What's VDP's problem?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

words are an expression of feelings

or can be used to express feelings

Both of those are true. And yet that doesn't make "feelings" words and consequently doesn't change the fact that I never said that Mike Love was in no position to have negative feelings nor did I talk about his rights.

[roll plymouth rock]

Man some people are really bringing this board downhill these days. Grown men bitching like they are in a soap opera. Grow up guys and lets keep this discussion board a bit more civilized

[Chocolate Shake Man]

what fantasy world are you in where words and feelings have nothing to do with each other?

You are really good at making up a lot of sh*t aren't you?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Rocknroll (who's posts I love),

That's splitting hairs.

Of course it means basically the same damn thing: whether you use the words "words" or "feelings"

You said Mike is in no position to have a negative word about VDP! Feelings motivate words. So, please explain.

Soap Opera?

R&R, I know about you and my wife, and I'm OK with it...... I think.

[Wirestone]

How many times has Mike said that he loved the music Brian was making, but hated the lyrics, all the drugs, and the hanger-ons? That's essentially Mike giving VDP the finger over and over again in interviews, just discreetly.  And Mike did that time and time again during the promotion of the release of Smile, while Brian ignored it and talked about how the boys sang like angels, instead.

Yes. Exactly. Mike even says, in the boxed set notes, that he feels the lyrics were taking the group in a bad direction. How is VDP supposed to take that, anyway? It's not like the lyrics magically appeared from somewhere. They were the creation of one man, arguably the only collaborator to match Brian's genius.

Now, I don't think Mike is a heel to say that. He's within his rights, and I actually applauded him at the time for sticking to his guns. But words have consequences. And if you're going to poke and prod Van Dyke's work for decades, you have to assume that he will answer back.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Man some people are really bringing this board downhill these days. Grown men bitching like they are in a soap opera. Grow up guys and lets keep this discussion board a bit more civilized

Amen.

And for the record, I'm waiting for someone to translate VDP's rambling to English. Some people never should have been introduced to a thesaurus....

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Clang Of The Yankee Reaper!

Someone needs to ask VDP about that album!

I've always found it absolutely fascinating!

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Rocknroll (who's posts I love),

That's splitting hairs.

Of course it means basically the same damn thing: whether you use the words "words" or "feelings"

You said Mike is in no position to have a negative word about VDP! Feelings motivate words. So, please explain.

OK - first, thanks for the compliment  

Let's not get semanticky here but I really don't think I am splitting hairs. Yes, feelings can motivate words, though as someone who studies these things, words aren't only motivated by feeling. In fact, one could easily say that society motivates words more than feelings - they prescribe what can and can't be said, what is acceptable and what isn't, and so on. But more strongly, even while sometimes some feelings motivate some words, ultimately feelings aren't words and I simply wasn't commenting on Mike Love's feelings. If I said he was in no position to have feelings, I would be making a comment about his psychological makeup (or, maybe, his intergalactic species) more than anything else. As it stands, I am saying that he is in no position to have said a negative word about VDP, and if I could qualify it further, I might say "in public" -- though, I somewhat take that as a given, since I don't have access to any of the player's private discussions here. And, I can only really answer that by asking a question in return: what is a negative thing that Mike Love could say about VDP that would be justifiable? I'm talking about personal criticism here, not professional.

R&R, I know about you and my wife, and I'm OK with it...... I think.

I'm glad you cut me some slack. After all, I had just returned from the dead.

[Wirestone]

VAN DYKE'S MESSAGE, TRANSLATED

"Certainly, I did walk away from Smile. Yet, I am astonished that Brian has been led into a 'The 50th Reunion Album/Tour'. It's a transparent worship of the God of Mammon.

I admit I left the Smile project. But I can't believe Brian has reunited with the group. It's a money grab, pure and simple.

I comment only to combat any doubt that Mike Love delayed the release of Smile by 40 years purely out of a mislaid jealousy. Smile was a obviously good work.

Mike stopped Smile from being released, because he was jealous that I was writing the lyrics.

Mike's instrument? An insinuation that I promoted drugs that infected the lyrical outcome. That isn't so. He continues this charge to-date, in a pretext of righteous indignation cloaked in a thin veneer of religiosity ("Transcendental Meditation").

Mike has blamed me for drugs coming into Brian's life and music. This is bullsh*t. Also, TM sucks.

Love should study writers he professes to admire: Dickens; Poe; Conan-Doyle; then cite Beaudelaire; Satchmo; Freud, and a legion of similar creative authors whose civility brought beauty to their times, through deftly talented, although drugged doses.

Other famous authors used drugs. They changed the world, just like we could if Mike hadn't interfered.

The outcome of illumination impelled them all — Petty jealousies aside!

They wanted to make art, aside from any concern of who got credit or what mind-altering substances they were ingesting.

This new reunion is beyond mawkishly mercenary! It's an anecdotal height of personal neutrality in an ethical dilemma. Beach Boys may profit from it, minus a few founders.

Again, it's all about the money. And Dennis and Carl are dead. [I have no idea about that anecdotal sentence.]

Yet, revising facts isn't necessary for the progress of profit. I sure wish Brian were here to weigh in. Yet, I'm ready to move on. The windshield is larger than the rear-view mirror. I can't wait to see where their new collaboration will take us all. I wish them the best."

Too bad Brian isn't backing me up on this. Oh well. Good luck, guys.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

"And, I can only really answer that by asking a question in return: what is a negative thing that Mike Love could say about VDP that would be justifiable? I'm talking about personal criticism here, not professional."


Hmmmmm, well, he could say what he has said: that he didn't like the lyrics and didn't like the people feeding Brian drugs. That's basically all he's said. And those are both personal and professional criticisms (if that's the right word), so I think the nature of how these two guys have dealt with the subjects gives us little room to any concrete conclusions.

All I know is, this subject fascinates me from both a pro and anti Mike standpoint, and it really does affect how I treat and communicate with people on a day to day basis.

Your previous reply was very well put, Rocknroll and I highly respect where you're coming from.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Feeling's mutual.


Annnnnnnnnd scene.

[Amy B.]

Van Dyke has lady parts.  He holds a grudge like a woman scorned.

"Lady parts"? Is there something inherently bad or weak about being a woman? Please. I hate this line of argument. Next post, you compare him to a child. Are you equating women with children? Think about what you say, please.

[The infamous Baldwin Organ]

Van Dyke has lady parts.  He holds a grudge like a woman scorned.

"Lady parts"? Is there something inherently bad or weak about being a woman? Please. I hate this line of argument. Next post, you compare him to a child. Are you equating women with children? Think about what you say, please.

+1

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

VAN DYKE'S MESSAGE, TRANSLATED

"Certainly, I did walk away from Smile. Yet, I am astonished that Brian has been led into a 'The 50th Reunion Album/Tour'. It's a transparent worship of the God of Mammon.

I admit I left the Smile project. But I can't believe Brian has reunited with the group. It's a money grab, pure and simple.

I comment only to combat any doubt that Mike Love delayed the release of Smile by 40 years purely out of a mislaid jealousy. Smile was a obviously good work.

Mike stopped Smile from being released, because he was jealous that I was writing the lyrics.

Mike's instrument? An insinuation that I promoted drugs that infected the lyrical outcome. That isn't so. He continues this charge to-date, in a pretext of righteous indignation cloaked in a thin veneer of religiosity ("Transcendental Meditation").

Mike has blamed me for drugs coming into Brian's life and music. This is bullsh*t. Also, TM sucks.

Love should study writers he professes to admire: Dickens; Poe; Conan-Doyle; then cite Beaudelaire; Satchmo; Freud, and a legion of similar creative authors whose civility brought beauty to their times, through deftly talented, although drugged doses.

Other famous authors used drugs. They changed the world, just like we could if Mike hadn't interfered.

The outcome of illumination impelled them all — Petty jealousies aside!

They wanted to make art, aside from any concern of who got credit or what mind-altering substances they were ingesting.

This new reunion is beyond mawkishly mercenary! It's an anecdotal height of personal neutrality in an ethical dilemma. Beach Boys may profit from it, minus a few founders.

Again, it's all about the money. And Dennis and Carl are dead. [I have no idea about that anecdotal sentence.]

Yet, revising facts isn't necessary for the progress of profit. I sure wish Brian were here to weigh in. Yet, I'm ready to move on. The windshield is larger than the rear-view mirror. I can't wait to see where their new collaboration will take us all. I wish them the best."

Too bad Brian isn't backing me up on this. Oh well. Good luck, guys.

I know what he meant, was just voicing my annoyance with the way he talks. I'm not the biggest VDP fan (absolutely NO issue with him personally, though).

[Cam Mott]

I'd say that neither Mike nor VDP are doing themselves proud. They both had issues with SMiLE. If issues mattered they both are guilty. However imo, neither one of them had much if any influence on Brian's desire to bag SMiLE and their issues didn't matter and they are wasting time blaming each other for things that didn't matter.

[Rocky Raccoon]

Van Dyke has lady parts.  He holds a grudge like a woman scorned.

That's an incredibly sexist thing to say. 

[JohnMill]

Wow from reading this thread I deduce Mike Love is a hero and VDP is a villain.

Further proof the Beach Boys universe has more twists and turns than either politics or pro wrestling.

[stack-o-tracks]

Van Dyke has lady parts.  He holds a grudge like a woman scorned.

That's an incredibly sexist thing to say. 

Agreed, wow. That guy sounds like a straight up hater.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I'd say that neither Mike nor VDP are doing themselves proud. They both had issues with SMiLE. If issues mattered they both are guilty. However imo, neither one of them had much if any influence on Brian's desire to bag SMiLE and their issues didn't matter and they are wasting time blaming each other for things that didn't matter.

Oh, most definitely.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

I can understand VDP's anger, though agreed it isn't particuarly pleasant to read him ranting on the net like that.
But...
Mike WAS negative re Smile, both at the time (as has been noted by numerous persons Who Were Actually There) and since (see the general bashing of Smile and VDP in the almost-unforgiveable Mike-backed An American Family film). There seems to be a lot of history revision going on, not just by Mike but fans also ('He appears on the Smile sessions, therefore he must've been supportive of them'). Mike has stated on several occasions that he didn't particuarly like Smile (Endless Harmony: 'I didn't resonate with the music... It didn't make any sense to me'); now that it's being released however, to an inevitable chorus of praise by fans and critics, he's proclaiming that actually he kinda likes Smile after all. I can get why this must p*ss VDP off somewhat, but he should just let the matter drop... Let Mike write his defensive, contradictory sleeve notes and keep a dignified silence. Your place and role in the BB's history is impressive and irremoveable - relax.

[Nicko1234]

I think that behind the pretentious language (and yes it is undeniably pretentious) you can get a real glimpse at his various emotions...

Worried, clearly, that the recent release of Smile and the reunion tour will stop Mike from seeming to be the bad guy in everything.

Jealous that Brian will be working with the band again and not with him.

Bitter, understandably, about how he has been portrayed by Mike and that Mike disliked his work in the first place.

Irrational - Even if you agree that Mike was responsible for Smile not coming out at the time, nobody could say that he has been responsible for it not being released for so long.

Guilty because, in spite of the attempts at self-condonement, he knows that Brian's drug use caused him a huge amount of damage. Sure, that wasn't Van Dyke's fault but there's no way that he can look back on his time taking drugs with Brian with any pride.

And envious that the band are going to make a stackload of cash again for this whereas he was once forced to play on SIP to pay the bills. Ouch.

[Shady]

This could've been a great thread

[hypehat]

Wow from reading this thread I deduce Mike Love is a hero and VDP is a villain.

That's funny, from reading this thread i deduced Ron was an ass.

[The Shift]

I can understand VDP's anger, though agreed it isn't particuarly pleasant to read him ranting on the net like that.

Agreed.  And a tad out of character, despite the oft-stated dislike that exists between the two.

Mike WAS negative re Smile, both at the time (as has been noted by numerous persons Who Were Actually There) and since (see the general bashing of Smile and VDP in the almost-unforgiveable Mike-backed An American Family film).

Agreed, and there's nothing "almost" forgivable about American Family.  From the very start of the film it portrays Brian as some kind of Quasimodo half-wit and Mike as the cool, handsome brains behind the Beach Boys success.  It should never have been made.

There seems to be a lot of history revision going on, not just by Mike but fans also ('He appears on the Smile sessions, therefore he must've been supportive of them'). Mike has stated on several occasions that he didn't particuarly like Smile (Endless Harmony: 'I didn't resonate with the music... It didn't make any sense to me'); now that it's being released however, to an inevitable chorus of praise by fans and critics, he's proclaiming that actually he kinda likes Smile after all.

I think the truth lies somewhere ion the middle. I'm sure Mike does love Wonderful and so-on, but at the same time I'm sure he'd've strangled SMiLE at birth if he hadn't been off around the world busking while Brian was at the coal face.

I'm sure this is what must piss VDP off the most, that history is in grave danger of being re-written by the band reforming and that his substantial contribution to SMiLE and the Beach Boys/Brian WIlson legacy could be overlooked, relegated to little more than a few song credits. We know the total was even greater than the sum of its considerable parts. It must be exasperating in the extreme.  Mike has reclaimed some of his own (deserved) legacy among fans in recent years but maybe there's a danger that their entire history will be looked on with rose tinted glasses. Thankfully we have our historians to keep things on the track.

I can get why this must p*ss VDP off somewhat, but he should just let the matter drop... Let Mike write his defensive, contradictory sleeve notes and keep a dignified silence. Your place and role in the BB's history is impressive and irremoveable - relax.

Goes back to the first part of our posts. Perhaps not to let the matter drop, but to reassert the dignity with which VDP is and always has been associated.

We'll fly his flag for years to come.

[hypehat]

Thank you John, for saying what I wanted to if there was only more coffee