Kurt Cobain: Murdered?

[Aegir]

Actually, the detective or whatever that went to Kurt's house he died thinks Courtney Love killed him, too.

But as for who killed John Lennon.. Stephen King.

[I. Spaceman]

If any of you assholes knew Courtney, you'd know she isn't remotely capable of such an act.

[Jonas]

...someone hit a nerve, ian?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I don't think it was Courtney. I personally think it was either a music industry person ( the so-called suicide note was actually a *retirement* letter, with the only parts relating to suicide coming in at the end in an entirely different handwriting) or ,more likely, a former drug contact. C.Love may have had some *knowledge* that it was going to happen, but as far as her being involved....don't think so.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

In case anyone is wondering, this post was supposed to be first, but I buggered up the splitting of the topic.
 Anyway,  I had just finished a book devoted to the subject, "Love and Death", written by Max Wallace and Ian Halperin, a few days ago .

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Ignore

[Jonas]

No need to move any topics, Billy...If anything the member can post it there again.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

D'oh!

[Reverend Joshua Sloane]

Kurt Cobain had had suicide on his mind for a decade and a half before he finally did it. When I was a big fan I of course defended the man, claiming murder. But once out of that mind set it's easy to see a person with sadness in their heart and the balls to take care of it in a shocking way.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

The problems I have with the suicide theory...and these are all *fact*, not speculation or conspiracy theories (I'm leaving those out of this for the moment)

1) Cobain's blood morphine level was over 1.5 per liter; no possible way for him to shoot himself after that. He would have been incapacitated. That level of purity for a shot of smack...no way. Considering he was, in fact, an addict...he would've metabolized the heroin quicker. That means he had to have been given quite a large dose.
2) He weighed about 110-115 pounds, making that level of morphine even more toxic.
3) There was a can of root beer present that was tested and showed to contain Valium.
4) The part I mentioned earlier about the "suicide letter" not actually being such, except at the end....and that showed an entirely different handwriting.
5) Why were there no prints on the shotgun, OR on the pen used to write the note mentioned above? No way Cobain could've smudged his own prints off.

That's just for starters.

NOW for the conjecture time...

My own personal theory is that he was shooting up with someone, and that person gave him a lethal dose of heroin, and then made it look like Kurt shot himself.  Why? Maybe the person (whomever it was) had just bought a bad batch of sh*t, panicked, then tried to cover their tracks. OR it could've been someone whom he p*ssed off. When you start dealing with actual pushers,as opposed to just some guy next door you buy a dime bag of weed from, you're playing an entirely different game.


edit

Let it be said,though, that I do NOT believe Tom Grant's theories about a conspiracy to kill Kurt involving Courtney Love. I'll get into those later.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Let it also be said that if you read what I posted above, I personally think Kurt died by accidental overdose; yes, it was the shotgun blast that actually killed him, but he would've died anyway due to the heroin. So I guess you can call that "death due to gross negligence covered up by murder".

Something like that, anyway.

[Ron]

I think it's sad that fans just won't give up on this.  The animosity shown towards Courtney is some kind of suppressed homosexual jealousy or something.  Kurt AND Courtney were both drug addicts, but obviously very much in love, Courtney would never have had anything to do with that.  Anybody who heard or saw her reading the letter the next day should have enough sense to understand that. 

[Jonas]

  The animosity shown towards Courtney is some kind of suppressed homosexual jealousy or something.

I think it goes beyond that dude. Nirvana can't put out new material or their rarities because SHE does not want them to. She trash talked about Chris and Dave for the last 10 something years. I think she's ridden more on the fame of being Cobain's wife than her shitty excuse of a band, Hole. Personally, I think that she thinks shes an honorary member of Nirvana just because she was married to Cobain who wouldve probably divorced her by now anyway.

I don't think she killed him but she definitely sucks.

[Charles LePage @ ComicList]

None of what I'm going to say changes anything.

I'm not convinced Kurt Cobain killed himself.

I'm not convinced Courtney killed him or had him killed.

I don't think it's impossible she did either.

[cta]

I look at it this way...Courtney's a complete bitch; no one cares anymore.  She had golden chances with "Live Through This" which was a great album and she had chances with her acting career which she blew to complete hell with her merda do touro.  She could have made a name for herself and held her own, but she didn't.   Novoselic is doing his own thing and Grohl's Foo Fighters does have a "what might have been" tinge to it; he could have co-wrote with Cobain because it's obvious Grohl and Cobain were/are both masters of catchy and colorful melodies. 

If Cobain hadn't offed himself/gotten killed/whatever, Nirvana wouldn't have been as well known as they are, which is the major change of mainstream rock music.  Being 16 when Nevermind came out, I was at the perfect age to pick it all up and being on the cusp of change (musically, politically, thoughtfully) for the mainstream, I feel, was sort of a nice gift for me in retrospect.   I remember thinking, "Think God the Harley hair band let's drink Bud and par-tay!" music was going away and fast.  It was then a time for people to be introspective because before that, we'd been riding on a wave of uncertainty and fear (Soviets, hostages, etc) which seems to be back presently.  And I don't like it.   But...Cobain's death, his legacy and his music keeps reminding us of a better time where the future looked bright and warm.   If he still was living, I don't think - in a small way - we'd look back as much. 

It seems to me when famous people are cut off prematurely, it does encapsulate a time whether it be good or bad.  Cobain's death sucked for people like me who loved his music, but what Nirvana changed in the musical landscape was unbelieveable if you look back on it.

I feel that today we're getting that sort of ramping up feeling especially in music which has once again become more defiant, much more retrospective and introspective with the 80's inspired groups of today which, I feel, are sort of currently in their "Stone Temple Pilot's Core" phase, who are on their way to make their own "Purple" and to impress us all, thus possibly starting a chain reaction because our music reflects what we're thinking but yet do not have a full grasp on it until the major changes happen.   People are getting sick and tired of the fear, negativity and a soundtrack that is nothing but melodramatic overboard puff sang for people who live in trailer parks with duct taped windows in some no-name town in Iowa. 

As for the 90's groups kicked off by what Nirvana started, they're now in their "Asia/80's Yes" phase with Velvet Revolver, The Transplants and so on.   A new breed is in the mail - you can hear it and can almost feel it.  It's not here yet, but it's sure to be.  People get fed up when they're constantly scared and being fed fear on a daily basic from what seems like a controlling media and their Faux News-esque minions.

Nirvana was my first exposure to, what I feel, is an interesting sensiblity of how times in the world can be and giving it a color, a warmth and a soundtrack.   Cobain's death was probably one of those defining moments, although it was very sad, but it continues us to keep looking back at his death and that particular time which to me seems like almost last week, but is now coming up on 14 or 15 years.

We're due.  Some may die in the process, but that's what happens in these types of cases. 

How Cobain died, for the most part, is irrelevant today.  But the impact and the things happening at what seemed to be a rather calm time screeches with deafening volume.

[I. Spaceman]

I think it's sad that fans just won't give up on this.  The animosity shown towards Courtney is some kind of suppressed homosexual jealousy or something.  Kurt AND Courtney were both drug addicts, but obviously very much in love, Courtney would never have had anything to do with that.  Anybody who heard or saw her reading the letter the next day should have enough sense to understand that. 

Word, Ron.

[Jonas]

yeah but that really has nothing to do with the fact that a lot of evidence is against suicide. I love how he has to throw in a quick jab in there to make his point as well.

very classy!

[Charles LePage @ ComicList]

[Jonas]

I can't read that sh*t...wheres the cliffnotes version?

[Charles LePage @ ComicList]

To Boddah:

Speaking from the tongue of an experienced simpleton who obviously would rather be an emasculated, infantile complain-ee. This note should be pretty easy to understand.

All the warnings from the punk rock 101 courses over the years, since my first introduction to the, shall we say, ethics involved with independence and the embracement of your community had proven to be very true. I haven't felt the excitement of listening to as well as creating music along with reading and writing for too many years now. I feel guilty beyond words about these things.

For example, when we're backstage and the lights go out and the manic roar of the crowds begin, it doesn't affect me the way in which it did for Freddie Mercury, who seemed to love, relish in the love and adoration from the crowd which is something I totally admire and envy. The fact is, I can't fool you, any one of you. It simply isn't fair to you or me. The worst crime I can think of would be to rip people off by faking it and pretending as if I'm having 100% fun.

Sometimes I feel as if I should have a punch-in time clock before I walk out on stage. I've tried everything within my power to appreciate it (and I do, God, believe me I do, but it's not enough). I appreciate the fact that I and we have affected and entertained a lot of people. It must be one of those narcissists who only appreciate things when they're gone. I'm too sensitive. I need to be slightly numb in order to regain the enthusiasms I once had as a child.

On our last 3 tours, I've had a much better appreciation for all the people I've known personally, and as fans of our music, but I still can't get over the frustration, the guilt and empathy I have for everyone. There's good in all of us and I think I simply love people too much, so much that it makes me feel too fucking sad. The sad little, sensitive, unappreciative, Pisces, Jesus man. Why don't you just enjoy it? I don't know!

I have a goddess of a wife who sweats ambition and empathy and a daughter who reminds me too much of what I used to be, full of love and joy, kissing every person she meets because everyone is good and will do her no harm. And that terrifies me to the point to where I can barely function. I can't stand the thought of Frances becoming the miserable, self-destructive, death rocker that I've become.

I have it good, very good, and I'm grateful, but since the age of seven, I've become hateful towards all humans in general. Only because it seems so easy for people to get along that have empathy. Only because I love and feel sorry for people too much, I guess.

Thank you all from the pit of my burning, nauseous stomach for your letters and concern during the past years. I'm too much of an erratic, moody baby! I don't have the passion anymore, and so remember, it's better to burn out than to fade away.

Peace, love, empathy,

Kurt Cobain

Frances and Courtney, I'll be at your altar.
Please keep going Courtney, for Frances.
For her life, which will be so much happier without me.

I love you, I love you!

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Frances and Courtney, I'll be at your altar.
Please keep going Courtney, for Frances.
For her life, which will be so much happier without me.

I love you, I love you!

Notice how the above is in completely different handwriting?

Shortly after I got the idea for this topic, I heard on the news that yesterday was the 12 year anniversary of Cobain's death. 12 years...wow.

[JScott]

Looks like the same handwriting to me, just bigger for effect.

It's possible that he was shotgunned after he OD'd, but he had OD'd himself into a hospital a few weeks before that. Poor Kurt wasn't gonna be around much longer, he was just too unhappy. He wanted to die and you can't blame his death on somebody else, he made it happen.

I don't think there are nearly as many conspiracies in the world as we think. Somehow it's just more comforting to our loss if it's more complicated and we can blame more people.

[endofposts]

I found something off about Kurt Cobain from the time I viewed the video for "Teen Spirit." He just reeked of low self-esteem, the way he had his hair covering his eyes, and his slumped posture.  I can imagine a guy offering himself up for public consumption and being successful at it later being inspired to kill himself.  There's nothing worse than a person who hates themselves to have their face and everything else plastered all over the place.

I think Courtney was bad for Kurt, and Kurt was bad for her.  Sort of like the Fitzgeralds, or maybe John and Yoko.  Reading that letter, I get the idea that maybe Kurt killed himself partly over having a wife and child.  Not because he hated them, but because he was not ready to grow up.  The marriage to Courtney and having Frances was partly a catalyst for him killing himself (or being in a situation where his suicide was facilitated) because he was overwhelmed by the responsibility.  But maybe if Kurt hadn't killed himself, Courtney wouldn't be as messed up as she has been over the past years.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Looks like the same handwriting to me, just bigger for effect.

The structure of all the letters is totally different. Different writing.

I also have always wondered what was written in the parts that are blacked out; were the black-out originally, or after the fact?

Something I've wondered about, that we will never know...

Suppose he DID commit suicide, and had a friend help him to make it look like he was murdered, so Frances (and maybe Courtney,too) could still get the insurance money (in addition to his estate)?

We will never know.

[cta]

Billy C's never going to be convinced of it being suicide.  And that's not a bad thing either.  It's good to keep the gears moving.  Hell, I don't buy the 911 lemon one darned bit, but that's a different discussion for a different time...ON A DIFFERENT BOARD! 

It does have it's shady elements; no question there.  Such situations as Cobain's whole personal issue/matters were quite a good breeding ground for a possible story-lemon to be thrown at the public, but we're not talking billion dollar deals in the making here.  We're simply talking about a rock star that got snuffed out voluntarily or involuntarily...had he lived, I don't think Nevermind & In Utero would stick out like turds in a punchbowl like they do.  Okay, maybe not turds, but like a massive million dollar diamond surrounded by other small diamonds, fool's gold and gems you couldn't sell to the most uninformed about jewelry.   You get the picture.