Did Brian's use of session musicians hurt the Beach Boys popularity?

[guitarfool2002]

Do you mean the school in Boston? That's Berklee. I think grads actually spend up to 30% of their time correcting misspellings of it. If only they knew that when it was founded!

As a Berklee grad I can not only vouch for that but also say how often in conversation people think "Berklee" is actually "U. Cal. Berkeley" in California. The name comes from the founder's son Lee Berk, who eventually took over the presidency of the school from his father and was still president when I was there.

I think there are a few entries in things like the Pet Sounds Sessions booklet that some of the session musicians went to Schillinger House - that was the school's name before being renamed Berklee.

[Jon Stebbins]

Do you mean the school in Boston? That's Berklee. I think grads actually spend up to 30% of their time correcting misspellings of it. If only they knew that when it was founded!

Of course I mean Berklee. Its spelled right all 63 times it's mentioned in my book about David...because I have a copy editor who earns her pay.

[ontor pertawst]

Muahhaha! Nicely put. I think I'm just conditioned due to going out with a Berklee grad for most of the 00s. Fabulous musician, but man -- she just didn't get Sister Ray. Ah well.

[Jon Stebbins]

Muahhaha! Nicely put. I think I'm just conditioned due to going out with a Berklee grad for most of the 00s. Fabulous musician, but man -- she just didn't get Sister Ray. Ah well.

Unfortunately my fingers are conditioned from growing up near Cal.

[NHC]

There used to be a fairly ingrained myth that Dennis Wilson was the "least talented" of the Beach Boys. More recently and more ingrained there was a myth that David Marks was no more than a face on an album cover...and that he had nothing to do with the genesis of the Beach Boys. Now nearly everyone is saying how essential Dave is to this reunion, what a great musician he is, and how happy they are for him. A majority of people used to tell me he was a joke and basically nothing. Misplaced perceptions can change when strong evidence is presented to the contrary. The truth is the truth.

Dennis Wilson = second best composer/arranger/producer in the Beach Boys
David Marks = best musician in the Beach Boys
Beach Boys = played the instruments on the majority of their hits and classic material

These are facts

What about Brian as a musician? Seems he plays alot of instruments well, so what makes Dave better?

True, Brian can handle a number of instruments, but more as a composer than a performer or player.  Is he a better pianist than David is a guitarist?  No, but he didn't have to be in order to compose all those songs. It's a different standard. One could say the same regarding Bruce.  Hal Blaine is attributed as saying Bruce, with his years of training and talent,  was the best session piano player he'd ever worked with. Brian doesn't have those same playing skills, that we know of at least, but neither Bruce nor David will  give you any argument as to who the better composer /arranger is.

[joe_blow]

Adding more to this topic, do you think many have an opinion about the Beach Boys as musicians when they see the presentation on the current tour?

It is understood that most bands have backing musicians. However, if The 4 Beach Boys playing on this tour - Dave and Al (guitar), Brian (piano) and Bruce (keyboards) were not plugged in, would the sound be any different? I am not sure. Maybe Dave's guitar is higher in the mix than the backing band?

Or, how would the sound be if there were no backing band except for a bassist and drummer? Obviously thin, but would be curious to hear how much they are playing. Imagine getting a soundboard recording of Bruce's keyboard!

[keysarsoze001]

As far as I can tell, most of Brian's piano playing is as a rhythm instrument, almost strictly chord-based. Other than the boogie-woogie based songs on the early records, where he did a little bit of soloing (which, even then, was mostly chord based), you listen to the piano/keyboard parts on BB albums and the parts all sound like the opening to "Message Man": dun-dun-dun-dun, dun-dun-dun-dun, dun-dun-dun-dun. Sometimes he'd do arpeggios or maybe a riff or two, or if he was overdubbing a lot like on Love You it'd be more intricate because he did multiple passes to arrive at it. Sometimes his left hand would get a little fancy (the run-down during the coda of "Surf's Up", for instance) but he wasn't throwing all kinds of fancy Ben Folds-style business in there. He just isn't that type of player. He uses it to compose, and if he's proficient at anything on it, it's finding strange chord combinations, or unusual root notes to change the color of a chord (again, "Surf's Up" is loaded with that kind of thing). I suspect he plays this way because his frame of mind is always about harmony, hearing multiple notes at the same time to see how they compliment or contrast with each other.

As for David, I dearly hope that if there's another BB album after this, Brian takes full advantage of his abilities to enhance the songs. He could be a real asset to him in terms of coloring the arrangements. I picture Scott struggling with the Spanish guitar fills on the DVD of TLOS and think to myself that Dave could do that sort of thing.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I think when you look at The Beach Boys in comparison to other bands, if The cult of Brian wasn't so rabid, ALL of the Beach Boys (yes, including Mike) would be considered geniuses.... As in, if any of the Beach Boys contributions to The Beach Boys had been for any other band, they'd have gotten A LOT more respect. But when it comes to The Beach Boys people get all messed up in the head and seem to assume that Brian is the only guy in the world who can come up with a chord sequence. If just serves to throw perception out of whack about anyone else's contributions.

[keysarsoze001]

That's putting a little bit too fine a point on it, I think. Yes, the cult of Brian gives undue credit to his mediocre work and unfairly classifies Carl's songs as second-rate. But Brian did do a fair deal more than come up with some chords. That said, if the band existed with, say, Dennis as the chief songwriter, then who knows? Perhaps they'd have been popular as well and Dennis would've gotten more credit for being a really excellent songwriter. It's sort of the same thing with John Lennon. Because he was the "genius" of the group, many fans ignore the dreadful material he released and the fact that he was basically an impossible human being, and focus only on his classic material, as if it's the whole story.

[bgas]

I think when you look at The Beach Boys in comparison to other bands, if The cult of Brian wasn't so rabid, ALL of the Beach Boys (yes, including Mike) would be considered geniuses.... As in, if any of the Beach Boys contributions to The Beach Boys had been for any other band, they'd have gotten A LOT more respect. But when it comes to The Beach Boys people get all messed up in the head and seem to assume that Brian is the only guy in the world who can come up with a chord sequence. If just serves to throw perception out of whack about anyone else's contributions.

Except, they wouldn't have ever started to make contributions anywhere else, because they'd have never had Brian's groundbreaking to get any of them started in the first place

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

That's not necessarily true and impossible to assume. It is much more logical to assume Al would have pursued folk music and Carl and Dave would have kept playing guitar and likely formed a band or joined a band or bands. Dennis and Mike? Who knows. But we do know Mike was bugging Brian to start a band..... It's impossible to say, but groundbreaking mojo of the Brian sort has never been necessary for there to be musical success on whatever level. And I certainly don't mean to denigrate Brian or all he's done. Absolutely not. I'm just saying that Brian being Brian has never had to come at the expense of recognizing anyone else in his band's talents. They are all amazing singers! Mike is a great lyricist and song collaborator. Dennis was as good as Brian (and even better in some respects) and Carl was damn good as well and Bruce/Al were more than capable. Brian being a genius shouldn't put fantastic songs/contributions by the other guys in some lesser category just because Brian gets called a genius.

[keysarsoze001]

I'm with you in praising Mike as a lyricist. In some alternate version of the world I like to think there's a TLOS with Mike lyrics all over it.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Two words: Endless Summer

[Nothgual]

Well Brian did get 52 or something on the best vocalists on Rolling Stone's list.
I remember reading Carol Kaye argue that Brian losing his permission to use the Wrecking Crew had a hand in their declining popularity and I agree completely. The Beach Boys had world class musicians and that was a complete benefit. Pet Sounds would not have been able to give the Beach Boys their renewed respect if it was played by the Beach Boys. I'm sorry but they just weren't the greatest instrumentalists.

[Wirestone]

Well Brian did get 52 or something on the best vocalists on Rolling Stone's list.
I remember reading Carol Kaye argue that Brian losing his permission to use the Wrecking Crew had a hand in their declining popularity and I agree completely. The Beach Boys had world class musicians and that was a complete benefit. Pet Sounds would not have been able to give the Beach Boys their renewed respect if it was played by the Beach Boys. I'm sorry but they just weren't the greatest instrumentalists.

Brian never "lost permission" to use session guys. When he wanted to record with them, he used them. They're on nearly all of his post-Smile BB albums, to greater and lesser extents. (Heck, he even has a wrecking crew guy on Love You!)

[Nothgual]

Well Brian did get 52 or something on the best vocalists on Rolling Stone's list.
I remember reading Carol Kaye argue that Brian losing his permission to use the Wrecking Crew had a hand in their declining popularity and I agree completely. The Beach Boys had world class musicians and that was a complete benefit. Pet Sounds would not have been able to give the Beach Boys their renewed respect if it was played by the Beach Boys. I'm sorry but they just weren't the greatest instrumentalists.

Brian never "lost permission" to use session guys. When he wanted to record with them, he used them. They're on nearly all of his post-Smile BB albums, to greater and lesser extents. (Heck, he even has a wrecking crew guy on Love You!)

Darn Catch A Wave biography wrong again. Thanks for correcting me. But my opinion on the beneficence of the Wrecking Crew on their career stands.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Well Brian did get 52 or something on the best vocalists on Rolling Stone's list.
I remember reading Carol Kaye argue that Brian losing his permission to use the Wrecking Crew had a hand in their declining popularity and I agree completely. The Beach Boys had world class musicians and that was a complete benefit. Pet Sounds would not have been able to give the Beach Boys their renewed respect if it was played by the Beach Boys. I'm sorry but they just weren't the greatest instrumentalists.

Brian never "lost permission" to use session guys. When he wanted to record with them, he used them. They're on nearly all of his post-Smile BB albums, to greater and lesser extents. (Heck, he even has a wrecking crew guy on Love You!)

More than just one guy...

[Wirestone]

Well Brian did get 52 or something on the best vocalists on Rolling Stone's list.
I remember reading Carol Kaye argue that Brian losing his permission to use the Wrecking Crew had a hand in their declining popularity and I agree completely. The Beach Boys had world class musicians and that was a complete benefit. Pet Sounds would not have been able to give the Beach Boys their renewed respect if it was played by the Beach Boys. I'm sorry but they just weren't the greatest instrumentalists.

Brian never "lost permission" to use session guys. When he wanted to record with them, he used them. They're on nearly all of his post-Smile BB albums, to greater and lesser extents. (Heck, he even has a wrecking crew guy on Love You!)

More than just one guy...

Steve Douglas on sax was the only one that came to mind. Who am I missing? (I mean, I'd guess some are on Good Time, but that one's old ...)

[HighOnLife]

I think the Boys could have cranked out Pet Sounds on the basic instruments if they had the session guys handle the brass and woodwinds. There are songs they did that many people assumed that the Wrecking Crew did based on how good they sound.

[keysarsoze001]

I'm gonna double back to my earlier opinion that it's not a matter of whether or not PS could have been recorded by the BBs, at least the track bed. The question is whether or not they WOULD. I mean, Brian got grief because side 2 of Today! was too depressing. He got sh*t from Mike about the PS songs being too serious and down. I feel like because the boys knew they needed a product and Brian had all that work done, they just went ahead with the vocals, but if they'd be there to influence the song selection, tone of the lyrics, any of that stuff, I'm convinced the album wouldn't be the same. Firstly, Mike probably would've convinced Brian to let him rewrite the lyrics instead of using Tony's words, at least on some of the tracks. Picture "You Still Believe in Me" with lyrics about cars. The two instrumentals probably wouldn't have been recorded at all. I just don't see the guys going for it, because by and large they STILL think of it as the record with GOK, WIBN, and the Sloop single from the year before, with a whole bunch of pretentious woe-is-me stuff from Brian. Same was true with SMiLE. If they'd been there during the sessions for GV, there'd be no theremin. If they'd been there for SMiLE, it would've fallen apart even sooner than it did. I can't picture the boys putting up with wearing fire helmets and being told the percussion needs to sound more like jewelry. Or doing take after take explaining to Denny that he's supposed to be putting the friggin' fire out by hitting his toms. And I doubt Brian would've even tried to go through those exercises with the boys. The only reason he felt liberated to be so adventurous with those tracks was because he was surrounded by people who had suggestions, yes, but who didn't criticize or belittle the work he was doing. If we consider that at least part of the reason SMiLE was shelved was because of nit-picking and confusion from the rest of the band, or how stuff like "Til I Die" or basically all of Adult Child was likewise rejected by them, we know there's a proud history of discouraging his flights of fancy within the group. I don't know, maybe I'm totally off-base here (and I encourage those with far more knowledge about this than me to say as much), but I just don't see PS coming out to sound basically the same but just happening to have different musicians on the tracks.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Well Brian did get 52 or something on the best vocalists on Rolling Stone's list.
I remember reading Carol Kaye argue that Brian losing his permission to use the Wrecking Crew had a hand in their declining popularity and I agree completely. The Beach Boys had world class musicians and that was a complete benefit. Pet Sounds would not have been able to give the Beach Boys their renewed respect if it was played by the Beach Boys. I'm sorry but they just weren't the greatest instrumentalists.

Brian never "lost permission" to use session guys. When he wanted to record with them, he used them. They're on nearly all of his post-Smile BB albums, to greater and lesser extents. (Heck, he even has a wrecking crew guy on Love You!)

More than just one guy...

Steve Douglas on sax was the only one that came to mind. Who am I missing? (I mean, I'd guess some are on Good Time, but that one's old ...)

Migliori, as well.

[Ron]

Adding more to this topic, do you think many have an opinion about the Beach Boys as musicians when they see the presentation on the current tour?

It is understood that most bands have backing musicians. However, if The 4 Beach Boys playing on this tour - Dave and Al (guitar), Brian (piano) and Bruce (keyboards) were not plugged in, would the sound be any different? I am not sure. Maybe Dave's guitar is higher in the mix than the backing band?

Or, how would the sound be if there were no backing band except for a bassist and drummer? Obviously thin, but would be curious to hear how much they are playing. Imagine getting a soundboard recording of Bruce's keyboard!

Off topic, sorry : Once, in the 80's, a soundboard recording of Linda McCartney's keyboards, and vocals, leaked out.  It kind of showed her to be off, a lot.  It was really embarassing and a big deal was made of it, which I always thought was pretty crappy, she wasn't even really a musician, attacking a guy's wife like that was kind of low, everybody knows she was on stage for Paul, not for her own ego. 

Anyways, I digress.  Personally I don't think the Beach Boys are playing much of anything on stage, although David is obviously playing leads from time to time. 

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I'm gonna double back to my earlier opinion that it's not a matter of whether or not PS could have been recorded by the BBs, at least the track bed. The question is whether or not they WOULD. I mean, Brian got grief because side 2 of Today! was too depressing. He got sh*t from Mike about the PS songs being too serious and down. I feel like because the boys knew they needed a product and Brian had all that work done, they just went ahead with the vocals, but if they'd be there to influence the song selection, tone of the lyrics, any of that stuff, I'm convinced the album wouldn't be the same. Firstly, Mike probably would've convinced Brian to let him rewrite the lyrics instead of using Tony's words, at least on some of the tracks. Picture "You Still Believe in Me" with lyrics about cars. The two instrumentals probably wouldn't have been recorded at all. I just don't see the guys going for it, because by and large they STILL think of it as the record with GOK, WIBN, and the Sloop single from the year before, with a whole bunch of pretentious woe-is-me stuff from Brian. Same was true with SMiLE. If they'd been there during the sessions for GV, there'd be no theremin. If they'd been there for SMiLE, it would've fallen apart even sooner than it did. I can't picture the boys putting up with wearing fire helmets and being told the percussion needs to sound more like jewelry. Or doing take after take explaining to Denny that he's supposed to be putting the friggin' fire out by hitting his toms. And I doubt Brian would've even tried to go through those exercises with the boys. The only reason he felt liberated to be so adventurous with those tracks was because he was surrounded by people who had suggestions, yes, but who didn't criticize or belittle the work he was doing. If we consider that at least part of the reason SMiLE was shelved was because of nit-picking and confusion from the rest of the band, or how stuff like "Til I Die" or basically all of Adult Child was likewise rejected by them, we know there's a proud history of discouraging his flights of fancy within the group. I don't know, maybe I'm totally off-base here (and I encourage those with far more knowledge about this than me to say as much), but I just don't see PS coming out to sound basically the same but just happening to have different musicians on the tracks.

There are some sort-of factual errors here.

They WERE there for GV sessions, and Mike played the theremin part on stage with much fun.  And of course, they participated, minus Mike, in the tracking session for "That's Not Me" with no problems at all.  Carl and Dennis played on plenty of Smile tracks with apparently no complaints.

Lyrically, there is room for debate, but instrumentally, the boys including Mike never had any complaints.  Also, these guys were used to recording tracks without any idea of what the lyrics were.  Of course it wouldn't sound exactly the same, but the heavy presence of the Beach Boys as musicians on both Today and Summer Days suggests they could have gone on just fine in a similar vein.

[Wirestone]

Well Brian did get 52 or something on the best vocalists on Rolling Stone's list.
I remember reading Carol Kaye argue that Brian losing his permission to use the Wrecking Crew had a hand in their declining popularity and I agree completely. The Beach Boys had world class musicians and that was a complete benefit. Pet Sounds would not have been able to give the Beach Boys their renewed respect if it was played by the Beach Boys. I'm sorry but they just weren't the greatest instrumentalists.

Brian never "lost permission" to use session guys. When he wanted to record with them, he used them. They're on nearly all of his post-Smile BB albums, to greater and lesser extents. (Heck, he even has a wrecking crew guy on Love You!)

More than just one guy...

Steve Douglas on sax was the only one that came to mind. Who am I missing? (I mean, I'd guess some are on Good Time, but that one's old ...)

Migliori, as well.

Gotcha. I think Migliori is on BW88 as well. I know Douglas is on Metal Beach.

[runnersdialzero]

Picture "You Still Believe in Me" with lyrics about cars.

The notion of Mike taking over Smile or Pet Sounds with lyrics about cars or surfing is absurd by that point in time. One need only listen to "Good Vibrations", Smiley Smile, Wild Honey etc. etc. etc. (not to mention most lyrics on Today! and Summer Days) to realize even Mike was kind of over that stuff as a lyricist until the mid 70s when even Brian was on board with the oldies thing (sans "Do It Again", but the whole song aims for that).

Yer point still stands, though. I don't know if it really would have went down like that, as not everyone in the group said they were unsure of the newer material. Don't forget that aside from vocals, the guys do appear on several Smile tracks - Dennis playing drums on "Holidays" or organ on "Good Vibrations", for instance. There's also the fact that Brian had them doing stuff like recording in his swimming pool, recording themselves eating vegetables, laying on the ground making animal noises etc. etc. etc. around the same time. Brian was questioned by Mike and maybe others within the band, but they ultimately trusted him and went along with what he was doing regardless of what he asked. I don't think them playing the basic tracks instead of the Wrecking Crew would have changed that.