Holy Bee returns with latest crackpot theory: SMiLE almost done in Nov 66

[guitarfool2002]

Replying generally but more specific to Holy Bee and Cam: I wouldn't be too hasty in downplaying the sequencing and editing issues related to the available technology and accepted studio working methods of that era. I've laid it out in the past with specific examples, and in a more condensed way above, but ultimately the proof of the impact this lack of available resources and technology had on completing certain key elements of the project can be found in both the tapes and in the words of the participants.

Flash back to the BWPS project, and find several interviews where Brian himself made specific mention of the way Darian with his laptop and common digital sequencing and editing software was able to "audition" the order of these fragments for Brian so he'd hear them almost instantly, in such a way that was simply not possible in 1966-67. What Darian did with Brian in 2003-4 and legions of fanmixers and cut-and-paste artists are doing in 2012 is creating a demo of sorts that has musical and rhythmic flow, where the parts can be copied and pasted to infinity, patched together, and given automatic auditions leading to decisions of what works in sequence and what does not.

Imagine that the power in an off-the-rack Mac laptop we could all own today equals if not surpasses the editing and automated mixing capabilities of "groundbreaking" systems like the SSL flying-fader automated mixers of the early 80's which cost several hundred thousand dollars, and far surpasses the editing capabilities of anything you could do with a razor blade and tape.

A few examples of this which we can hear on the box set and boots:

Which songs do we have "test edits" dating from 66-67? If you hear them, they're sloppy, the levels vary wildly, and you can tell it was a quick job done to audition how the parts would flow together.

Every time Brian wanted to do this, they'd make a safety copy of whatever reference mix they were using, razor blade that, then do the same copy-audition-cut process for the other fragments. You'd then tape them together, more carefully for anything "final", more haphazard for the "test mix" purposes of hearing them together.

Now what if he cut one fragment at Gold Star, and one at Western...and the EQ or levels between the fragments was way off and didn't blend at all. This was a concern with Good Vibrations, one major reason why the editing and mixing there was such a chore and why certain EQ decisions and variations between fragments still bother listeners with trained ears from a purely technical side. Solution?

Once you mixed down in '66, it was set in stone. If you wanted to replicate the mix, you'd either mark the knobs with grease pencil (which would be wiped off eventually) or made detailed notes on the settings. If you made live changes with faders or level settings, mixing on the fly, that mix was gone forever after it was done live. You couldn't replicate it. Automated mixing brought the ability to store, save, and recall such things...digital editing and recording gives anyone with Garage Band the ability to recall those elements as part of the saved files which comprise the song.

So take the two songs where Brian did the most test edits, at least ones we know or can hear: Heroes And Villains, and Vegetables. Is it a coincidence these were the songs paid the most attention in January, February, and April '67? Those are also the two that were mentioned at the time as the "singles" to be released from Smile.

Brian was not satisfied for months on end with Good Vibrations, it cycled through several sequences, edits, and combinations of sections before he snapped his fingers in the studio and said "That's IT!".

The fact that not only were those the songs which needed the most work editing, the songs with the most fragments and small sections recorded and waiting to be sequenced into a viable whole, and the songs which were specifically mentioned as singles, but they were also the most obvious songs in need of major work as December 1966 turned into 1967, in order to "finish" them. Heroes got a great single mix by Chuck Britz, part of the mysterious 2-sided debated single, but ultimately as he had done the previous year with Good Vibrations, Brian was not satisfied with something about it and scrapped it.

I'd say the ability to audition and edit these sequences on the fly as Darian was able to do with Brian in 2003-4 is one technology-related issue that may have played a larger role in the saga than some are crediting. When he had to book hours of studio time to do what Darian could do in his living room, it had to slow up if not impede the process. Considering too that Brian in 1966-67 had dozens of reels of tape with these fragments.

[Roger Ryan]

I don't think anything being discussed on this thread is inconsistent with the idea that Brian got caught up in doing a very experimental album and then began to doubt that work's commercial appeal.

Well, then, in that case let me be the first to oppose that - or oppose that as the overriding reason why the album got scrapped. Of course, if we were to believe that that's the case, then it would therefore follow that he must have thought that Smiley Smile would have had much more of a "commercial appeal" by drawing on many of the same songs but making them weirder.

I really think SMILEY SMILE is just a quickie, like PARTY; an effort to get something in the record bins because of label pressure. In effect, Brian takes the most commercial aspects of the SMiLE material (the fun, pretty stuff) and tries to make a quick "happy" album that fits in with the 1967 emphasis on psychedelic weirdness. Now, I'll admit that "Fall Breaks..." doesn't fit with the theory of just keeping the fun, pretty stuff, but it's notable that there is no "Worms", "Cabin Essence" or "Surf's Up"; the tracks emphasize the comic and sweet, nothing too heavy or profound.

The subsequent releases, WILD HONEY and FRIENDS, regain some of what might have been seen as commercial appeal, but Brian has lost interest in producing a slick product and is apparently content (?) with a "less-is-more" approach.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I really think SMILEY SMILE is just a quickie, like PARTY; an effort to get something in the record bins because of label pressure. In effect, Brian takes the most commercial aspects of the SMiLE material (the fun, pretty stuff) and tries to make a quick "happy" album that fits in with the 1967 emphasis on psychedelic weirdness. Now, I'll admit that "Fall Breaks..." doesn't fit with the theory of just keeping the fun, pretty stuff, but it's notable that there is no "Worms", "Cabin Essence" or "Surf's Up"; the tracks emphasize the comic and sweet, nothing too heavy or profound.

But in fact, it would have been even quicker to put already finished versions of Wonderful, Wind Chimes and even do a rush edit on Vegetables than it would have been to entirely re-record them, as he did. He also could have included Our Prayer at that point and even choose one from Look, Holidays, or Fire as an instrumental. Add Good Vibrations and you've already got 6 songs ready to go. Instead, he chooses to use virtually nothing from what he recorded over the previous months save for Good Vibrations and a bit of Vegetables, record almost from scratch a new album despite tons of material available, and yet at the same time seven out of ten songs (minus GV) that are recorded had either minor to major roles during the Smile period. It seems to me that this is not a case of someone who a: is motivated prominently by the desire to get a record out quickly and b: has been dissatisfied with the Smile-era music.

I would add too that Smile certainly fit more in with 1967 "popular" weirdness than Smiley Smile. Smile had much more in common with, say, Sgt. Pepper than Smiley did.

[Roger Ryan]

I'm not saying that Brian was making a rational decision by recording and releasing SMILEY SMILE. I agree that it was not as commercial as SMiLE nor as in tune with the times as what he had been working on for months. But I think Brian was overwhelmed/disturbed by what SMiLE had become and didn't really want to have anything to do with those tapes. "Good Vibrations" was already released, "Heroes & Villains" barely resembled what it had been during its initial conception and the SMiLE portions of "Vegetables" were recorded so late that I'm not even sure if Brian thought of those sessions as relating to the SMiLE album. Perhaps everything else was done from scratch so he wouldn't have to revisit the SMiLE tapes...or, more simply, there were too many tapes to audition and it was quicker just to re-cut everything at home.

The most logical aspect to this is that by recording anew, the album would not just be a compromised version of SMiLE, which is definitely what it would have seemed like if the SMiLE tracks had been used. The frustratingly illogical aspect is that the damn thing was titled "SMILEY SMILE" which made everyone think it was SMiLE after all!

I maintain that Brian, rightly or wrongly, saw SMILEY SMILE as a quick, fun album that eliminated the darker, heavier (perhaps overly elaborate) aspects of SMiLE which he perceived as being inappropriate for the Beach Boys.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'm not saying that Brian was making a rational decision by recording and releasing SMILEY SMILE. I agree that it was not as commercial as SMiLE nor as in tune with the times as what he had been working on for months. But I think Brian was overwhelmed/disturbed by what SMiLE had become and didn't really want to have anything to do with those tapes. "Good Vibrations" was already released, "Heroes & Villains" barely resembled what it had been during its initial conception and the SMiLE portions of "Vegetables" were recorded so late that I'm not even sure if Brian thought of those sessions as relating to the SMiLE album. Perhaps everything else was done from scratch so he wouldn't have to revisit the SMiLE tapes...or, more simply, there were too many tapes to audition and it was quicker just to re-cut everything at home.

The most logical aspect to this is that by recording anew, the album would not just be a compromised version of SMiLE, which is definitely what it would have seemed like if the SMiLE tracks had been used. The frustratingly illogical aspect is that the damn thing was titled "SMILEY SMILE" which made everyone think it was SMiLE after all!

I maintain that Brian, rightly or wrongly, saw SMILEY SMILE as a quick, fun album that eliminated the darker, heavier (perhaps overly elaborate) aspects of SMiLE which he perceived as being inappropriate for the Beach Boys.

Yeah, I agree with a lot of that though I'm not entirely sure he didn't want to have anything to do with the Smile tapes. He did after all, use part of Vegetables (though, one could say, it was recorded so near the end of the so-called Smile era that he didn't make the association, though, if that's the case, why re-record so much of it?). He didn't seem to have so much of a problem with the songs themselves so I'm not sure what it was about the recordings that bothered him so. My take on it is what I wrote on another thread the other day:

I think that Brian had a difficult time responding to the pressure of making the next "BIG" album and it started to become a bigger pressure as deadlines were missed and there was a real need to put something out ASAP. His choices were either keep going in this direction, to hell with deadlines, pressure from record company to put something out soon; rush (by his standards) out a record he'd been pouring his heart and soul into for months and have it not entirely the way he likes it (which probably seemed like a waste of all that effort); or, just go on and do something else that would require less time, energy and importantly, personal grief. I think he made the final choice in Smiley Smile. Once that came out, with so many Smile songs, there wasn't really much of a point in going back to Smile even if he wanted to.

To me, him being faced with these possibilities makes more sense than he just stopped liking the music that he seemed to be loving and so proud of for months.

[Roger Ryan]

Right, I'm in agreement with that 

SMiLE became a behemoth and it was easier to move on to something else. One must remember that when living through that time period, the success of the band vs. the completion/release of one album could not possibly have seemed as final or irrevocable as we perceive it forty years later.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Gratified to see so many interesting comments on my return!

Roger:

"Aren't some of the vocals missing simply because the backing tracks had not been finished and/or edited together? Weren't lead vocals among the last things that Brian would add to a track before final mixing?"

Quite possibly. If there had been finished backing tracks, would they have been logged and have survived? (This, even as I write it, sounds like the world's stupidest question, but I still want to clarify!)

As it is, we do have backing/chorus vox for CE, CIFOTM, Wonderful, WC (these last two also with leads), DYLW and OMP. Fire may never have been intended for vocals, Vega-Tables has a lead and backing already, Good Vibrations is in the can. Which from that list of tracks in my first post leaves Surf's Up, which was never completed for any kind of dubbing, and H&V, which doesn't even seem to have got a cursory rough edit (though it seems likely there was once an acetate featuring one somewhere).

So 9 of the eleven tracks worked on in Oct-Nov have rough mixes/assemblies and backing vocals, except Surf's Up, which is just abandoned... and the original Heroes, which is not even touched by the Boys until the massive overhaul in January. Surely he wasn't too far away from starting to record some (non-Wilson) leads. So, final edits of the tracks aside, what stopped him?

Considering Brian had only been going since August on the project - and really only from October, when he was clear of GV and Dumb Angel became Smile - we're really only discussing six to eight weeks here. Most of that had been recording furiously; it's not like he'd been living with this particular ambition and subsequent pressure for 45 years back then. As of November, tracks are4 being rough mixed, and backing vocals recorded. And then they suddenly stop.

What is the evidence of the time (I'm assuming Cam may have been referring to the "Wild Honey"-era interview with Brian) to back up the idea that, after only a few joyous and focused weeks preparing the new record, Brian suddenly starts doubting all the almost complete songs he's got on the shelf and wanders off to focus on the newly dismembered Heroes. Or rather - if so, why?

I don't want to go down the path of doubting the veracity of Brian's press statements, in 1968 or 2012 - this is the man himself, after all - but a lot of what was said by various players contradicts other eyewitnesses and even their own previous testimony (especially Brian, frankly). This is the problem, of course, with anecdotal evidence. The dates and recordings that survive tend to suggest that a) the album was more manageable in scope and construction than was our understanding for years and b) through November there is every indication Brian is trying to get the backing tracks together for mixing and lead vocals.

Which seems to just end in December and restart as a whole new thing in January. At the Surf's Up, YAMS and Fire sessions (2-49 Nov) Brian sounds just as energetic, focused and ambitious for the tracks as on the Wind Chimes recording of three months previous - more so, if anything. It's also interesting to note that though the Boys return mid-November, there's very little done with them until mid-December (only Denny's YAMS lead) - and in fact that first group Vocal session is the legendary "Wonderful" (and later that evening "Surf's Up") one that went very badly. (There are very few after that, although they do go in to redub the Worms backing vox.) So almost all of the Boys' vocal contributions were recorded in the initial rush of enthusiasm in October.

By mid-December they - or Brian - weren't having any of it.

That can either be read as a dwindling enthusiasm on Brian's part for the album, or alternately as support for VDP's (one of the saga's few consistent, not to say reliable, witnesses) forty year assertion that "Mike Love delayed the release of Smile by 40 years purely out of a mislaid jealousy". For me, the Brian we hear on the sessions in mid-to-late Nov, just weeks before those isolated and fractious vocal sessions, sounds - to me at least - very little like a man about to junk a record because he doesn't know how it's going to go together or if it'll be very good.

EDIT: Sorry, having re-read the above I make it sound like it's either one or the other options as to why SMiLE stalled. I don't believe that, and obviously there were many factors in play.

[Jim V.]

I know this doesn't really advance the conversation (which I find extremely enlightening), but I was wondering if anybody has made a mix of "Heroes And Villains" which includes both "I'm In Great Shape" and "Barnyard", especially you Holy Bee, since you were discussing it.

I tried to make one myself, with the first verse from the "Early Version Outtake Sections" track up to the fluttertone thing, followed by "I'm In Great Shape", then what is known on the SMiLE box-set as "Intro (Early Version) circa 12/66", which is called out as "part 3" on that track leading me to believe, it was indeed, part 3. And then lastly, "Barnyard". But my editing skills are not great, and I couldn't get anything reasonable out of it.

Hope to hear from one of ya!

[The_Holy_Bee]

Hey James, funnily enough that's precisely what I was working on today. It's... well, you can say - though clearly none of us are Brian, or know what he was planning - one can see why someone felt they needed some changes before it was the lead single.

[LostArt]

I'm not saying that Brian was making a rational decision by recording and releasing SMILEY SMILE. I agree that it was not as commercial as SMiLE nor as in tune with the times as what he had been working on for months. But I think Brian was overwhelmed/disturbed by what SMiLE had become and didn't really want to have anything to do with those tapes. "Good Vibrations" was already released, "Heroes & Villains" barely resembled what it had been during its initial conception and the SMiLE portions of "Vegetables" were recorded so late that I'm not even sure if Brian thought of those sessions as relating to the SMiLE album. Perhaps everything else was done from scratch so he wouldn't have to revisit the SMiLE tapes...or, more simply, there were too many tapes to audition and it was quicker just to re-cut everything at home.

The most logical aspect to this is that by recording anew, the album would not just be a compromised version of SMiLE, which is definitely what it would have seemed like if the SMiLE tracks had been used. The frustratingly illogical aspect is that the damn thing was titled "SMILEY SMILE" which made everyone think it was SMiLE after all!

I maintain that Brian, rightly or wrongly, saw SMILEY SMILE as a quick, fun album that eliminated the darker, heavier (perhaps overly elaborate) aspects of SMiLE which he perceived as being inappropriate for the Beach Boys.

Yeah, I agree with a lot of that though I'm not entirely sure he didn't want to have anything to do with the Smile tapes. He did after all, use part of Vegetables (though, one could say, it was recorded so near the end of the so-called Smile era that he didn't make the association, though, if that's the case, why re-record so much of it?). He didn't seem to have so much of a problem with the songs themselves so I'm not sure what it was about the recordings that bothered him so. My take on it is what I wrote on another thread the other day:

I think that Brian had a difficult time responding to the pressure of making the next "BIG" album and it started to become a bigger pressure as deadlines were missed and there was a real need to put something out ASAP. His choices were either keep going in this direction, to hell with deadlines, pressure from record company to put something out soon; rush (by his standards) out a record he'd been pouring his heart and soul into for months and have it not entirely the way he likes it (which probably seemed like a waste of all that effort); or, just go on and do something else that would require less time, energy and importantly, personal grief. I think he made the final choice in Smiley Smile. Once that came out, with so many Smile songs, there wasn't really much of a point in going back to Smile even if he wanted to.

To me, him being faced with these possibilities makes more sense than he just stopped liking the music that he seemed to be loving and so proud of for months.

We know that Brian got some pressure from at least one Beach Boy over lyrics.  Vosse: "But at that time, Mike and Brian were a little on the outs because Van Dyke was doing all the lyrics - and Mike didn't really think that was where it was at..."  Yes, Mike sang 'over and over', yes the boys sang the parts (well...they sang what we have heard, who knows if there was stuff that they refused to sing and was never recorded?).  

And not many folks mention this, but I think there was also pressure from the Beach Boys over how to perform this material live.  Vosse again: "Then, the guys started getting up tight about the material.  They were worried about how they'd do it in person."  A valid argument.  How would they do the cantina version of Heroes (or whatever the 'great shape/barnyard' version would've been)?  How would they do Cabinessence?  How would they do any song that featured piano (let alone harpsichord) in 1966-67?  With a Farfisa?  A Rhodes?  Where are the guitar parts that Carl and Al would play?  

There may have been pressure concerning musical direction.  Vosse one more time: "Then, tension developed in the studio, because what it came down to was that Brian and Van Dyke had come up with music a little too complex for them, and which they began to resent.  A lot of the arguments that took place were between Brian and Mike Love.  And a lot of people would go off into corners together - the sure sign that a group is in trouble: where you have two over in this half, and two other there at the same time - huddling, and saying: hey, you know, this f*cking thing...There was a lot of that."  I'll also just remind everyone of Peter Reum's claim that there was some kind of big band meeting where things were discussed.  

So, this was a group...a family...that was having some issues.  A group in trouble.  And Brian was the guy in charge of this group.  Brian was the guy who was supporting his family.  I don't want to turn this into a 'we're his f*cking messengers' debate, but Brian was the song writer and the producer of the Beach Boys.  He was in charge.  What was he to do?  Well, here's what he did do.  He rearranges some of the Smile tunes so that the Beach Boys could play the parts.  No more banjo, no more elaborate string arrangements, no more piano or harpsichord.  The Baldwin sounds cool, and you can take that on the road.  He scraps 'over and over the crow cries uncover the cornfield' and 'columnated ruins domino', and instead sings about a little pad in Hawaii, and gets Mike to write some lyrics.  And, perhaps most importantly, he has the guys come into the studio (okay, Brian's house) to play on the record and goof around and act like friends again...you know...like a family.    

[guitarfool2002]

It looks like there is some discussion on what could have happened in December 1966 going into January 1967, and how there was a noticeable shift in direction and attitude which some have mentioned. LostArt has beat me to the punch in a way by referencing the Vosse comments, but what I was going to say is drinking from that same well:

One major issue to consider from nearly every angle except the technology-sequencing challenges would be, without a doubt, Murry Wilson.

Something specific appeared buried within the Vosse "Fusion" piece that was a revelation, at least for me, and after looking closer at other interviews and articles there were traces of it to be found scattered around as well. The Vosse piece was more specific (I'm not able to quote it exactly here without the article in front of me...), but I think in one of the David Anderle interviews he mentions it too.

There was, by those accounts, a blow-up between Brian and Murry during this time. No one offers a specific date or week, so chalk that up to an unknown and go from there, but the point is sometime during this period Brian and Murry had a major falling out.

Vosse frames part of this by describing Murry going around to Brian's circle of friends and badmouthing him, specifically criticizing Good Vibrations, and suggesting to those around him that Brian made a mistake by releasing this single, and suggesting he was losing all his fans by doing it.

To us in 2012, such criticism from Murry does seem petty and foolish considering what a legendary single Good Vibrations has become. If this were December 1966 into January 1967, it could be viewed even worse since Good Vibrations was, at that time, still a top 10 single all over the US having been at #1 for several recent weeks, and the Beach Boys were soon to finish very well in the end-of-year polls which had them topping the Beatles in one infamous case.

But if you put Murry Wilson in a position where he is going behind Brian's back suggesting Brian was somehow "wrong" and was risking the reputation of the band and, yes, "the family", it could be a pretty toxic thing for Brian to hear in the midst of a rush to get an album finished which would be released in the bright afterglow of his #1 single, Good Vibrations.

Add Murry into the mix of what LostArt was citing from Vosse, and his above post suggesting issues with live performance and instrumentation (this was a valid concern which had bitten the touring band in the ass several times during this period...), whatever was said or whatever happened between Brian and Murry has to be considered. If we assume it was during this same time at the end of '66 going into '67, it would line up with a lot of the questions about what happened to change the working conditions around Smile, as it were. because if we take the word of at least two people who were with and around Brian at this time, we know *something* big happened between Brian and Murry, bigger than the usual squabbles.

[Cam Mott]

Craig, I may not be understanding, Brian worked within the limitations of his imagination, ingenuity and the technology of his time. Brian knew the sequence and had the cuts in mind. Regardless how many revisions, for each revision the sequence was already known, the cutting was just a routine, the limitations of mixing tapes from different tapes from different studios was understood by Brian and was even a desired effect in GV, he wanted the "sound" of different studios. Am I missing a point?

General discussion: the Boys had issues, Murry had issues. I still think they are given too much importance. Brian didn't care much about other peoples' concerns over the music. He would listen, he would even try suggestions, but if it didn't serve what he already knew he wanted he just dismissed it/them. We probably give too much credit for group understanding to the impressions of outsiders too but that is all we have sometimes.

I'm not sure of the sources for the concert concerns but I don't think Brian made music to be easy for concerts, he made music and they retro-fitted it to the small group or they even supplemented the small group with extra musicians. They had been rearranging lush songs for the small group concerts for years, I just can't buy that Brian pulled any punches on the singles or albums in deference to eventual live play. It is likely that only GV and H&V, the singles, would have been played in concert and they both were actually adapted for concert at the time and GV was already in small group concert rotation.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Brian didn't care much about other peoples' concerns over the music. He would listen, he would even try suggestions, but if it didn't serve what he already knew he wanted he just dismissed it/them.

Then there are the times that we have on record where he would, at the very least, threaten to dismiss himself because of a lack of cooperation amongst his fellow workers.

And would you say this line of thinking hold true in the case of Brian speeding up Caroline, No?

[Cam Mott]

Brian didn't care much about other peoples' concerns over the music. He would listen, he would even try suggestions, but if it didn't serve what he already knew he wanted he just dismissed it/them.

Then there are the times that we have on record where he would, at the very least, threaten to dismiss himself because of a lack of cooperation amongst his fellow workers.

And would you say this line of thinking hold true in the case of Brian speeding up Caroline, No?

The first an example of getting his way and controlling the group and focusing them on his desire.

The second is one of the example of Brian trying a suggestion and keeping it if it suited his desire.

[guitarfool2002]

Craig, I may not be understanding, Brian worked within the limitations of his imagination, ingenuity and the technology of his time. Brian knew the sequence and had the cuts in mind. Regardless how many revisions, for each revision the sequence was already known, the cutting was just a routine, the limitations of mixing tapes from different tapes from different studios was understood by Brian and was even a desired effect in GV, he wanted the "sound" of different studios. Am I missing a point?

General discussion: the Boys had issues, Murry had issues. I still think they are given too much importance. Brian didn't care much about other peoples' concerns over the music. He would listen, he would even try suggestions, but if it didn't serve what he already knew he wanted he just dismissed it/them. We probably give too much credit for group understanding to the impressions of outsiders too but that is all we have sometimes.

I'm not sure of the sources for the concert concerns but I don't think Brian made music to be easy for concerts, he made music and they retro-fitted it to the small group or they even supplemented the small group with extra musicians. They had been rearranging lush songs for the small group concerts for years, I just can't buy that Brian pulled any punches on the singles or albums in deference to eventual live play. It is likely that only GV and H&V, the singles, would have been played in concert and they both were actually adapted for concert at the time and GV was already in small group concert rotation.

On the first paragraph I disagree, mostly because we know of a handful of Brian's "test edits" specifically for Heroes and less for Vegetables where he was experimenting with the order, sequence, and editing of specific fragments. This is audio proof, all but set in stone, that for these singles Brian had a bag of tape fragments and had not yet finalized an order. I'd suggest if Brian was working from an order all along as he was recording those fragments, it would not be necessary to experiment by moving them around. I don't speak for the rest of Smile, which wasn't as "modular" for individual tracks as Heroes and Vegetables, yet those two tracks where we hear Brian shifting things around were the heavy burden he carried into January 1967 - we need to finish this for the single. That could stall the album indefinitely if he keeps tinkering and revising, and look what happened.

And additional proof of what I originally suggested with editing and technology can be found in any number of interviews around BWPS and how Darian's ability to edit and audition on the fly for Brian was something that didn't exist in 1966-67, and a technology which helped them sequence Smile for the stage. Musical flow is everything - Brian's "test edits" from the 60's were time consuming and a bit on the sloppy side. I spelled out the process on the top of page 2 here...it's a hassle. And it eats up precious studio time.

You can't dismiss Murry as easily as you could dismiss a French Horn player making a suggestion in the studio, or one of Brian's friends, or whatever. I think what haunted Brian and the other Wilsons (I'm really reaching here...) was their always seeking approval from their father who could go out of his way to belittle them even as adults. That very notion causes so many problems within families, strains relationships for entire lifetimes, etc. If someone close you're seeking approval from, either outwardly or inwardly, goes around to your friends criticizing decisions which made the family very wealthy and were ultimately "right", how can that impact be dismissed by saying Brian could just "shake it off"? He couldn't shake it off, in fact I'd say he dealt with it but never got over it entirely.

There are little snippets in LLVS describing cases where the Beach Boys - I believe on a tour of England - had arranged for extra musicians to be hired and perform on stage with them to fill out the sound, as there had been reviews suggesting the live shows didn't sound full enough compared to the records. Then that hiring got bogged down in some musicians' union politics and the band wasn't allowed to play with the extra musicians, and I believe the press again pointed out the lack of fullness on stage versus the records. So this had to be a concern if the band gets criticized by some fans and the press for not sounding like the records, then when they try to hire players at least in England, they're told "no" and get more criticism. I can assume this point was mentioned to Brian by the band if not by Brian himself reading a negative review and having it perhaps change his plans for a future recording...who knows.

And remember, too - the Hawaii project where this stripped-down sound was attempted was ultimately scrapped entirely, including the Heider recreations - nothing was used. The sound was interesting, quirky, but was it good enough for the band's standards? A band which, mind you, had become known in 1966 for the quality of their sound on record?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Brian didn't care much about other peoples' concerns over the music. He would listen, he would even try suggestions, but if it didn't serve what he already knew he wanted he just dismissed it/them.

Then there are the times that we have on record where he would, at the very least, threaten to dismiss himself because of a lack of cooperation amongst his fellow workers.

And would you say this line of thinking hold true in the case of Brian speeding up Caroline, No?

The first an example of getting his way and controlling the group and focusing them on his desire.

The second is one of the example of Brian trying a suggestion and keeping it if it suited his desire.

However you interpret his desire to leave if there wasn't any cooperation, it certainly doesn't show that he "didn't care much about other peoples' concerns over the music." And there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Brian speeding up Caroline, No was "what he already knew he wanted" before Murry told Brian he sounded old.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Glad to see so much reference to the Fusion piece going on here. I know it has its detractors, but I've always felt it a cornerstone piece (far more than Goodbye Surfing... for instance) in understanding SMiLE, the album and the era.

LostArt - intuitively, in psychological terms and according to the evidence we have, your analysis strikes me as right on the button.

Guitarfool:

"On the first paragraph I disagree, mostly because we know of a handful of Brian's "test edits" specifically for Heroes and less for Vegetables where he was experimenting with the order, sequence, and editing of specific fragments. This is audio proof, all but set in stone, that for these singles Brian had a bag of tape fragments and had not yet finalized an order. I'd suggest if Brian was working from an order all along as he was recording those fragments, it would not be necessary to experiment by moving them around. I don't speak for the rest of Smile, which wasn't as "modular" for individual tracks as Heroes and Vegetables, yet those two tracks where we hear Brian shifting things around were the heavy burden he carried into January 1967 - we need to finish this for the single. That could stall the album indefinitely if he keeps tinkering and revising, and look what happened."

Just a quick - non-technological - point to make here. Using the '67 Heroes and Veggies single sessions as a basis for why the album couldn't have been sequenced in November-December '66 is kind of irrelevant. Here we have Brian desperately trying to construct a "hit" out of a "three-section musical comedy" and a 90 second goof; as I tried to demonstrate above, the original SMiLE songs had solid, established structures and, in terms of piecing them together, as Cam said "the cutting was just a routine, the limitations of mixing tapes from different tapes from different studios was understood by Brian."

The point Cam and I were making - as it relates to my original argument that SMiLE could have been out in January if fate hadn't intervened - is that "the rest of Smile", recorded during the Smile sessions proper, didn't suffer the same editing stresses and approach as the two '67 single attempts - they were made with different goals and recorded according to a very different process - so they can't really be employed to back up a '66 sequencing issue.

[guitarfool2002]

Glad to see so much reference to the Fusion piece going on here. I know it has its detractors, but I've always felt it a cornerstone piece (far more than Goodbye Surfing... for instance) in understanding SMiLE, the album and the era.

LostArt - intuitively, in psychological terms and according to the evidence we have, your analysis strikes me as right on the button.

Guitarfool:

"On the first paragraph I disagree, mostly because we know of a handful of Brian's "test edits" specifically for Heroes and less for Vegetables where he was experimenting with the order, sequence, and editing of specific fragments. This is audio proof, all but set in stone, that for these singles Brian had a bag of tape fragments and had not yet finalized an order. I'd suggest if Brian was working from an order all along as he was recording those fragments, it would not be necessary to experiment by moving them around. I don't speak for the rest of Smile, which wasn't as "modular" for individual tracks as Heroes and Vegetables, yet those two tracks where we hear Brian shifting things around were the heavy burden he carried into January 1967 - we need to finish this for the single. That could stall the album indefinitely if he keeps tinkering and revising, and look what happened."

Just a quick - non-technological - point to make here. Using the '67 Heroes and Veggies single sessions as a basis for why the album couldn't have been sequenced in November-December '66 is kind of irrelevant. Here we have Brian desperately trying to construct a "hit" out of a "three-section musical comedy" and a 90 second goof; as I tried to demonstrate above, the original SMiLE songs had solid, established structures and, in terms of piecing them together, as Cam said "the cutting was just a routine, the limitations of mixing tapes from different tapes from different studios was understood by Brian."

The point Cam and I were making - as it relates to my original argument that SMiLE could have been out in January if fate hadn't intervened - is that "the rest of Smile", recorded during the Smile sessions proper, didn't suffer the same editing stresses and approach as the two '67 single attempts - they were made with different goals and recorded according to a very different process - so they can't really be employed to back up a '66 sequencing issue.

First, I think LostArt's points would be even more right-on-the-button if you add in the Murry Wilson influence. Take all of it together, especially with the inside information from the Vosse piece, and it's one important piece of the puzzle.

Second, the point you're missing entirely, both Holy Bee and Cam, is that without Heroes And Villains and Vegetables, there is no Smile album, period, end of story. Not only were these singles, but they were also two specific tracks on the Smile tracklist and mentioned repeatedly in period interviews by various band members and associates, so fans had some inkling that these tracks would be showing up.

If you're trying to call what I said "irrelevant", first that's a bunch of nonsense in light of everything I wrote to back it up getting as specific as describing the process, and second you're not seeing the realities of both how Brian Wilson worked in 1966 or how a band and label put together an album of songs through months of pre-production. If the thesis of this thread is that Smile could have been out in January '67 and you have *direct, crystal-clear evidence* that two of the higher-profile songs slated to be on Smile and were intended to be singles did not exist at that point beyond early versions and rough mixes, the main theory falls apart because the facts, surviving recordings, and the actual session dates don't back it up.

If you have many of the so-called "innovative" production techniques and new sounds appearing on the two songs that only existed in raw forms by January 1967 and which Brian would spend weeks in early '67 trying to finish or at least put together, and the theory is proposed that Smile could have been out by January, what would Smile have been without Heroes, all the bits related to Heroes, and Vegetables? The blunt answer is this: An album closer to the sounds of Pet Sounds with more arcane lyrics. If you remove Heroes and Vegetables from the album, as they were simply *not finished*, *not sequenced*, and not ready to go even by the end of January '67, all of the sonic innovations which were being hyped at the time, including song structure "pioneered" by Brian on Good Vibrations, are stripped away. The next closest thing on the album was "Cabinessence", and that had no lead vocal until 1968!

If you are missing two, possibly three main components of an upcoming album (not filler tracks), you cannot sequence or master that album until they're finished, mixed, and handed in.

I'm not wanting to light any fires here, but "irrelevant" didn't strike the right chord with me, in light of, and I say this with all due respect, you and Cam having solid facts laid out about what did happen, seeing evidence of what was and wasn't possible to make it happen, and yet you're trying to make these points or dispute others based on what could or should have happened in theory or fantasy.

[Paul J B]

I think your "crackpot theory" makes a lot of sense Bee. I have been baffled since buying the tss boxset as to why in hell something this great was scraped by Brian. Many of the points you have raised have been crossing through my mind for months. None of the least being the album covers and song lists being printed. I have always thought that was huge. Something has always felt odd to me about the theory that Brian was nowhere close to getting the album together due to sequencing and editing all of the "bits" and such. Even though I sometimes feel that is the correct theory myself, it really does not add up.  And by no means am I a smile expert, but the bulk of your thesis is hard to argue against. Nice work!

[guitarfool2002]

So the factual evidence in terms of two prominent songs from the album remaining unfinished three months into 1967 should be thrown out the window in favor of a theory?

It's everyone's choice to listen to any theory but trying to accept it as fact is too much of a stretch: If the actual hard facts are available for everyone to see, read, and hear, and they dispute elements of the thesis behind the theory, I guess we should throw the facts out the window in favor of fantasy.

If someone can show me a final mix of Heroes, a final mix of Vegetables, a final mix of Cabinessence, and final mixes of the other songs lacking vocals which existed by January 1967, the theory wins out over fact. Until then, it's fantasy to suggest Brian had completed more than we know he actually did.

The ultimate fact is that Brian had several deadlines which he failed to meet, and despite having a closet full of Smile tapes needing this or that by 1967, if you assume that meant it was "near completion" then you're just not clear on the process of making an album.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Hey Guitarfool, first of all apologies for the use of "irrelevant". Even at the time it wasn't quite what I meant, but I couldn't put my finger on the right word. I've found your posts extremely interesting - and relevant! - so sorry if I give the impression of being dismissive.

There does seem to be a real difference of understanding between yourself and Cam & I, and I'm not sure if it's possible to resolve it. But one thing jumped out in your second-to-last post:

"Second, the point you're missing entirely, both Holy Bee and Cam, is that without Heroes And Villains and Vegetables, there is no Smile album, period, end of story."

First of all, that's the kind of statement that needs to be quantified. Heroes maybe. Vega-Tables didn't become a big deal until '67 - it might well have just been a chunk of The Elements at the time my post centres on. No SMiLE as we know it today, yes. The only hard '66 evidence that there "[was] no Smile album" in 1966 without those tracks is if one is being scrupulously faithful to the Capitol memo - unlike, say, Brian Wilson in 2004. But let's assume that that album as conceived in October does include those songs:

Because of course it did, as they were tracked. They were just in different versions.  The whole idea there wouldn't have been those songs on the album without the '67 sessions is contradicted by a significant number of facts; for instance, that there was a structural demo of H&V played for Humble Harv in '67; all three sections featured in that demo had their backing tracks recorded in mid-October; and most importantly that we very likely have a finished Vega-Tables as it was originally conceived.

Would those versions have made good singles? Probably not, which is discussed at length above. But for all we know, the tracks for both had been recorded; and Heroes was waiting - once again - on an edit and vocal dubs.

The other thing is that your original post emphasised quite heavily the limitations of the available technology, and how that would have made it difficult for Brian to sequence the record. This was partially in refutation of my assertion that basically the album fell apart when it came time to record the December leads. I'm not trying to be challenging, but I haven't seen a response from you to Cam's observation that "the cutting was just a routine, the limitations of mixing tapes from different tapes from different studios was understood by Brian."

Because if those things aren't really an issue, and we accept that there are at least two very different conceptions of H&V and Veggies ('66 and '67 versions), then once again - here we have, as December 1966 begins, ten (and a bit of Surf's Up) structured and discrete songs waiting for final edits, vocal dubs and being arranged into a satisfying order.

[soniclovenoize]

I'm mostly through page one of this thread, this is great reading!

Wow, Holy_Bee, great essay, you're reiterating lots of things I believed anyways...  Did you used to post on the old smileshop boards like ten years ago?  Your name rings a bell... 

Say Holy_Bee, I was wondering, about a month ago I made a SMiLE mix that was trying to stay to a '67 mix as close as possible (yeah get in line, I know), but I feel it echoed a lot of what you are saying.  I was wondering if you'd give it a listen and give me some of your thoughts?  It can be found in this thread... 
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,12309.0.html

[The_Holy_Bee]

Be glad to Soniclovenoize! Pleased you're enjoying the thread.

Yeah, I did, I think, though not very much - I was a bit in awe of people like Cam and the Jo(h)ns! I did do more in the lead-up to BWPS. Incredibly exciting times!

[Cam Mott]

I didn't mean to imply anything was irrelevant. Maybe I don't understand but to me the cutting of the tape doesn't seem like something that would have been extraordinary. Brian recorded with a butt edit in mind. It was the current state of the tech and the norm but I may not know what I'm talking about or missing the point.

I understand that the singles are important to the album. Still since the album is more than the singles it can still be true that most/much of the album was "finished". I would say that probably all of the album [including the singles] was conceived, Vosse felt so too. In the case of the singles, in particular H&V, they seem to have been "fully conceived" and/or executed a few times just as GV had been done. The period of the proposed Vt single is iffy as being during the "true" SMiLE period to me but that is just me. It seems to me that there were at least a couple of "conceived"/"finished" versions of the Vt single. Something like GV had been. To me, just like GV, he does not seem to have a problem not knowing what he wanted or how he wanted or not being able to do what he wanted but instead kept conceiving something he felt was better. Time does not seem to be something that bothered Brian either as he ignored any deadlines and was telling the press it took as long as it took.

Interesting question about the test edits. Now that we have C-man's excellent sessionography, what are the test edits and what bits do they contain and what was the intended sequence identified for the bits on the records/slates at the time of their recording. I'm assuming that the tests are Brian and SMiLE era and not left off the box because they are Carl/Desper edits or something.

To me Brian's threat to leave during that vocal recording doesn't amount to anything but Brian's group control. He is not threatening to cave in to anybody or give in or change anything or drop anything he plans. He is trying to focus the group on fixing something he wants fixed. Also on Caroline No, Brian doesn't change or add or drop anything really, he makes a tweak from a suggestion and decides to keep it just like suggestions on how to tweak the playing of a passage from a French Horn player etc.. He's not giving in or giving up anything he had planned. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong.

[guitarfool2002]

Hey Guitarfool, first of all apologies for the use of "irrelevant". Even at the time it wasn't quite what I meant, but I couldn't put my finger on the right word. I've found your posts extremely interesting - and relevant! - so sorry if I give the impression of being dismissive.

There does seem to be a real difference of understanding between yourself and Cam & I, and I'm not sure if it's possible to resolve it. But one thing jumped out in your second-to-last post:

"Second, the point you're missing entirely, both Holy Bee and Cam, is that without Heroes And Villains and Vegetables, there is no Smile album, period, end of story."

First of all, that's the kind of statement that needs to be quantified. Heroes maybe. Vega-Tables didn't become a big deal until '67 - it might well have just been a chunk of The Elements at the time my post centres on. No SMiLE as we know it today, yes. The only hard '66 evidence that there "[was] no Smile album" in 1966 without those tracks is if one is being scrupulously faithful to the Capitol memo - unlike, say, Brian Wilson in 2004. But let's assume that that album as conceived in October does include those songs:

Because of course it did, as they were tracked. They were just in different versions.  The whole idea there wouldn't have been those songs on the album without the '67 sessions is contradicted by a significant number of facts; for instance, that there was a structural demo of H&V played for Humble Harv in '67; all three sections featured in that demo had their backing tracks recorded in mid-October; and most importantly that we very likely have a finished Vega-Tables as it was originally conceived.

Would those versions have made good singles? Probably not, which is discussed at length above. But for all we know, the tracks for both had been recorded; and Heroes was waiting - once again - on an edit and vocal dubs.

The other thing is that your original post emphasised quite heavily the limitations of the available technology, and how that would have made it difficult for Brian to sequence the record. This was partially in refutation of my assertion that basically the album fell apart when it came time to record the December leads. I'm not trying to be challenging, but I haven't seen a response from you to Cam's observation that "the cutting was just a routine, the limitations of mixing tapes from different tapes from different studios was understood by Brian."

Because if those things aren't really an issue, and we accept that there are at least two very different conceptions of H&V and Veggies ('66 and '67 versions), then once again - here we have, as December 1966 begins, ten (and a bit of Surf's Up) structured and discrete songs waiting for final edits, vocal dubs and being arranged into a satisfying order.

It's all taken in stride with the discussion!  It just seems like, to me at least, the additional resources of the Smile box including being able to have a list and a disc of well over a dozen individual Heroes fragments...understanding this song/composition was to be a centerpiece of the Smile project...would serve to disprove the theories about Smile being near completion by a certain month. We hear amazing music,incredible pieces, but ultimately Brian and his musical ideas related to some magical "Heroes" theme had spun out of control. It would be like inviting someone over for dinner and buying 14 different main courses to put on the table at the same time...good food, sure, but not what you'd do for a dinner for two event. You couldn't eat that much food...Brian and his Heroes theme may have overtaken the album as a whole as January 1967 progressed.

Maybe posting a list here of all Heroes fragments and session dates related to Heroes in any way would show visually what I'm trying to say.

The point about Heroes and Vegetables existing as demos in Fall '66...I say yes, worth noting, if this were the Stones or the Dave Clark 5 or any other band. But look at the example of Good Vibrations and Brian's working method on that one. We had what appeared to be a full version waiting for vocals in the vault before Pet Sounds was released. Assume the single never came out, fall '66: Does that mean GV could have gone on Pet Sounds with added vocals? Did that Feb. 66 studio version give any indication of what the single would be or sound like when Brian was finished with it in fall '66? Yes it was a "demo", yes it was in the tape vaults, so would that point mean anything if the GV single had not appeared in fall '66 and we were looking back on it as we are with Heroes and Vegetables? Brian tinkered it to near-death, at times giving up on it only to be coaxed back by Anderle among others. Only in this case, his tinkering led to a brilliant release. In the case of Heroes, it did not, despite having a version in the vaults for several months.

As far as Cam's earlier comments on the editing and cutting, it was routine to edit. It was not routine to do more than a few test edits where you'd take perhaps 6 reels of tape and try different sequences and orders. Or, it was not routine to have a song or perhaps an album medley of songs where the order was undefined by design, if we believe the notion of "modular songwriting" and modular recording. It was new ground, broken by Good Vibrations. How long did that single take again? Has anyone investigated how long it took to reach the editing block where Brian knew exactly when and where to cut GV? How many test edits were done? Were different sequences tried and scrapped?

Heroes and the fragments, again if they are modular, were recorded in similar or relative keys so they'd "fit" together. So how would you try different orders so you could hear them? Refer back to the process I described...each fragment would have to be given a safety copy, then cut back together. Do this with however many Heroes fragments there were at a given time. It's a pain in the ass with tape as it was in the 60's. With modular recording you have to hear the order, I'd say, to determine if it "flows" with the overall song structure once you do piece something together.

Hence, the test edits. And they sound hastily done and sloppy. These are vintage Brian...as far as I know. Please correct if the test edits date from a later era.

For BWPS, a laptop enabled them to collect all those fragments and pieces in one place, put any fragment, any track, any medley in any order and audition them immediately. If it were not important to the design of the Smile project, that aspect perhaps would not have been specifically mentioned in interviews surrounding the making of BWPS.