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Author Topic: What went wrong after Holland?  (Read 13492 times)
buddhahat
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« on: March 05, 2012, 03:39:54 AM »

Listening to Holland and the In Concert LP the other day, it struck me that, with the inclusion of The Flame members, The Beach Boys had really created a cohesive 'new' image for themselves at this point. Holland strikes me as a very unified record in feel and quality of the tracks and a more mature album (with the exception of Mt Vernon, which is fun, but I can understand why it was releagted to an EP). At that point in the mid 70s the future looks rosy for the group as an artistically credible and relevant (as much as any ageing hippies could be) band, imo.

So it makes me wonder what exactly derailed this incarnation of the band. I've never been great at retaining the historical stuff (cue flaming from AGD) - was it something to do with the renewed interest in their early surf & cars songs that made 15 Big Ones a more viable next album than something more in the Holland mould? Inter band politics? Is Carl predominately in control of the direction mid 70s? Much that I prefer Love You to both Holland and POB, those albums seem hipper for the 70s market, so why did Carl & Dennis not have more sway with the creative direction of the group? POB seems a much more worthy follow up and a great signpost of how the BB could have matured in the late 70s as a respectable rock group, yet things seemed to move further & further in the 15 Big Ones direction.
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hypehat
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« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2012, 04:19:14 AM »

They lost Jack Rieley after Holland for one, who was instrumental in the post-Sunflower sound. With Rieley out of the picture Carl seemed much less inclined to write, too, which leaves only Dennis, bearing in mind Blondie and Ricky had quit by this point. The adventurous bloc in the Beach Boys had very suddenly diminished to two people. 

According to AGD's site, the Caribou sessions consisted of,
Battle Hymn Of the Republic (BW production) - Good Timin'(written by Bri and Carl) - California Feelin' (Brian) - Don't Let Me Go (?) - You're Riding High On The Music (Think this is Brian?) - Ding Dang (BW) - Our Life, Our Love, Our Land (?) - Lucy Jones (Brian)

The definitely tried to push forward in the studio, but with Brian at the helm. The Caribou sessions in 1974 were a bit disastrous from what little evidence survives - if Brian comes in and he only wants to work on Ding Dang and The Battle Hymn of The Republic, well, that would change the game. The sessions show a strong BW songwriting presence - but we also know the '74 California Feeling recording isn't exactly serious, and not much apart from Good Timin' (the track on the released version is from these sessions) was deemed usable. Wasn't River Song also recorded at these sessions (the early mix we have?) 

You could reason they were attempting 'Brian's Back' a year early without the publicity machine - trying to get him back into the studio and produce an album of mostly his stuff. But that doesn't explain why they felt the need to do that. Maybe they were concerned and thought getting him back to work would make him healthier? Maybe Reprise, or Guerico (they were thinking about moving to CBS, right, something which only Dennis managed) wanted him in.

You also have to realise that, well, you got Brian in the studio and he churns out 15 Big Ones with little care or process, and that's what he wanted to do. For all of the group's ideas of what Brian might do, he went and did that.

Also, the interest for the early stuff never abated - Listening to live boots from the early 70's and sometimes the crowds are massive sh*ts about it. The oft-heard 'You wanna hear an oldie?' also never fails to get a cheer. Endless Summer made it much worse, too. I think I have also heard tell (my memory is a little futzy too!) that Carl and Dennis also wanted to go back to oldies setlists, as they were sick of fighting crowds. Not sure of the veracity of that.

Sorry for the messy post, hope it clears up some things.
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2012, 04:24:27 AM »

I've never been great at retaining the historical stuff (cue flaming from AGD)

People like me do what we do so people like you don't have to. It's a dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it.  Old Man

As for what went wrong after Holland, the answer is contained in two words: Endless Summer.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 04:26:34 AM by Andrew G. Doe » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2012, 04:34:33 AM »

According to Brian in 1974, they also worked on "It's Ok" + of course "Child Of Winter".

"Good Timin'", "It's Ok", "California Feelin'", good stuff if you ask me.
and they did "Shortnin' Bread", "Rolling Up To Heaven".
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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2012, 04:45:58 AM »

Murry's death too.
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MBE
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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2012, 05:01:24 AM »

I would say after Murry died Brian was never close to being the same. Neither were Carl or Dennis to a lesser degree. It seems to me that after "Holland" you get Brian really going into permanent decline. Ricky and Blondie were gone and they had added something cool to the group.  Dennis began drinking more (after a period of sobriety in early '75) etc The BIG thing though to me is the end of Brian and Dennis as clear singers. Not complete loss mind you (and Dennis handled the change a lot more professionally than Brian) but you never had the same textures again. Endless Summer did lead them in the wrong direction but I would say that at least to the end of the Beacago tour they had a great and varied show that was played well. After the summer of 75 though its all down hill.
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buddhahat
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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2012, 05:38:42 AM »


You also have to realise that, well, you got Brian in the studio and he churns out 15 Big Ones with little care or process, and that's what he wanted to do. For all of the group's ideas of what Brian might do, he went and did that.



Thanks for the info - some good points there.

I'm inclined to agree, too much faith in Brian may have led them astray at this point, ironically.

It strikes me that Dennis, Carl and the Flame members were kind of in similar territory creatively. A shame also that Dennis couldn't have been given more control over the direction the band took as POB clearly shows he had the vision to create great and cohesive music. When I listen to the tracks from POB that could have easily been BB songs such as River Song, and title track, and some other finer moments from Surf's Up & Holland it really surprises me that they took such a U Turn with 15 Big Ones, but I guess The Beach Boys and unfulfilled potential go hand in hand and is what makes the group so compelling to discuss!
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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2012, 05:59:05 AM »



Here's an interview with Carl from februari 1972, taken in Holland. He talks about a more serious, 'real' image of the group. (in line with Jack Riley's views) I guess it might be interesting, it's in dutch, but the answers are all english:

http://weblogs.vpro.nl/radioarchief/2012/02/16/de-beach-boys/

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« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2012, 07:05:25 AM »

I can understand that they just gave up. Everything they touched used to turn to gold and after Good Vibrations that just stopped. They kept being creative, kept making good music, kept trying to do new things, but the public just didn't care anymore and everything they did (at least by their old standards) flopped. Looking back I even think it's commendable that they didn't give up sooner.
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Zack
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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2012, 07:15:07 AM »

Well, Endless Summer sure turned to gold so the pressure was off financially.  To paraphrase Ray Davies, it was was also creatively easier to give the people what they want and turn into an oldies band, which that co-billed tour with Chicago did to them.
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« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2012, 07:18:04 AM »

Well, Endless Summer sure turned to gold so the pressure was off financially.  To paraphrase Ray Davies, it was was also creatively easier to give the people what they want and turn into an oldies band, which that co-billed tour with Chicago did to them.
Actually, the change started in 1974. A year before Beachago Tour.
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The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
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« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2012, 07:30:59 AM »

Two important events happened:
- Endless Summer
- Brian Wilson's return

By 1973-74 The Beach Boys were becoming hip again, their live performances at universities shows how popular they were with young audiences and as a result Holland and In Concert charted very high, though not as they used to in 63-66.

The clear mistake was that they let Mike's brother (or cousin?) have some important role, and Blondie fell out with it so Blondie and Ricky disappeared. However this didn't mean the end. Endless Summer gave them their popularity back, but not the one they were seeking. It was at this point Carl made the mistake of not extrapolating on Holland and instead let Brian back into the band.

Brian was in a bad state by 1974 and he'd lost all contact with what music was 'hip', he was mainly into oldies and as such should never have been given a leading role in the group. By letting Brian back in, it counter-weighed Carl and Dennis, and led to the return of Mike Love.

They should've kept Brian's involvement at a minimum and kept producing rock records. Dennis and Carl would've certainly been able to create decent enough material.

But I still dig Love You / AdultChild so w/e-----  LOL
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Jim V.
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« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2012, 07:34:14 AM »

I would say after Murry died Brian was never close to being the same. Neither were Carl or Dennis to a lesser degree. It seems to me that after "Holland" you get Brian really going into permanent decline. Ricky and Blondie were gone and they had added something cool to the group.  Dennis began drinking more (after a period of sobriety in early '75) etc The BIG thing though to me is the end of Brian and Dennis as clear singers. Not complete loss mind you (and Dennis handled the change a lot more professionally than Brian) but you never had the same textures again. Endless Summer did lead them in the wrong direction but I would say that at least to the end of the Beacago tour they had a great and varied show that was played well. After the summer of 75 though its all down hill.

I gotta say that losing the "classic Brian vocal" factor definitely hurt the band. And Mike Love himself has said it a few times. It is no coincidence that two of their biggest post 1975 hits (besides "Kokomo") are "Good Timin'" and "Getcha Back". Both songs have that classic (and classy) "Brian Wilson" sound (even though Brian didn't sing on "Good Timin'" and he didn't write "Getcha Back"). And I'm not gonna lie, as good as some of the post Holland stuff is, the lack of Brian singing at his 100 percent best definitely hurts the way I look at the material, regardless of how good it is, especially Love You and Brian Wilson.
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« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2012, 07:39:14 AM »

Remember too, Carl and the rest of the band must have been under constant enormous pressure from Warner's to get output from Brian. The whole contract was geared around Brian writing the majority of the songs. As seen with the Adult Child material, Brian was still quite capable of writing good music. I think the biggest error occurred when they decided to go the oldies route to get Brian acclimated to studio producing again.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 07:40:33 AM by drbeachboy » Logged

The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
MBE
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« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2012, 03:12:37 AM »


You also have to realise that, well, you got Brian in the studio and he churns out 15 Big Ones with little care or process, and that's what he wanted to do. For all of the group's ideas of what Brian might do, he went and did that.



Thanks for the info - some good points there.

I'm inclined to agree, too much faith in Brian may have led them astray at this point, ironically.

It strikes me that Dennis, Carl and the Flame members were kind of in similar territory creatively. A shame also that Dennis couldn't have been given more control over the direction the band took as POB clearly shows he had the vision to create great and cohesive music. When I listen to the tracks from POB that could have easily been BB songs such as River Song, and title track, and some other finer moments from Surf's Up & Holland it really surprises me that they took such a U Turn with 15 Big Ones, but I guess The Beach Boys and unfulfilled potential go hand in hand and is what makes the group so compelling to discuss!
Had Dennis cleaned up to some extent or not gotton worse over the years I bet he would have taken control. There is another issue though. Jon Stebbins and I have talked a while back about how the Manson thing cost Dennis any sort of real respect by the band as far as him leading things. He's writen about that too from what I recall.
It was too much faith in Brian, I feel he wasn't ready in 1976 though some of the stuff he did is interesting. Some of the Adult Child material shows he was getting there, but he shouldn't have put in full control. He didn't need it or want it by then.
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MBE
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« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2012, 03:13:31 AM »

Well, Endless Summer sure turned to gold so the pressure was off financially.  To paraphrase Ray Davies, it was was also creatively easier to give the people what they want and turn into an oldies band, which that co-billed tour with Chicago did to them.
Actually, the change started in 1974. A year before Beachago Tour.
True but they were doing the songs justice in 1974-75 in a way they never quite managed again.
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MBE
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« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2012, 03:18:14 AM »

I would say after Murry died Brian was never close to being the same. Neither were Carl or Dennis to a lesser degree. It seems to me that after "Holland" you get Brian really going into permanent decline. Ricky and Blondie were gone and they had added something cool to the group.  Dennis began drinking more (after a period of sobriety in early '75) etc The BIG thing though to me is the end of Brian and Dennis as clear singers. Not complete loss mind you (and Dennis handled the change a lot more professionally than Brian) but you never had the same textures again. Endless Summer did lead them in the wrong direction but I would say that at least to the end of the Beacago tour they had a great and varied show that was played well. After the summer of 75 though its all down hill.

I gotta say that losing the "classic Brian vocal" factor definitely hurt the band. And Mike Love himself has said it a few times. It is no coincidence that two of their biggest post 1975 hits (besides "Kokomo") are "Good Timin'" and "Getcha Back". Both songs have that classic (and classy) "Brian Wilson" sound (even though Brian didn't sing on "Good Timin'" and he didn't write "Getcha Back"). And I'm not gonna lie, as good as some of the post Holland stuff is, the lack of Brian singing at his 100 percent best definitely hurts the way I look at the material, regardless of how good it is, especially Love You and Brian Wilson.
Yeah those two really needed better vocals and maybe a rewrite. Brian's voice was very decent at times later on (MIU, TLOS, BWPS), but he had an outstanding one of a kind voice before 1975 that nobody has ever replaced.
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« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2012, 03:37:05 AM »

According to to Gaines H&V, Sail on sailor was the first single to receive a big push from the label since Add some music. SOS failed in the charts and with a failure like I guess everything was up in the air....and how ironic is it that 1 or 2 years later Rock and Roll music reaches no.5? I mean nobody would argue that RNR is better song that SOS right?
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« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2012, 06:49:02 AM »

Well, Endless Summer sure turned to gold so the pressure was off financially.  To paraphrase Ray Davies, it was was also creatively easier to give the people what they want and turn into an oldies band, which that co-billed tour with Chicago did to them.
Actually, the change started in 1974. A year before Beachago Tour.
True but they were doing the songs justice in 1974-75 in a way they never quite managed again.
You are correct, but was just letting Zack know that the oldies started taking precedence in the shows starting in 1974. I will say though, that yes, most times they still did justice to the songs, but at some of those outdoor concerts they could get quite sloppy at times. I was graced to attend an outdoor show in Phoenix, AZ with both Dennis and Ricky on double drum sets. While it was hard to tell sitting in the audience whether they sang very well or not, watching those two pound the skins, you could feel the power throughout the show. It was a rare and fantastic experience.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 06:51:08 AM by drbeachboy » Logged

The Brianista Prayer

Oh Brian
Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
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« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2012, 07:48:04 AM »

According to to Gaines H&V, Sail on sailor was the first single to receive a big push from the label since Add some music. SOS failed in the charts and with a failure like I guess everything was up in the air....and how ironic is it that 1 or 2 years later Rock and Roll music reaches no.5? I mean nobody would argue that RNR is better song that SOS right?
No right or wrong here-strictly opinion, but RARM, which is a great song, was dreadfully reimagined by the group. SOS is a rock solid song that deserved a cosiderably better chart position than RARM.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2012, 08:17:32 AM »

They went right after Holland IMO, With "Love You"  Grin
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« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2012, 08:47:31 AM »

Wow this thread is really confusing. Everyone's saying Brian was back by 1974. Which makes sense i guess. But I thought that the off period between 1973-1976 was because Brian was in bed. So was I wrong? I mean really the only other time it could've been was during the 20/20 sessions. Or did it even happen? Was that all a myth?
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« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2012, 08:58:20 AM »

Blown out of proportion - it's a good story, right? Brian did go a bit recluse, but he was still writing and singing with the band. He just didn't put in the same hours as the rest of them, especially after Sunflower, which he's all over. What Brian did do was just withdraw from the sessions at the home studio to a certain extent. Not entirely, but the band pulled the weight on CATP (where he has a heavy songwriting presence) and especially Holland. He seems to have preferred doing Mt Vernon then working with the group (For instance, Brian literally phoned in his contribution to the Sail On Sailor session - telling Blondie how to play the guitar, and that's it)

The off-period you describe was mostly filled with heavy touring by the group, heavy partying and little recording by Brian (it's about this time when he starts taking cocaine in SERIOUS amounts iirc) and attempts to do new songs at James Guerico's, of CBS Records, Caribou Studios, which from what we have evidence of, are mostly Brian compositions that he didn't put much effort into and the legendary Battle Hymn of The Republic.
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« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2012, 10:30:09 AM »

I've never been great at retaining the historical stuff (cue flaming from AGD)

People like me do what we do so people like you don't have to. It's a dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it.  Old Man

As for what went wrong after Holland, the answer is contained in two words: Endless Summer.

Yep.

It seems after Endless Summer, it became pretty clear that the group and the label were not really interested in new Beach Boys music unless Brian was heavily involved.
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« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2012, 10:39:57 AM »

At some point during 15 Big Ones Carl and Dennis must have turned to each other and said "This just isn't working". And I can only guess the reason they didn't tackle the problem was for fear of upsetting a still very delicate Brian. That, or label pressure to have product "produced by Brian Wilson" no matter what.
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