album.

[Cam Mott]

I am trying to make a distinction here.  I think a biographer MUST do the following: (1) describe accurately the circumstances under which an album was recorded, good, bad or indifferent; (2)describe the reaction, both commercial and critical, to an album; and (3) describe the effect of the album's reception on the biographical subject.  In the case of MIU, all three of these components were decidedly negative.  I have no problem with quoting from negative contemporary reviews of the ablum (or even negative subsequent reviews), to show its critical standing (or lack thereof).  My problem is with a biographer going beyond all that, as Peter did, and stating at length his personal belief that this is one of the worst albums ever recorded.  I don't see why Peter would want to do that.  If Dennis thought the album was merda (as I believe he did), then quote Dennis.  Quote Robert Christgau or whoever reviewed it for Rolling Stone.  But don't tell the reader your own personal opinion.  Let the reader make up his or her own mind, based on the historical record you present in the biography, along with the readers' own listening to the album.

I agree but Peter has also done a good job of presenting varying/competing viewpoints in many other areas imo.

[Peter Ames Carlin]

BDN: If you're looking for a book that isn't ever going to say something critical about the work of his subject, then obviously 'Catch A Wave' isn't the title you're after. Probably the cloest you'll get is Byron Preiss's 1978 bio, which was authorized by the band and thus concluded with a stirring affirmation of the then-latest album's aesthetic and spiritual brilliance. As coincidence would have it, that album is 'MIU.'

But for all that I adore about Preiss's book, (which I bought when it first came out, back when I was a sophomore in high school) I can never read that section without thinking about the pitfalls of being an authorized biographer. Because, as someone said earlier in this thread, chances are they're after something closer to a hagiography. And as much as I hate to read that kind of stuff, I'd be even less enthusiastic about writing it.

But back to BDN, and his fear that the writer's opinion will somehow diminish that of the reader. Which readers are we speaking of? Surely BDN was grown up and confident enough in his own apprisals to reject my opinion of 'MIU' out of hand. Like any thoughtful reader, he considered his own feelings, measured them against my argument and opted to stick with his own interpretation. Which is precisely how any thoughtful reader should examine a review. So why the fear that other readers are somehow less able to do the same thing? Even if they haven't heard 'MIU,' say, they surely have heard enough of the other BB/BW ouevre to figure out where they agree/disagree with my analyses. And if they think that I'm usually full of crap, then they can proceed through the unknown terrain confident that my compass points south virtually all of the time. That's how I read a lot of critics. You're free to read me like that, too.

[MBE]

There's reason to doubt this - I've heard people better qualified that I saying Dennis' part was shot in a Seattle studio. Been a while since I've seen the Our team video, but Dennis is not shown with any other BB's present. And the lead was recorded fall 1976, along with the rest of the basic track and Brian's bvs.

That is interesting. I thought it may have been recorded in 76 at Brother but you can hear him rehearse the vocal. Now that doesn't mean it wasn't just him pretending to rehearse it but the clip always made me question the fall '76 date. Alan Boyd or someone who saw the "Our Team" outtakes said Dennis was there during the filming of She's Got Rhythm. I also hear him (but he isn't in the scene) on Our Team itself.

[MBE]

As a writer myself I have no problem with Peter saying he hates the LP. I have not read his book yet but if it was me I would put how I felt but also state why others differ with my view. The book was sent to me on Friday so just want to mention how much I am looking forward to it.

[Andrew G. Doe]

OK, so I'm being totally silly, but how about this for a biography with a non-critical slant ?

Adolph Hitler - reasonable watercolorist, WW1 vet, politician, responsible for the introduction of the VW.

One of the things I enjoy most about almost any biog is working out the author's slant. I don't think there can be a completely impartial biography, and Peter is indeed reflecting the views of the vast majority of BB - and music - fandom. Good records by a major band on a major label don't stall at #151, even if the company isn't promoting it much. One year earlier, Denny's solo album cracked the top 100. Now there's a good record. Only my opinion, of course.

[MBE]

I get your point but I think I can safely say that dictators and musicians shoould not be judged under the same terms. I don't agree with being non critical either but for instance I dislike Love You and a lot of people like it. If I write about Love You I am going to have to state what others feel without diluting my view. In the case of MIU there have been many that indeed hate it but I have seen some moderate to good reviews of it too. You didn't really trash MIU in your book and actually I think you are really good at evenly describing songs you don't care for (ie Kokomo). BTW Sunflower stalled at the same place as M.I.U. and that is my favorite of all. I know they were bigger in 1978 but Sunflower got far more press and even Brian did interviews to promote it. Something like Kokomo goes to #1 and Break Away goes to #64 what's good isn't always popular. Why did the Small Faces bomb in the US when Herman's Hermits made it?

P.S. P.O.B. IS a great record.

[donald]

Kokomo over Sunflower.   Hermans Hermits over Small Faces.  Why?

Well, why were the Archies on the Top Forty and The Jefferson Airplane was not?

I lived through a time...and in fact am still living through a time, listening now to oldies stations, where crap rules and good music is forsaken.


I know that the Archies were a Jeff Barry product directed at a preteen market and I don't hold that against him   But it is revealing regarding Kokomo and Hermans Hermits.  An audience of children or unsophisticated listeners.

[Glenn Greenberg]

Good records by a major band on a major label don't stall at #151, even if the company isn't promoting it much.

I'd agree with this wholeheartedly, but then I think of SUNFLOWER...

[Jon Stebbins]

Kokomo over Sunflower.   Hermans Hermits over Small Faces.  Why?

Well, why were the Archies on the Top Forty and The Jefferson Airplane was not?

I lived through a time...and in fact am still living through a time, listening now to oldies stations, where crap rules and good music is forsaken.


I know that the Archies were a Jeff Barry product directed at a preteen market and I don't hold that against him   But it is revealing regarding Kokomo and Hermans Hermits.  An audience of children or unsophisticated listeners.

I get your point Donald, I especially agree with you that oldies radio today is all wrong in what they emhasize...but remember Jefferson Airplane were in the top 40 with two major hit singles long before the Archies were a concept. Many hippies were calling them "sell out" in '67 because they were commercially succesful. Who cares? Somebody To Love was a great record, as was Sugar Sugar. Small Faces, very pop, Itchycoo Park, big top 40 hit. Hermits?? They made some great, great records too. They covered Donovan and Ray Davies before that was common, and made at least a half a dozen classic single recordings. Their filler was crap...but the good stuff was really good. Not very deep...but very cool pop music. Unsophisticated listener? To me that's someone who labels something no good because of a misguided percepetion. I can remember in '67 when Airplane and Dead fans were always trashing the Monkees music as having no substance for instance and Zappa came to their defense. On balance the Monkees made some of the best music of their era, psychedelic, country pop, pure bubblegum too...they were actually progessive in their productions and their genre mixing. The average Dead fan would never have noticed that the Porpoise Song was a glorious trip and some of the Monkees music was very, very hip. Its called prejudice. To me Sugar Sugar was a perfect R&B meets Bubblegum moment..maybe the best one ever, well at least the best one since I'm a Believer. Kokomo? I can relate! Not my cup of tea, actually makes me cringe...but so many people dig it that it must be an 80's classic. Anyway, I think there's room for the Airplane and the Hermits if you really like music. 

[Glenn Greenberg]

I still don't get all the animosity aimed at Kokomo.  It's certainly not the Beach Boys at their best, but it's damn catchy!  And I felt that way loooooooong before I became a serious Brian Wilson/Beach Boys fan.

[donald]

Jon, I agree there is room for all sorts of music and as I said, the preteen market was and is important in commercial radio.   I liked the Monkees, as many people obviously did if you look at their success.   They weren't as "cool" as some others, but those songs were damn good.
And as with the Archies, they kept the Brill Building folks employed for a few years after the golden era.

I just think there is a place of least common denominator where that smaller demographic  looking for a little something more in their music is likely to be disappointed.

Thus Kokomo, Hermans Hermits etc appeal to a larger, more diverse group of listeners overall.

An old friend, who was a bit of a musical snob, once said that  most people just wanted something to tap their foot to.

But I guess this would be a topic for another thread. 

Back on topic,  I am presently enjoying Peter's book,  almost as much as the one  that guy wrote about Dennis Wilson.