The Peter Ames Carlin Thread

[Glenn Greenberg]

<<Mike made it pretty clear to me that there wasn't a whole lot of enthusiasm in the BB's to be working on a Brian-dominated album.>>


What was WRONG with those guys?!?!?!?

[petsite]

I saw the group in March of 1982 with Dennis/Al/Bruce/Mike where Bruce played the white grand piano stage right. Mike had told me eariler that Brian was indeed in Houston but decided not to attend the show.

As a quick aside, Mike was doing "Looking Back With Love" and  "Be My Baby" that night from his "new" solo LP. As he announced the mini-set he said (I will always remember this) "I gonna do a couple of tunes from my new solo LP Looking Back With Love. If you have to take a piss, now would be a good time!"

Classic. This was also the first time I saw Mike without his beard. He looked ten years younger. Bennis was VERY wasted and had no beard (thought he had one just 2 months before) and long, stringy hair. He was a mess.

Also, has anyone else noticed that Dennis during the last several years of touring would always wear a BB tshirt that was being sold out in the lobby of the venues? I am guessing he would show up shirtless and snag one before hitting the stage (after all they were free to him).

[Rocker]

<<Mike made it pretty clear to me that there wasn't a whole lot of enthusiasm in the BB's to be working on a Brian-dominated album.>>


What was WRONG with those guys?!?!?!?

I was about to ask the same. They always tried to get Brian back to working, because they wouldn't get a record-deal without him. Then they have the chance and even very strong material, and they let it go.  Maybe it was too difficult to play this material live? 

[Jeff Mason]

<<Mike made it pretty clear to me that there wasn't a whole lot of enthusiasm in the BB's to be working on a Brian-dominated album.>>


What was WRONG with those guys?!?!?!?

I was about to ask the same. They always tried to get Brian back to working, because they wouldn't get a record-deal without him. Then they have the chance and even very strong material, and they let it go.  Maybe it was too difficult to play this material live? 

They wanted the record deal -- not Brian working on it.  So they would cozy up to get it and then try their own stuff.  I think that Brian poisoned their trust in him with his unique approach in the 70's -- lots of great and completely uncommercial music there.

[Rocker]

<<Mike made it pretty clear to me that there wasn't a whole lot of enthusiasm in the BB's to be working on a Brian-dominated album.>>


What was WRONG with those guys?!?!?!?

I was about to ask the same. They always tried to get Brian back to working, because they wouldn't get a record-deal without him. Then they have the chance and even very strong material, and they let it go.  Maybe it was too difficult to play this material live? 

They wanted the record deal -- not Brian working on it.  So they would cozy up to get it and then try their own stuff.  I think that Brian poisoned their trust in him with his unique approach in the 70's -- lots of great and completely uncommercial music there.

But stuff like "Soul searchin" is great AND commercial at the same time. They had to know this. And with Brian there they'd have even more publicity -> bigger hit. I guess I'll never understand the thinking of the BBs. Crazy Brian's thinking is easier for me to understand.

BTW Carl wanted to put his "Run don't walk" on the album, do you think Brian would have produced it? I guess not.

[kshane]

Peter, I'm enjoying your book very much. In the section about Pet Sounds, you mention that a number of critics regard the inclusion of Sloop John B to be the one huge flaw on the album, and then you go on to defend Brian's inclusion of the song. I've re-read that section several times, and it's not altogether clear to me. Could you explain further why you feel that the song warranted inclusion on the album? I'm not saying it doesn't. I'd just like to understand your position a little better.

[Dr. Tim]

OF course Peter will answer for himself, but as I understand it more than a few critics feel Sloop John B with its "bad trip" vibe fits in just fine with the "grown up" melancholy of the original LP, even if it was recorded some time earlier, and apparently Peter is in that corner.  As just another prole who grew up with the album, I ve always been used to it being there and never thought twice about it until I read the Badman book.

One of the scholars here (I forget who) pointed out that Sloop John B was always slated to be on the LP, it appears on an early track lineup list for Pet Sounds. 

Small bit of trivia: While Al and/or Brian may have first heard the song as done by the Kingston Trio, it was previouisly popularized by the Weavers on one of their 50's Decca sides, and appears on their "Best of" LP for that label.

[MBE]

It's funny but I think the Granatta book totally says it shouldn't be there. I think Pet Sounds would be less of an achievement without it. It acts as a great intermision between the two sides and musically fits right in. One thing I will say is that I think Peter's book mentions that he didn't think Al actually introduced Brian to the song but I think he did. Afterall even if there are tapes of Brian singing it with Rich Sloan, AL went to high school with Brian and may have played it to him then. I think Dave or Al once said that a more folky version was in the setlist in 62-3

[c-man]

It's funny but I think the Granatta book totally says it shouldn't be there. I think Pet Sounds would be less of an achievement without it. It acts as a great intermision between the two sides and musically fits right in. One thing I will say is that I think Peter's book mentions that he didn't think Al actually introduced Brian to the song but I think he did. Afterall even if there are tapes of Brian singing it with Rich Sloan, AL went to high school with Brian and may have played it to him then. I think Dave or Al once said that a more folky version was in the setlist in 62-3

And even if Brian WAS already familiar with the song, it was still Al's idea for them to do it in '65, and to do it with the more modern chord progression that Al interjected.  Kind of like if someone came to Brian today with an idea to do the "Star Spangled Banner" in a modern context...

[Peter Ames Carlin]

I hope my argument for the rightness of "SJB" being on 'PS' is elaborated upon to the fullest extent in the pages of 'Catch A Wave.' But here's a brief blow-by of what I"m thinking.

1. The instrumental and vocal arrangements fit nicely with the other tunes.
2. The song's internal story -- feeling lost and displaced, yearning for home -- tell a variation of the same story told in many of the other songs ("That's Not Me," "I Know There's An Answer," "IJWMFTT," etc)
3. The contrast between the song's lost-and-heartbroken text and its ecstatically beautiful musical backdrop also fits with the other songs. And, as an individual piece, presents a whole new angle. In a sense, the song itself is a vignette in the story of the album: the point at which our hero, BW, shows us what he can do with music. Because we aready know "SJB," and we can immediately tell the difference between the standard folk arrangement and what we hear here. Thus we get a vivid depiction of how BW can take raw, awful feelings (sorrow; loneliness; etc) and channel them into a veitable rainbow of sounds. This is him at work, doing what he does, being himself.


Regarding Al and the song. I believe the tapes I heard of Brian, et. al, singing the song in high school pre-date the point at which he began to sing with Al. Or maybe not, who knows, but the point is that SJB was a well-known tune to these kids, and thus BW obviously knew it. So did Al come up with the striking 'PS' arrangement? Uh....hard to imagine. Maybe he had the idea of adding some relative minors here and there (Hey, we could slide down to an E-minor instead of going back to the G!) But gee, how many other jaw-dropping arrangements did AJ come up with on his own? And how many did Brian do? What does this pattern suggest to us?

[Sheriff John Stone]

Regarding Al and the song. I believe the tapes I heard of Brian, et. al, singing the song in high school pre-date the point at which he began to sing with Al.

Peter,
      You can't casually throw in a line like that and get away with it!   Did you hear tapes ABOUT Brian singing in high school, or did you actually hear tapes OF Brian singing in high school? If it's the latter, could you elaborate - songs, quality, etc. Thanks...

[c-man]

So did Al come up with the striking 'PS' arrangement? Uh....hard to imagine. Maybe he had the idea of adding some relative minors here and there (Hey, we could slide down to an E-minor instead of going back to the G!)

I think the minor chord changes are exactly what Al contributed to the song, and all he claimed to.  To me, this falls ino the realm of "adaptation", not "arrangement".  The "arrangement", especially the sparkling guitar & glockenspiel line, is surely Brian's.  When I do my essay on this track for my website (www.beachboysarchives.com), I plan to credit it thusly:

Written: Words/Music - traditional, adapted by Carl Sandbeg with George Wathall as THE JOHN B.
            SAILS; Lee Hays as I WANNA GO HOME (WRECK OF THE JOHN B.); Jimmy Rodgers as THE
            WRECK OF THE JOHN B.; newly adapted by Alan Jardine and Brian Wilson   
Arranged: Brian Wilson

[Peter Reum]

There are indeed tapes of Brian singing Wreck of the John B from high school. Brian was a big fan of the Weavers, who included Lee Hays and Pete Seeger. He knew the Weavers music from hearing it the home in Hawthorne. While Murry didn't like the Weavers' politics, he enjpyed their vocal interplay. Brian's early takes of Sloop John B follow the Weavers version almost word for word and is stylistically similar. Later in '67, Brian sang On Top of Old Smokey with Pauk McCartney and the Philips from the Mamas and Papas, and in the 90s cut a word for word version of the Weavers version of Goodnight Irene.

Alan probably has no idea of how much Brian liked the Weavers. They were a huge influence on 50s and early 60s music.

[Rocker]

Later in '67, Brian sang On Top of Old Smokey with Pauk McCartney and the Philips from the Mamas and Papas

Did you hear a tape or something? A tape of this recording would be very interesting....

[Emdeeh]

I'm with Craig on this one.

I'm all for giving credit where it's due, even when it's minor credit. Giving a collaborator their fair share of credit is the right thing to do imho, and doesn't take anything away in the least from Brian's remarkable accomplishments.

[c-man]

I'm with Craig on this one.

I'm all for giving credit where it's due, even when it's minor credit. Giving a collaborator their fair share of credit is the right thing to do imho, and doesn't take anything away in the least from Brian's remarkable accomplishments.

Right.  Even though Brian may have been very familiar with "Sloop" from the Weaver's version, and had sung it years before, it's doubtful he would've ever considered recording it with the Beach Boys...it just isn't "Beach Boys" sounding material in its folky incarnation.  Alan overcame that challenge by (a) playing it for Brian on the piano instead of the guitar, and (b) adding the minor chords.  It then became interesting enough to Brian for him to run with it and create a "symphonic rock" arrangement. 

I agree with Peter, it belongs on "Pet Sounds".  For years, we believed that Capitol "forced" Brian to include it on the album, but Brad Elliott unearthed some documentation indicating that at the very least Brian was in favor of it, and maybe even planned to include it from the beginning.  I think maybe this got confused with Capitol insisting that "Good Vibrations" be included on "SMiLE", and that's where the myth started?

[MBE]

I think Vibrations is essential to Smile too. I thnk Al and Brian never suggested that Al came up with any of the arrangement. All I am saying is that Al may have introduced Brian to the Weavers or at least the song. What we do know for sure is that Al told Brian it may work as a Beach Boys cut in 1965, and it was probably his idea to put any type of "folk" music in the early setlists. Al could never come up with something quite as thought out though Loop De Loop comes close. Yes Brian helped there but like Cottonfields, Al is the one who really turned the simplicity of Brian's cuts into eleaborite productions. Some perfer Brian's simple cuts and that's cool, but by 1969 Al could do some pretty complex things.

btw I always liked Al's Cottonfields better ironically because of Brian whose harmonies are very present. I know many think he isn't on there I have been told by Desper and I think Alan Boyd that Brian did an overdub on the finished song.

[HeyJude]

Hey Hey: I heard about Al's 1990 ouster from some combination of insiders, now I can't remember who right now (Not meaning to be coy, but I wrote that stuff a year or more ago, the info is buried somewhere here in my archives), and also saw a few references to it in copies of business letters I have about Brian's participation in band projects in the late '80s and early '90s.

Peter, thanks for following up on my question. Can you elaborate at all on what this attempted "ousting" involved? Was it simply an attempt to remove Al from the touring band? Did it involve trying to but you his share in Brother? Was Al aware back in 1990 of this attempt to oust him? It would seem like it would be difficult for him to remain in the band knowing this, but then again, it doesn't seem too strange in the world of the Beach Boys. Can you share anything about how this ousting was referred to in documents you saw? I'm just curious about what this entailed, and how it would be referenced in documents involving Brian. I'm just trying to imagine a letter written to Brian asking him to appear at a session or something, followed by something like "P.S. We're trying to kick Al out of the band."

[MBE]

I don't think the time they were going to oust Bruce for Billy in 1969 has been explained either.

[Dan Lega]

     I'm a little more than halfway through the book.  It's definitely a good read and I'll have more to say later on, but I just read Peter's description of "I'm Wanna Pick You Up" and I have to say I was really upset by it.  Yes, I've read a few other people write essentially the same thing on the internet, but it didn't disturb me as much as seeing it in print in a real book.  Peter, I don't have any idea how you come up with your disturbing ideas about the song.  The second line of the song goes, "Cribs and cradles and bottles and toys, are part of joys they bring".  Now from there, how anyone could misinterpret the rest of song, which perfectly describes all things that parents do with children, into being some extremely weird sexual song is way beyond my comprehension.  The song is without a doubt nothing more than a story about a dad and his baby girl, albeit with a double entendre jokey title and first line.  This song has never done anything but bring joy to me.  However, your description of it makes me shudder.

       Love and merci,   Dan Lega

[Peter Ames Carlin]

Hi Dan: Sorry to freak you out, but I can only call 'em like I hear 'em. And given the mood on the vaguely lecherous mood in the rest of the album -- from "Roller Skating Child" to "Honkin' Down the Highway" -- and the commingled images of childhood/adolesence and sexuality, then that's what struck me. I'm not saying that either Brian or Dennis was sexually twisted enough to have a thing for infants or toddlers.  But I think the lines of how they defined/expressed love and affection were a little twistier than the average guy's.

ps: Dennis's kids, for instance, adored the guy. His second wife, Barbara, mother to Michael and Carl, says quickly that despite everything else, Dennis was a terrific, caring dad.

pps: Brian, for all his obvious problems, is at least guileless when it comes to his older kids. And they know it and appreciate it. And him.

[Bicyclerider]

what I found fascinating in Peter's description of Brian's high school home tapes is not the singing as the coversations he recorded, the arguments . . . definitely the precursor to the SMile era party tapes and Vegetables arguments.

[Dan Lega]

    Sorry, but I think it says much more about you than about the Beach Boys to say you find some weird sexual vibe in "I Wanna Pick You Up". 

    Even if some of the other songs have a vaguely lecherous feel (which I don't think they do,) I still don't see how anything other than the obviously jokey title has anything even remotely sexual in it.  As for "Rolling Skating Child" and "Let Us Go This Way" being lecherous, yes, the songs were written by a guy in his mid 30's, but I think it's plainly clear that Brian wrote from the viewpoint of male teenager, not a 35 year old guy.  I don't find the songs lecherous at all.


           Love and merci,    Dan Lega

[Jeff Mason]

Dan, you would have a stronger case if "Hey Little Tomboy" didn't exist, esp. the boot version of it.

[Rocker]

   As for "Rolling Skating Child" and "Let Us Go This Way" being lecherous, yes, the songs were written by a guy in his mid 30's, but I think it's plainly clear that Brian wrote from the viewpoint of male teenager, not a 35 year old guy. 

Than maybe some teenager should have sung it instead of some 35 year old guys... But I don't really care and know if that's lecherous or not. Since english isn't my first language, I listen to the music first.

And btw you wrote that Peter isn't the only one who thinks so, so maybe there is a little truth in it, when other say the same (just my opinion)