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Author Topic: The Peter Ames Carlin Thread  (Read 215324 times)
Peter Ames Carlin
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« Reply #125 on: July 27, 2006, 07:14:00 PM »

Yeah, see.

This is all tempest in a teapot type stuff, and I'd just as soon be talking about Brian or finding more errors in my book, or having some kind of painful medical procedure performed. I mean, honestly.
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« Reply #126 on: July 28, 2006, 02:32:42 AM »

For the life of me I cannot understand why a biographer would be so dismissive of his subject's work (especially given that Brian contributed, or co-contributed, 8 songs to MIU).  Believe it or not, there are a number of BW/BB fans who really love MIU (myself included).  Just check out the MIU review thread on this site and you'll find out.

I've seen this phenomenon in a number of biographies -- for example, Matthew Bruccoli dismissing many of F. Scott Fitzgerald's short stories, Joseph McBride trashing 1941, Always, and Hook (three of my favorite Spielberg movies).  If you're going to write a book about someone, certainly you should say if their work flopped (as MIU did).  But why write a lengthy screed about how crappy it is?

It's called having a critical perspective.  In the whole BB canon, MIU is firmly in the basement, due in no small part to the fact that Brian was a most unwilling participant, and at the top of another slippery slope down. A biography that says everything an artist does is wonderful isn't a biography, it's a hagiography.
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« Reply #127 on: July 28, 2006, 02:38:19 AM »

Yeah, see.

This is all tempest in a teapot type stuff, and I'd just as soon be talking about Brian or finding more errors in my book, or having some kind of painful medical procedure performed. I mean, honestly.

Understood!  It just caught my interest, as I had no idea what you did when you weren't a BB author.  I guess I need to get off my butt and get the book!
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« Reply #128 on: July 28, 2006, 04:50:27 AM »

I happen to like Bill O'Reilly.  He's done a lot of good.  I know there are people out there that hate the fact that there is a show that shows both sides of a story and let's the audience decide for themselves..  but I'm not one of them.
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« Reply #129 on: July 28, 2006, 06:57:58 AM »

Strangely enough, liberal as I am about so many things, I find myself agreeing with O'Reilly on a number of issues.

I worry.  Am I a closet nazi or does he actually have a degree of common sense about some things?

I can't  STAND Rush Limbaugh.   Nor that smug Kerry bashing bastard Joe Scab brow on msnbc.

I maybe should take this to another thread?
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« Reply #130 on: July 28, 2006, 07:07:40 AM »

I maybe should take this to another thread?

Please?  Smiley  It would be good Sandbox stuff, but I think here Peter wants to talk about his BB work.  IMO, of course.
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« Reply #131 on: July 28, 2006, 08:29:05 AM »

My book, on order (pre publication) from Amazon, still hasn't arrived - but I think there's a difference between a critical biography, say, written by a music critic, and a literary biography, which would be more objective and interject less of the author's opinions and stick more or less to facts.  Most biographies of musical figures tend to be critical biographies, and therefore you always have to take the opinions expressed with a grain of salt, as you - and many other critics/fans - might disagree with the opinions expressed.
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« Reply #132 on: July 28, 2006, 08:35:03 AM »

Back on topic (sort of):   Hey Peter -  the appearance you describe on A Current Affair some years ago in the book, wasn't the interviewer ---  Bill O'Reilly?

For the rest of you: He hosted the show for a couple years before the 24-hour Fox News thing got up and running.
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Peter Ames Carlin
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« Reply #133 on: July 28, 2006, 09:46:56 AM »

I don't remember who the 'current affair' interviewer was. I just recall Mike sitting on a balcony somewhere becoming severely choked up because Landy wouldn't allow him to write more hit songs with his cousin. It was very sweet.

Mega-dittos on the critical biography thing. There's just no way i'm going to write about 'MIU' as if it deserved a place in the canon alongside 'Pet Sounds.' I wouldn't expect anyone to agree with me 100 percent of the time. If only because my opinions change from time to time. But that's the joy of writing a subjective book about works of art. I have my say, and you can either agree or use my argument as exhibit 'a' in your argument to the contrary.  'Cause by now you'd have realized how wrong I am about so many things.
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« Reply #134 on: July 28, 2006, 11:08:19 AM »

The only positive thing I'd say about MIU is that I do believe PITTER PATTER is an underrated song. A really good beat, as they used to say on American Bandstand. Mr. Carlin, enjoyed your book. I thought you did a great job on getting a perspective of Brian's mindset from PS to LOVE YOU, and pointing out that pre-Landy he wasn't quite as damaged as advertised and did what he wanted to, somewhat. Oh, and kudos for scoring a blurb kudo from Sarah Vowell. I love her.
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« Reply #135 on: July 28, 2006, 11:17:33 AM »


It's called having a critical perspective.  In the whole BB canon, MIU is firmly in the basement, due in no small part to the fact that Brian was a most unwilling participant, and at the top of another slippery slope down. A biography that says everything an artist does is wonderful isn't a biography, it's a hagiography.

I agree that whatever critical perspective an author takes is better than no critical perspective. I haven't yet read the book, so I can't pass judgement either way on the book. But I think it is worth pointing out that "MIU" seems to often be the pick for worst BB album, yet when some fans actually step back and pick apart other albums like "15 Big Ones" or "KTSA" song-by-song, they start to find that those albums are as wonky if not moreso. I find "15 Big Ones" to be markedly worse than "MIU." Of course, I don't need to explain this to AGD, who literally wrote the book on picking the albums apart song by song! Smiley Of course, I can't fathom how one could find "Looking Back With Love" to be any stronger than "MIU", but there's that critical perspective thing! Smiley

I would find a ringing endorsement of "MIU" as he the second coming if "Pet Sounds" to be rather troublesome, but at the same time I would say it's about as easy to rip into "MIU" or pretty much any post-1976 BB album as it is to rip into the dreaded O'Reilly.
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« Reply #136 on: July 28, 2006, 11:24:51 AM »

I don't remember who the 'current affair' interviewer was. I just recall Mike sitting on a balcony somewhere becoming severely choked up because Landy wouldn't allow him to write more hit songs with his cousin. It was very sweet.

I was recently going through a whole bunch of TV reports, etc. about the BB's, and came across that "A Current Affair" report. I don't think the interviewer was O'Reilly (didn't he host one of the other tabloid shows, like "Inside Edition"?). In fact, they never actually show the interviewer. I have two different versions of the report, and each version has a different person (whoever was hosting the show on that day) narrating the segement. Interestingly, both versions have the exact same footage and narration. One version is narrated by Maury Povich and is presented as a segment simply on the whole Brian/Landy conservatorship thing, while the other version is the exact same piece narrated by a female anchor and, because of the recent popularity of Wilson Philips at the time, is presented as a story about how "two members of the hit group Wilson Philips are dealing with turmoil in their family" or some such sensationalist tag.

I too found the footage of Mike tearing up (talking about how his first memory of Brian is Brian singing "Danny Boy" when he was a young boy) to finally show some humility and a softer side of Mike. Of course, my feelings were quickly washed away when the next TV clips I watched consisted of footage of Mike Love at a 1988 presidential rally singing literally "I'm picking up Bush Vibrations", followed by a segment featuring Mike on "The Lifestyles of the Rich & Famous." Smiley
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« Reply #137 on: July 28, 2006, 11:32:17 AM »

I happen to like Bill O'Reilly.  He's done a lot of good.  I know there are people out there that hate the fact that there is a show that shows both sides of a story and let's the audience decide for themselves..  but I'm not one of them.

I'm not one of them either. But what does that sort of show have to do with O'Reilly? Okay, I know, this sort of debate shouldn't take over the board. BB content: Mike Love has, in the past 9 months or so and apparently somewhat regularly, appeared on TV shows of two of the biggest loads I can think of, O'Reilly and Imus. I've just heard a rumor the long-awaited Beach Boys reunion will take place on "Hannity and Colmes." Smiley
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« Reply #138 on: July 28, 2006, 12:42:15 PM »

For the life of me I cannot understand why a biographer would be so dismissive of his subject's work (especially given that Brian contributed, or co-contributed, 8 songs to MIU).  Believe it or not, there are a number of BW/BB fans who really love MIU (myself included).  Just check out the MIU review thread on this site and you'll find out.

I've seen this phenomenon in a number of biographies -- for example, Matthew Bruccoli dismissing many of F. Scott Fitzgerald's short stories, Joseph McBride trashing 1941, Always, and Hook (three of my favorite Spielberg movies).  If you're going to write a book about someone, certainly you should say if their work flopped (as MIU did).  But why write a lengthy screed about how crappy it is?

It's called having a critical perspective.  In the whole BB canon, MIU is firmly in the basement, due in no small part to the fact that Brian was a most unwilling participant, and at the top of another slippery slope down. A biography that says everything an artist does is wonderful isn't a biography, it's a hagiography.

Mega-dittos on the critical biography thing. There's just no way i'm going to write about 'MIU' as if it deserved a place in the canon alongside 'Pet Sounds.' I wouldn't expect anyone to agree with me 100 percent of the time. If only because my opinions change from time to time. But that's the joy of writing a subjective book about works of art. I have my say, and you can either agree or use my argument as exhibit 'a' in your argument to the contrary. 'Cause by now you'd have realized how wrong I am about so many things.

A couple of thoughts.

I am not in any way suggesting that if Peter doesn't like the album he should still praise it, or that he should say everything Brian or the Beach Boys did is wonderful.  The biography should (indeed must) report that MIU was a critical and commercial flop.  And it also should report the internal band problems that accompanied its recording.

But Peter goes far beyond that.  In fact, he goes beyond saying that MIU is the worst album in the Beach Boys canon.  He in effect says (I don't have the exact quote handy) that it may be the worst album ever released by a major artist.

Now of course Peter has a right to this opinion, although I find it hard to believe he really thinks that way.  Or if he does, I question whether he truly loves the work of Brian Wilson.  Because the inclusion of My Diane, by itself, on MIU -- as honest and soul-wrenching a song as Brian ever wrote -- means that any true Brianista could not consider it the worst album ever released by a major artist.  (I mean, how about Summer in Paradise, which features no Brian involvement whatsoever?)

Besides which, this opinion was not stated as being the result of Brian's (alleged) forced involvement in the project.  It was given without qualification, as a bottom line assessment of the finished product.

I don't read biographies of artists I admire (whether musicians, writers, filmmakers) to hear how crappy some of their work is.  I certainly want a true picture of the facts of the artist's life, negative as well as positive.  But the Beach Boys' post-Pet Sounds output has been so utterly neglected and forgotten in the public mind, the last thing we need is another biographer trashing it (as Leaf and Gaines did).  Imagine a budding Brian Wilson fan, who only knows the fun 'n' sun hits, reading Peter's book (which, admirably, does have a good deal of praise for Carl and the Passions, another neglected BB album).  Why would Peter want to turn this person off of MIU, make it so he (or she) won't even want to give the album a chance?  That person might just love it (as I do, and at least a few others on this site also do).

If you don't have anything nice to say (in terms of opinion), I think it's better not to say anything at all.

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« Reply #139 on: July 28, 2006, 03:00:28 PM »

If you don't have anything nice to say (in terms of opinion), I think it's better not to say anything at all.

Stuff and nonsense - a big part of Brian's career problems of late have been that he's been surrounded by yes-people. As a case in point I cite the vocals on GIOMH: surely someone, at some point must have felt like pressing the talkback and saying "Brian, you know you can do that better. Take two."

But no-one did...
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« Reply #140 on: July 28, 2006, 03:56:11 PM »

If you don't have anything nice to say (in terms of opinion), I think it's better not to say anything at all.

Stuff and nonsense - a big part of Brian's career problems of late have been that he's been surrounded by yes-people. As a case in point I cite the vocals on GIOMH: surely someone, at some point must have felt like pressing the talkback and saying "Brian, you know you can do that better. Take two."

But no-one did...

Very true, and perhaps it has something to do with the adament placement on every BW release since 2000 of "Produced by Brian Wilson." If Brian is really producing the stuff himself, who is there to tell him "Take Two"? I suppose Darian if he's there or Mark Linett. But they aren't going to tell Brian "Hey Brian, that vocal sucked!" Supposedly, though, Darian did do that a bit with BWPS. But think about this: What if the vocals on GIOMH are the later vocal takes? Maybe the earlier takes were even worse? The worst travesty on GIOMH in my opinion was replacing Carl's bridge vocal on "Soul Searchin'", arguably Carl's best spot in the song, with Brian's strained, shouty vocal. Just release the Beach Boys version and be done with it!

I know fans loved seeing "Produced by Brian Wilson", especially instead of Steve Levine, or Terry Melcher, or Joe Thomas. I don't advocate for anybody to just take full control over an album of Brian's, but he could use a producer or co-producer if he's going to continue to make new music. I probably don't have a lot of fans in agreement with me, but I'd love to see Jeff Lynne produce an entire Brian album, and even write some of the material.
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« Reply #141 on: July 28, 2006, 04:41:22 PM »

My biggest problem with "MIU" is the cynicism. For the first time you can hear them straining to sound like themselves. Or some earlier, more successful version of themsleves. "I wanna go surfin' where I dig it the most, in Hawaii." Help me, Jesus. For one thing, none of those guys were surfing anywhere by 1978. For another, they didn't realize that literal surfing -- the sport -- had nothing to do with why people loved their earlier work. It was the way they sang about it. . . the risk, the beauty, the promise of transformation. It was the whole dream of the west, wrapped up in one spiffy youthful New Frontier image. Trying to re-claim that world as their own in '78 was just sad....particularly because the music beneath those words was so lame and pedestrian. And ripped off, in places, from their better songs (see also: 'Go to hawaii!' nicked from 'Hawaii,' and "When I Grow Up"'s '...won't last forever' at the end of the dismal, soupy, schlocky, 'Winds of Change.' I'm not even that big a fan of "My Diane," to tell the truth, 'cause the rhythm seems so lethargic and plodding. I know others disagree, and yes, it's nice to hear BW up there on the high falsetto, which he actually pulls off with emotion, etc. etc. I'll give it another spin.

But everyone makes crappy albums eventually, and I wouldn't be quite so harsh on this one except for the cynicism thing, which was not only bad enough in this context, but even worse when you realize (in retrospect) that it was just the start of a long and dismal era in which a band that had once set standards for musical adventure and spiritual derring-do was now in the business of cashing in on their own history.

I'm sorry if that sounds too harsh. I'm calling it like I see it.
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« Reply #142 on: July 28, 2006, 06:07:42 PM »

My biggest problem with "MIU" is the cynicism. For the first time you can hear them straining to sound like themselves. Or some earlier, more successful version of themsleves. "I wanna go surfin' where I dig it the most, in Hawaii." Help me, Jesus. For one thing, none of those guys were surfing anywhere by 1978. For another, they didn't realize that literal surfing -- the sport -- had nothing to do with why people loved their earlier work. It was the way they sang about it. . . the risk, the beauty, the promise of transformation. It was the whole dream of the west, wrapped up in one spiffy youthful New Frontier image. Trying to re-claim that world as their own in '78 was just sad....particularly because the music beneath those words was so lame and pedestrian. And ripped off, in places, from their better songs (see also: 'Go to hawaii!' nicked from 'Hawaii,' and "When I Grow Up"'s '...won't last forever' at the end of the dismal, soupy, schlocky, 'Winds of Change.' I'm not even that big a fan of "My Diane," to tell the truth, 'cause the rhythm seems so lethargic and plodding. I know others disagree, and yes, it's nice to hear BW up there on the high falsetto, which he actually pulls off with emotion, etc. etc. I'll give it another spin.

But everyone makes crappy albums eventually, and I wouldn't be quite so harsh on this one except for the cynicism thing, which was not only bad enough in this context, but even worse when you realize (in retrospect) that it was just the start of a long and dismal era in which a band that had once set standards for musical adventure and spiritual derring-do was now in the business of cashing in on their own history.

I'm sorry if that sounds too harsh. I'm calling it like I see it.

Peter -- I see what you are saying about cynicisim, but I don't really agree with it.  I think MIU was really the Al and Brian show, not the Mike Love show, and I don't see Al as a cynical person.  I honestly think Al was trying to produce a good, solid album when he (with Altbach) took the reins of MIU.  I don't believe he was cynically trying to recapture the earlier sound; I think he genuinely wanted to make a really good Beach Boys album.  I am perfectly willing to consider Mike cynical, and I'm sure he was, but I just don't think Mike was a driving force behind this album.  The way I see it, musically, the album is mostly Brian -- She's Got Rhythm, Hey Little Tomboy, Wontcha Come out Tonight, Sweet Sunday, My Diane, and Matchpoint all have BW fingerprints all over them musically, if not lyrically, and I believe he contributed significantly to Belles of Paris and Pitter Patter.  The first six songs I listed above there just blow me away, and I also happen to like BOP and PP.  This is still Brian Douglas Wilson we're talking about, back when he still had most of his powers left, and he was the driving force musically behind half the album.  I happen to like Kona Coast and Winds of Change, though I understand people who don't.  Frankly Al's two covers do the least for me on the album.

Whether you like the album or not is of course a matter of taste.  I was just troubled by how severely you savaged it in the book.  I do not consider any Beach Boys album until Still Cruisin to be cynical; even the '85 album has some truly magical moments, mostly courtesy of Brian, as you pretty much acknowledged in the book.

My point is, there are plenty of non-believers out there more than happy to savage everything the Boys did post 1966, and I hate for an otherwise thoughtful, sensitive portrait of Brian and the group to give those people fodder.  And I would hate for a young, would-be Brianista to be turned off their later stuff by the criticism of a Beach Boys expert (which is what David Leaf's writings did to me in my younger days).

If you don't have anything nice to say (in terms of opinion), I think it's better not to say anything at all.

Stuff and nonsense - a big part of Brian's career problems of late have been that he's been surrounded by yes-people. As a case in point I cite the vocals on GIOMH: surely someone, at some point must have felt like pressing the talkback and saying "Brian, you know you can do that better. Take two."

But no-one did...

Andrew -- I am not suggesting that no one should say no to Brian.  I personally agree with you 100% on GIOMH.  But if I were writing a bio of Brian I would not criticize GIOMH musically.  I just wouldn't want to publish negativity about his music.
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« Reply #143 on: July 28, 2006, 06:25:11 PM »

Stuff and nonsense - a big part of Brian's career problems of late have been that he's been surrounded by yes-people. As a case in point I cite the vocals on GIOMH: surely someone, at some point must have felt like pressing the talkback and saying "Brian, you know you can do that better. Take two."  But no-one did...

Fortunately, as I understand, Darian did for Brian's BWPS vocals.  Just the same, I don't think his vocals on GIOMH are bad, just not as good as they could have been in some cases.
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« Reply #144 on: July 28, 2006, 06:45:02 PM »

Agreed Chuck, as I personally think the vox on Orange Crate Art were worse, esp. the horrible abomination known as "Hold Back Time". Everytime that song plays, a kitten dies.

If you don't have anything nice to say (in terms of opinion), I think it's better not to say anything at all.

Stuff and nonsense - a big part of Brian's career problems of late have been that he's been surrounded by yes-people. As a case in point I cite the vocals on GIOMH: surely someone, at some point must have felt like pressing the talkback and saying "Brian, you know you can do that better. Take two."

Just what was the story behind the sessions? I know a bit from talking with you and others, but mainly on the end result, not on the sessions.

Quote
In the whole BB canon, MIU is firmly in the basement, due in no small part to the fact that Brian was a most unwilling participant, and at the top of another slippery slope down.

Ehhhh....worse than Still Cruisin or Summer in Paradise?
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« Reply #145 on: July 28, 2006, 06:52:01 PM »

I'm sorry if that sounds too harsh. I'm calling it like I see it.

I'm not much of a MIU fan either.  It's as close to a totally bad BB album as I've ever heard, though it's not, well, totally bad.
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« Reply #146 on: July 28, 2006, 07:39:29 PM »

I like about half of M.I.U. but I agree the quotes from earlier songs are dumb. Brian sings really good om these sessions though and in the film footage I saw he was having a really good time. I know outakes show him bored but performance wise he did a great job vocally that he would never again match. Again about half of it works and half doesn't but they don't sound cynical quite yet. I think the KTSA is a little more calculated, but from the 85 LP on I think The Beach Boys recorded maybe a half dozen songa that I like.
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« Reply #147 on: July 28, 2006, 07:50:16 PM »

[I'd love to see Jeff Lynne produce an entire Brian album, and even write some of the material.

You know as we are also Beatles fans we remember his work with George and I for one loved it. I think he and Brian should do something becaue I am one of the few people who really liked Let It Shine. I wonder why so many others didn't.
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« Reply #148 on: July 28, 2006, 09:13:01 PM »

Quote
if I were writing a bio of Brian I would not criticize GIOMH musically.  I just wouldn't want to publish negativity about his music.

Sounds like a pretty toothless bio to me.
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« Reply #149 on: July 28, 2006, 10:06:45 PM »

I'd love to see Jeff Lynne produce an entire Brian album, and even write some of the material.

You know as we are also Beatles fans we remember his work with George and I for one loved it. I think he and Brian should do something becaue I am one of the few people who really liked Let It Shine. I wonder why so many others didn't.
Quote

I know AGD has said in the past that back when the BW '88 came out, the word was that Brian "hated" "Let It Shine." Then again, supposedly it was at Brian's instigation that the song was added to his live setlist for a time in 2000.

"Let It Shine" does have a strong Lynne influence, as Lynne injected his sound into the backing track and Lynne supposedly wrote pretty much the whole song apart from the vocal intro. My take is simply that the song is one of the stronger songs on the album, and at the end of the day, I think the strongest songs on the album should be judged as such regardless of who wrote or produced it. "Let It Shine" is borderline Brian Wilson covering a Jeff Lynne song with Lynne producing, but it still sounds good.

Given that Brian, under the right circumstances, can still arrange and sing and stack his vocals well in the proper studio setting, I'm not at all opposed to another new Brian album where somebody like Jeff Lynne writes or co-writes some of the songs, even if some of the songs have little Brian input on the songwriting end; the songs just need to be good compositions. I don't know about other BW fans, but I for one will not freak out if a BW album comes out without a "Produced by Brian Wilson" tag or without Andy Paley or Van Dyke Parks or Steve Kalinich's name anywhere on the credits.
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