Did Brian's use of session musicians hurt the Beach Boys popularity?

[keysarsoze001]

There are some sort-of factual errors here.

They WERE there for GV sessions, and Mike played the theremin part on stage with much fun.  And of course, they participated, minus Mike, in the tracking session for "That's Not Me" with no problems at all.  Carl and Dennis played on plenty of Smile tracks with apparently no complaints.

Lyrically, there is room for debate, but instrumentally, the boys including Mike never had any complaints.  Also, these guys were used to recording tracks without any idea of what the lyrics were.  Of course it wouldn't sound exactly the same, but the heavy presence of the Beach Boys as musicians on both Today and Summer Days suggests they could have gone on just fine in a similar vein.

Oh, I know they were present for at least some of that material. Some of the best tracks on Today! feature the boys heavily. I'm just thinking on some of the more...I don't know, unusual or maybe introspective moments on PS, I think they'd end up sounding differently because of the input or objections of the band, and it would just plain sound different, potentially not as engaging, or different songs would've been used altogether. I mean, surely Mike was ok with the theremin on stage because the song was the biggest hit in the world, but I doubt he would've agreed to play it on the sessions. I think with GV Brian had everyone (including the Wrecking Crew) so baffled as to what the holy hell they were recording, that it was hard to object to anything when you were only privy to 30 seconds of it at a time.

And I mean, Carl and Dennis were clearly the ones who were the most inclined to follow Brian's lead in that period, right? Certainly the direction Denny's music ended up going was influenced by Brian, and not the "Chug a Lug" Brian, but the "artistic" Brian. Carl generally was more inclined to cut his brother some slack in that regard too, or else there would've been no "Mt Vernon" 45, right?

Basically I guess I'm not talking about the entire band, so much. I'm saying Mike would've passive-aggressively bullied Brian into doubting stuff like "Don't Talk" or "I Just Wasn't Made for These Times". Why you have to write such a downer, Cousin Brian?

[keysarsoze001]

Picture "You Still Believe in Me" with lyrics about cars.

The notion of Mike taking over Smile or Pet Sounds with lyrics about cars or surfing is absurd by that point in time. One need only listen to "Good Vibrations", Smiley Smile, Wild Honey etc. etc. etc. (not to mention most lyrics on Today! and Summer Days) to realize even Mike was kind of over that stuff as a lyricist until the mid 70s when even Brian was on board with the oldies thing (sans "Do It Again", but the whole song aims for that).

Yer point still stands, though. I don't know if it really would have went down like that, as not everyone in the group said they were unsure of the newer material. Don't forget that aside from vocals, the guys do appear on several Smile tracks - Dennis playing drums on "Holidays" or organ on "Good Vibrations", for instance. There's also the fact that Brian had them doing stuff like recording in his swimming pool, recording themselves eating vegetables, laying on the ground making animal noises etc. etc. etc. around the same time. Brian was questioned by Mike and maybe others within the band, but they ultimately trusted him and went along with what he was doing regardless of what he asked. I don't think them playing the basic tracks instead of the Wrecking Crew would have changed that.

No, of course. I was being glib because I'm one of those fans with a chip on his shoulder over Mike in general. He obviously wrote about plenty of other things on albums in that era, and even more so in the several which followed. I'm just saying, if there was grumbling over the second side of Today being a downer, and let's face it, most of PS is a downer, wouldn't the same thing have happened?

The trouble with someone like Brian to me is (and this is PURELY speculative), I can imagine him being the sort of person where all you need to do is plant the seed of doubt for it to grow and grow in his head to the point where he doesn't believe in the idea himself anymore. Something (grossly oversimplified, I admit) like this:

BW: OK, guys, so I want you to crawl around and make barnyard noises.
ML: What the hell?
BW: Yeah, it'll be more realistic if you're down there doing it, cause that's where the goats and pigs would be.
ML: Can't you just use something from Capitol's sound effects library for this?
CW: I'm sure Brian knows what he's doing.
BW (to himself): Wait...DO I know what I'm doing? No one's done this before. What if it's a terrible idea? What if I lose whatever credibility I have left? No one liked how I used all those tacet moments in "The Little Girl I Once Knew". No one bought Pet Sounds. I should just give up. (to the boys) Forget it, guys. It's a stupid idea. We'll do something else instead.
ML: No, no, Cousin Brian, we were gonna do it. We're just giving you a hard time.
BW: No, it's a terrible idea. Let's forget it.

Again, that's a gross oversimplification of the dynamic in the studio. But it's what I imagine happening based on how easily he gave up on ideas dear to him in subsequent years. He had no fighting sprit in the studio anymore, because he was probably afraid of rejection. That comes from somewhere, and it wasn't just Murray.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Basically I guess I'm not talking about the entire band, so much. I'm saying Mike would've passive-aggressively bullied Brian into doubting stuff like "Don't Talk" or "I Just Wasn't Made for These Times". Why you have to write such a downer, Cousin Brian?

But Mike's role would have been the same regardless of who is playing on the record, as a non-instrumentalist.  And he certainly didn't "bully" Brian into doubting anything on the record.  I find your hypothesis strange, in this post-Mike-as-villain world in which we live.

[Ron]

I can actually see your ponit Keysaroze001.  I see Brian and Mike as two diffrerent personalities, I can definately see Brian taking Mike's objections or even casual comments as 'seeds' of doubt. 

The only possible difference of opinion here may be though, that in my opinion, that's an issue with Brian, not Mike.  Mike is Mike, and if Mike wasn't there, somebody else would plant the seed in Brian's head. 

I also think that's something that happened in the 60's, I don't think Brian's like that anymore. 

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

No, of course. I was being glib because I'm one of those fans with a chip on his shoulder over Mike in general. He obviously wrote about plenty of other things on albums in that era, and even more so in the several which followed. I'm just saying, if there was grumbling over the second side of Today being a downer, and let's face it, most of PS is a downer, wouldn't the same thing have happened?

The trouble with someone like Brian to me is (and this is PURELY speculative), I can imagine him being the sort of person where all you need to do is plant the seed of doubt for it to grow and grow in his head to the point where he doesn't believe in the idea himself anymore. Something (grossly oversimplified, I admit) like this:

He had no fighting sprit in the studio anymore, because he was probably afraid of rejection. That comes from somewhere, and it wasn't just Murray.

All of this seems contrary to fact to me.  Was there grumbling over the second side of Today?  Where is there any evidence that Brian had anything but the utmost control or belief in the music he put out in his prime?  

The loss of fighting spirit in the studio doesn't happen until well past Pet Sounds.

[keysarsoze001]

I can actually see your ponit Keysaroze001.  I see Brian and Mike as two diffrerent personalities, I can definately see Brian taking Mike's objections or even casual comments as 'seeds' of doubt. 

The only possible difference of opinion here may be though, that in my opinion, that's an issue with Brian, not Mike.  Mike is Mike, and if Mike wasn't there, somebody else would plant the seed in Brian's head. 

I also think that's something that happened in the 60's, I don't think Brian's like that anymore. 

Oh, it's totally a fault of Brian's. Yes, if it hadn't been Mike, it would've been someone else. I think Mike just was the most likely one to even jokingly say something that might plant that seed, and as soon as Brian latches on to something like that, an "oops, lost my head" wouldn't be enough to take back the joke, you know? Brian's just too damn sensitive. It's one of his biggest flaws, but of course with out that, he wouldn't be inclined to write so many non-tough-guy songs.

As for the post-Mike-as-Villain world, I haven't moved there yet. Sorry.

[Ron]

I'm firmly in that world, lol, but I agree with you on the other stuff.  I also agree with Aijiji though that I think it happened later, nobody was fucking with Brian during Today, he was running things and doing a damn fine job of it. 

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Brian's just too damn sensitive.

...

As for the post-Mike-as-Villain world, I haven't moved there yet. Sorry.

Well, we're here to help you get there.

I disagree that Brian was too sensitive.  What gives you that idea?  Every record through Smiley Smile bears his almost absolute imprimatur.  When his Dad got in the way, he fired him.  When the record company wanted his masters, he said, "No thanks, I'll be keeping these.  Oh, and by the way, I'll pick the studio too."  When the band wasn't sure about Smile and others thought it was a little out there he scrapped it and gave them something much stranger in Smiley Smile.  

If anything, I would argue that Brian was not sensitive enough.  He didn't understand how to deal with people sensitively and sometimes he'd steamroll them.  That, of course, contributes to his greatness on some level, too.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I think there just might be a notable difference between having questions or snickers about lyrics and taking a untied stand against them and demanding the lyrics are changed to songs about girls and cars (BTW, aren't most of the songs on Pet Sounds about girls anyway?)...... BUT, I do think that with the wrecking crew, no one questioned Brian about a damn thing, therefore he was able to work much faster and get things locked in and done when inspiration struck him. That's a big difference between corralling your friends, cousin, and brothers into not goofing off despite everyone's best intentions..... I'm just seeing the value in both sides here.

[Wirestone]

But, of course, it's that attitude from Mike that made him the group's only plausible frontman in the early years (Dennis could have arguably done it later, but that's another story), the best lead vocalist for the surf and car hits, and one of Brian's better lyricists.

Brian, I'm pretty sure, likes that attitude. He even depended on it in the early days. It's something he admired about his cousin. To have it then turned against him, though, as the years passed, must have been difficult. It's like falling in love with someone for their vocabulary, and then they use it to insult you really elaborately all the time. That would hurt! And even though that person was being true to themselves and their abilities, it would be tough.

[runnersdialzero]

Brian was obviously that way to an extent. A total shame. Not sure what you mean by "That comes from somewhere, and it wasn't just Murry." Brian put his heart and soul into Mount Vernon And Fairway only to have Carl say he didn't think it would work on the album. Brian flees, hurt and rejected, and stops contributing or participating completely for a short while because of it.

Rejection of an idea from Mike Love or Carl Wilson wouldn't cause such an extreme reaction in most people. Carl and Dennis disagreed over Surf's Up, so Dennis said, "f*ck you, I'm going to do something by myself." In Brian Wilson, mentally ill (and still undiagnosed, or at least very under-diagnosed) and who was brought up with the the brutal conditioning Murry put him through, the kind where rejection of something Brian did meant physical and mental abuse, is the kind of thing that creates this sort of reaction.

Considering Brian's past as a leader (which was seemingly a bit weakened over time by the mental illness), this stuff wasn't well understood by the people around Brian at the time, folks like Carl or Mike would be more likely to speak up if they weren't sure about something. You're a band, you're a family, and you're gonna disagree sooner or later (if not all the God damn time, which is pretty common). Even after all that, though, they ultimately trusted Brian's direction and decisions. Someone may have said "Brian, this whole making-animal-noises thing is a bit weird, don't you think?" but minutes later had said, "Okay, let's give it a shot," and were on the floor mooing their ass off. Brian's decision to shelve Smile is a very complex thing that can't be pinpointed to one reason, too.

[Ron]

But, of course, it's that attitude from Mike that made him the group's only plausible frontman in the early years (Dennis could have arguably done it later, but that's another story), the best lead vocalist for the surf and car hits, and one of Brian's better lyricists.

Brian, I'm pretty sure, likes that attitude. He even depended on it in the early days. It's something he admired about his cousin. To have it then turned against him, though, as the years passed, must have been difficult. It's like falling in love with someone for their vocabulary, and then they use it to insult you really elaborately all the time. That would hurt! And even though that person was being true to themselves and their abilities, it would be tough.

That is interesting.  I think it's worth saying too, that hell it's hard to get along with anybody with a strong personality for a long time.  After a while you need a break.  Even if they're family; especially if they're family!

[keysarsoze001]

Brian was obviously that way to an extent. A total shame. Not sure what you mean by "That comes from somewhere, and it wasn't just Murry."

The examples you gave afterwards are exactly what I mean. I think tiny little put downs or casual remarks, or, yes, goofing off during tracking sessions, or making fun of the Mickey Mouse voice, all that stuff which frankly is what you expect when you put a bunch of relatives in the room together for years on end; it does sometimes build to a head, and when you're Brian Wilson, who might not interpret everything the same way most people do, he was probably more hurt by it than you'd think. When Brian would do something creative, I think it was like his baby, it was really important to him as an expression of himself. Now, if you bring your newborn around to show the family and someone jokingly says "Oh, man! Look how fat his cheeks are!" they probably don't mean anything by it. But the parent would probably bristle and get really defensive of it. At that point they either choose to get angry and fight back (as Brian did with Murry), or they decide, you know what, I'm not going to let these guys babysit. I think somewhere along the line, Brian stopped reacting to those things with the former choice and switched to the latter, so that eventually he just wasn't bringing them songs at all.

I mean, from his perspective, it was a little much. "Brian, we got a new album, we need some songs. Get off your ass and write something." "Well, I've got these big band songs." "What the hell? We're not that kind of group. Write something else." "OK, I've got this song that's basically a suicide note where I compare myself to a cork." "What a downer! We're not that kind of group. Write something else." "Well, I've got this fairy tale about a radio." "What the hell?! Brian! Will you just write something normal for once!"

Again, not an accurate depiction of how those things went, but I suspect that to some degree or another that's how those conversations were perceived by Brian. It's just a hunch I have.

[kookadams]

Of course the Beach Boys are arguably one of the best and most critically and commercially accepted and respected American bands of the rock era. But I really can't help thinking that a lot of the reason why the average person doesn't look at them as "revolutionary" like bands such as the Beatles or Led Zeppelin is because they were not ever really known for playing their own instruments. The fact that none of them (except Brian) are ever individually credited for much at all. You never see any of them individually on any lists for Greatest (Drummer, Guitarist, Songwriter) which kinda leads me to believe that even tho the music itself may be respected, that they as a band in all are not universally accepted as a huge band (like the Beatles are). The Beatles did of course use session musicians but all the drums, bass, and guitar and production techniques were done by them. Or any other band really, I just say the Beatles because of their extensive popularity with basically everyone. But do you know what I mean? Do you agree?

The Beach Boys were beyond revolutionary

[KittyKat]

I don't blame the Beach Boys for not wanting to put out a big band album.Not to mention their record label. Those songs are a novelty to hear in bootleg form, but as an actual commercial release? "Love You" is weird enough, and that was not exactly a hot seller. I say that as a fan of "Love You." "Mount Vernon and Fairway" has an interesting backing track, but again, not at all commercial or even very good as art for art's sake, and it's a measure of how much Brian was indulged that it was released as a special 45 with "Holland."  I've listened to "Fairway" about two times, maybe a couple of other times just listening to the instrumental track. I don't think a big band album or or "Mount Vernon and Fairway" would have been good ideas as Brian Wilson solo projects, let alone Beach Boys releases.

[Cam Mott]

"Mt. Vernon and Fairway" being released at all in connection with the band proves to me the band never stopped Brian from anything he wanted.

[Cam Mott]

But, of course, it's that attitude from Mike that made him the group's only plausible frontman in the early years (Dennis could have arguably done it later, but that's another story), the best lead vocalist for the surf and car hits, and one of Brian's better lyricists.

Brian, I'm pretty sure, likes that attitude. He even depended on it in the early days. It's something he admired about his cousin. To have it then turned against him, though, as the years passed, must have been difficult. It's like falling in love with someone for their vocabulary, and then they use it to insult you really elaborately all the time. That would hurt! And even though that person was being true to themselves and their abilities, it would be tough.

When did Mike turn his attitude on Brian?

[Mr. Wilson]

I have been at a few concerts some with BW present some not were Mike said this after performing H+V.. " After all these years WE still don't know what that songs about " Then he laughs and shakes his head..  Seems kinda hurtful to me.. And the audience doesn't respond at all.. And read the june 2012 rolling stone interview at the start of the tour..

[KittyKat]

In other bands, people have been known to criticize other band member's material, rightly or wrongly. It's not unheard of. Some of them even have had long running feuds where they put the other guy down. For example, John Lennon wrote a song about Paul McCartney called "How Do You Sleep" where he put down Paul's solo songs, including "Just Another Day." John also added the line, "Those freaks were right when they said you were dead." (Alluding to a late '60s hoax about Paul being dead.). Of course, John meant Paul was artistically dead, but still, pretty mean. Of course, people though John was the cool one and Paul was the uncool one, so in their eyes, it was okay.