Carl

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Having just endured the 'Problem Child' video on youtube, I've been thinking about Carl, or rather What the hell was going on in his head at this point?
Carl had previously been perhaps the group member most concerned with the band's credibilty: during the post-Pet Sounds/Smile period it was Carl who really worked hard to keep the band's music forward thinking and respectable. As well as creating several spectacular songs - Long Promised Road, Feel Flows, Trader, etc - he was the one behind the hiring of Ricky and Blondie, and he also seems to have been the one who pushed them towards the incredible live shows they performed throughout this period (it also seems as if he was the closet to the equally forward-thinking Jack Riely). It's on record that he wasn't happy with 15 Big Ones, and yet after LA (Light Album)... well, did he just give up?
Did he just resign himself to the group's drop in standards?
Or did he really consider the likes of Crocodile Rock and the aforementioned Problem Child quality pieces of work?
If so, how come his judgement became so bad?
Or did he know it was crap but did it for the money (which surely by now he didn't need)?
Or was it simply loyalty to the group?
Dennis likewise hated what the band was becoming - did his fate act as a warning to Carl to just grin and bear it?
I'd be intersted in hearing of any recording statements by Carl re this period that might give us inside into his thoughts.

[joshferrell]

Having just endured the 'Problem Child' video on youtube, I've been thinking about Carl, or rather What the hell was going on in his head at this point?
Carl had previously been perhaps the group member most concerned with the band's credibilty: during the post-Pet Sounds/Smile period it was Carl who really worked hard to keep the band's music forward thinking and respectable. As well as creating several spectacular songs - Long Promised Road, Feel Flows, Trader, etc - he was the one behind the hiring of Ricky and Blondie, and he also seems to have been the one who pushed them towards the incredible live shows they performed throughout this period (it also seems as if he was the closet to the equally forward-thinking Jack Riely). It's on record that he wasn't happy with 15 Big Ones, and yet after LA (Light Album)... well, did he just give up?
Did he just resign himself to the group's drop in standards?
Or did he really consider the likes of Crocodile Rock and the aforementioned Problem Child quality pieces of work?
If so, how come his judgement became so bad?
Or did he know it was crap but did it for the money (which surely by now he didn't need)? Or was it simply loyalty to the group?
Dennis likewise hated what the band was becoming - did his fate act as a warning to Carl to just grin and bear it?
I'd be intersted in hearing of any recording statements by Carl re this period that might give us inside into his thoughts.

how do you know they didn't need the money? that's an assumption  on your part..maybe they did..remember the 80's/early 90's were a low point for  them as far as record sells go,except for kokomo of course..also doing a song like  that for a movie keeps them in the spotlight..

[filledeplage]

Having just endured the 'Problem Child' video on youtube, I've been thinking about Carl, or rather What the hell was going on in his head at this point?
Carl had previously been perhaps the group member most concerned with the band's credibilty: during the post-Pet Sounds/Smile period it was Carl who really worked hard to keep the band's music forward thinking and respectable. As well as creating several spectacular songs - Long Promised Road, Feel Flows, Trader, etc - he was the one behind the hiring of Ricky and Blondie, and he also seems to have been the one who pushed them towards the incredible live shows they performed throughout this period (it also seems as if he was the closet to the equally forward-thinking Jack Riely). It's on record that he wasn't happy with 15 Big Ones, and yet after LA (Light Album)... well, did he just give up?
Did he just resign himself to the group's drop in standards?
Or did he really consider the likes of Crocodile Rock and the aforementioned Problem Child quality pieces of work?
If so, how come his judgement became so bad?
Or did he know it was crap but did it for the money (which surely by now he didn't need)?
Or was it simply loyalty to the group?
Dennis likewise hated what the band was becoming - did his fate act as a warning to Carl to just grin and bear it?
I'd be intersted in hearing of any recording statements by Carl re this period that might give us inside into his thoughts.

No one can take a trip "through the cranium of another." Wise words from a former professor, explaining that you cannot calculate what another person intends or thinks.  That said, I think it is important to assess the time warp of the creation. Those Feel Flows, Long Promised Road days were turmoil filled times of protest,  rebellion, etc., and the Problem Child, and Crocodile Rock works were more light hearted ones.  Work is work.  Creation done for the purpose of getting the work to another generation is not necessarily a bad thing.  And for all the film, judged poor or otherwise, the name kept getting out there.  

If something regarded as trite, or not intellectual enough, and just plain light hearted, as Kokomo, or Still Crusin' it is still a creative expression, people can either take-it-or-leave-it.  Buy or not. Listen or not.  I don't expect my poor BB brainwashed kids to listen to my generation of music.  But, if they go to see the Stones, I am dee-lighted!  If the Fat Boys/Beach Boys Wipe Out cracks people up while bringing new fans to the fold, it is a beautiful thing.  It opens the door to the profound  work of the 60's and 70's.  But the work generally was orignally inspired by light hearted topics, such as girly-surfing'-cars.  The "heavy" stuff came later.  

Right on, baby!  

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Having just endured the 'Problem Child' video on youtube, I've been thinking about Carl, or rather What the hell was going on in his head at this point?
Carl had previously been perhaps the group member most concerned with the band's credibilty: during the post-Pet Sounds/Smile period it was Carl who really worked hard to keep the band's music forward thinking and respectable. As well as creating several spectacular songs - Long Promised Road, Feel Flows, Trader, etc - he was the one behind the hiring of Ricky and Blondie, and he also seems to have been the one who pushed them towards the incredible live shows they performed throughout this period (it also seems as if he was the closet to the equally forward-thinking Jack Riely). It's on record that he wasn't happy with 15 Big Ones, and yet after LA (Light Album)... well, did he just give up?
Did he just resign himself to the group's drop in standards?
Or did he really consider the likes of Crocodile Rock and the aforementioned Problem Child quality pieces of work?
If so, how come his judgement became so bad?
Or did he know it was crap but did it for the money (which surely by now he didn't need)? Or was it simply loyalty to the group?
Dennis likewise hated what the band was becoming - did his fate act as a warning to Carl to just grin and bear it?
I'd be intersted in hearing of any recording statements by Carl re this period that might give us inside into his thoughts.

how do you know they didn't need the money? that's an assumption  on your part..maybe they did..remember the 80's/early 90's were a low point for  them as far as record sells go,except for kokomo of course..also doing a song like  that for a movie keeps them in the spotlight..

They'd been an outstandingly successful live band for years by the mid-80's. If they were in need of money they must've had the worst accountants on the planet...

[joshferrell]

Having just endured the 'Problem Child' video on youtube, I've been thinking about Carl, or rather What the hell was going on in his head at this point?
Carl had previously been perhaps the group member most concerned with the band's credibilty: during the post-Pet Sounds/Smile period it was Carl who really worked hard to keep the band's music forward thinking and respectable. As well as creating several spectacular songs - Long Promised Road, Feel Flows, Trader, etc - he was the one behind the hiring of Ricky and Blondie, and he also seems to have been the one who pushed them towards the incredible live shows they performed throughout this period (it also seems as if he was the closet to the equally forward-thinking Jack Riely). It's on record that he wasn't happy with 15 Big Ones, and yet after LA (Light Album)... well, did he just give up?
Did he just resign himself to the group's drop in standards?
Or did he really consider the likes of Crocodile Rock and the aforementioned Problem Child quality pieces of work?
If so, how come his judgement became so bad?
Or did he know it was crap but did it for the money (which surely by now he didn't need)? Or was it simply loyalty to the group?
Dennis likewise hated what the band was becoming - did his fate act as a warning to Carl to just grin and bear it?
I'd be intersted in hearing of any recording statements by Carl re this period that might give us inside into his thoughts.

how do you know they didn't need the money? that's an assumption  on your part..maybe they did..remember the 80's/early 90's were a low point for  them as far as record sells go,except for kokomo of course..also doing a song like  that for a movie keeps them in the spotlight..

They'd been an outstandingly successful live band for years by the mid-80's. If they were in need of money they must've had the worst accountants on the planet...

that's true but we don't know what kind of life styles they live,how much their houses/cars are and how much any kind of Drug/alcohol comsumption they may or may not have..so again it's an assumption to say theu have money all the time..if someone owns a 5 million dollar house but only makes 2 million plus the regular expensives of a few thousand dollars for the up keep of the house that is needed on a regular basis then that person would not have enough money and would need more..I'm just saying we don't know the circumstance of their financial situation and "Problem Child" IMO comes off as being something done for money and being kept in the limelight  too..obviously it wasn't meant to be an art statement..

[Runaways]

I think he resigned himself to it.  I remember watching an interview where he was asked the name of the new album and he said "still cruisin", and the look on his face was "yeeeeaaaaah I know"

[the captain]

It's important to differentiate income from wealth. The entertainment world has been littered with people / groups with tremendous incomes who are broke for one reason or another, from lifestyle to bloated businesses to lax or criminal management. Willie Nelson, Leonard Cohen, Antoine Walker, just to name three people whose earning have been tremendous over the years yet came out as being more or less broke at some point.

[BillA]

This is just my guess - The fight for the soul of the Beach Boys was lost in the fall of 1977.  If you read the contemporaneous account that appeared in the Rolling Stone at that time Dennis is quoted as saying the Beach Boys broke up on Al Jardine's birthday.

At the time I figured the fight was about the artistic direction of the band, however, I have since come to believe that drugs played a big role in the resolution of the dispute.  My belief is that his drug use rendered him incapable of holding off the Mike/Al faction of the band. 

The key here is Al.  In his Goldmine interview of 2000 he lambasted Mike for the cheerleaders and blamed him for the burying of the 1967 - 1973 era down the memory hole.  When I read that I thought of the irony since he cast his lot with Mike when the decision to move in that direction was made.  Now I wonder if Al's alliance with Mike was based more on life style than art.

Rock history is replete of band wars between drug users and non (or not so much) drug users.  It happened to the Beatles, the Stones and, more recently, Guns 'n Roses and in each case the druggies lose.

If the Australia performances are any indication, than it seems that Carl had given up. 

Flash forward to 1979 and Carl was able to clean himself up.  I have always liked his contributions to that record.  Even if the words are not his, the songs he wrote seem very personal. In  "Goin' South" and "Full Sail" he sings about getting away from a dark place and "Angel Come Home" could be about his marital troubles.

If you look at the performances at this time he is back in fine voice.   He is absolutely the best thing about the Knebworth show and the differences between what we saw in Australia in 1978 and DC in 1977 is astounding.

Maybe figured that he could not change the direction of the band but would do the very best he could to make sure that whatever the band was they were being the best they could be.  This probably became more ingrained in him following the lukewarm reception to his solo stuff. 

Maybe e made a choice to make a great living doing something that he loved to do (and also the only thing he knew how to  do).  In order to do this he had to make some compromises ("Kokomo", etc.).

Maybe family obligations put him under great stress.  (Was he put in the position of being a surrogate father to his brother's kids?  His rift with Brian and the suit to get rid of Landy?)

Maybe at the end of the day there were more important things to him than recording the next Holland

[AndrewHickey]

Maybe figured that he could not change the direction of the band but would do the very best he could to make sure that whatever the band was they were being the best they could be.  This probably became more ingrained in him following the lukewarm reception to his solo stuff. 

I often think that the song "If I Could Talk With Love" that he recorded around the time he rejoined the band pretty much sums it up, probably intentionally - "If I could talk with Love I'd say/Have it your way, Love, have it your way".

He had no success as a solo act, either commercially, critically or (frankly) artistically. He wasn't going to retire in his mid-thirties. So what do you do? Just go back to the band, forget about art (because Brian was uninvolved and Dennis died) and sing whatever song you've got to do as well as you can, while priding yourself on doing a good job even on substandard material.

Pure conjecture, of course, but it seems reasonable.

[Aegir]

One only need to listen to Carl's solo albums to know if given full creative control, Carl puts out music that has more guitar, but is still super poppy and not very deep.

[Ron]

You're all wrong.  The reason Carl started being 'o.k.' with songs like that was..........




...........














..........












His children.  They were likely at an age where that's the mindset he was in, so he went along with it.  You think about everything and see everything differently depending on whether or not you're a young man in a rock band.... or an aging man with teenage children around the house influencing everything you do.

It's the "Eddie Murphy" factor.  Eddie Murphy at one time was the funniest, most hard core comedian that ever lived.  



And then he had kids.  


Carl's kids were already adults by the time he did 'problem child', but the change had already happened years earlier.  Carl stopped being so concerned about himself and his image when he learned his kids were everything. 

[the captain]

That seems a little presumptuous. For a lot of people, that may well be true. But there are plenty of parents in this world whose kids don't dominate their lives. Some were in the same band as Brian. Some were in the same family.

[Ron]

Yeah, but those people aren't Carl.  Carl was even a bit of a surrogate father to Brian's children, i'm not sure about Dennis'. 

Carl's children, and Brian's children, changed the way he looked at life. 

[feelflows]

I would guess that his kids were a factor, as was his age. 
At a certain point, one begins to feel silly trying to push the edge of the envelope, as fans fail to respond, year after year.  At a certain point, an artist wants some validation, and decides to take himself a little less seriously. 

[BillA]

One only need to listen to Carl's solo albums to know if given full creative control, Carl puts out music that has more guitar, but is still super poppy and not very deep.

I think Carl had full creative control on "Long Promised Road" and "Feel Flows".  "Sail On Sailor" is a Carl dominated record as well.  They were not guitar dominated records.

"Carl Wilson" is the first time that Carl seemed to write songs with a guitar.  All prior efforts sound like they were composed on a keyboard.

I think the deepness of Carl's songs depended on who he was collaborating with since he didn't write lyrics.

[runnersdialzero]

It was totally the money. I know because I had access to his bank account. What a sell out.

[DonnyL]

hmm ... I don't know, even though it isn't mine (or a lot of other people's) cup of tea, Carl dominated the '85 album and it was reasonably successful.  I think it was probably the success of "Kokomo" that set the Beach Boys path.  They seemed to be trying to replicate the success of that song all the way though "Summer in Paradise" (most of their singles were Love/Melcher-written and Melcher-produced).

By the time of the mid-'90s aborted album that became "Stars & Stripes", I think Carl sort of felt like it wouldn't be appropriate for an artistic approach unless Brian was in full control, and for whatever reason, did not believe Brian was up to it (or willing to do it).

[CarCrazyCutie]

Ugh, the Crocodile Rock video I had felt bad for Carl many times before, but my heart just broke for him there. He always gave his all, even at that, but his heart did not seem into it (which we should probably be thankful for someone keeping their sanity). But I have to admit I've gotten much pleasure out of imaging what Dennis would've done (to Mike) had he walked onto that set (or any number of things that happened after he was gone)

This is just my feelings, but I've always thought that when Dennis died, and Brian out of the picture, it was just a losing battle for Carl. It was 3 against 1 (if you count Bruce, and wasn't whoever was speaking for Brian siding with the Mike/Al faction in the late 70s as well? ). He had to be cringing partaking in so much of that shtick & cheesiness that was the '80s & '90s. I've always felt he stayed so there would still be some of that credibility that only a Wilson presence could bring to the band, and so not all of their previous work would be exploited. You gotta hand it to him, that boy certainly had to grow up quick and put up with a lot in his lifetime.

[Alex]

I'm guessing his failing marriage, Dennis' downfall, and all the Brian/Landy drama was a little bit of a higher priority for him than a rock and roll band, which by the 80s may very well have been more like a job to him than anything else  (just speculating, aka blowing hot air out of my ass).

[Wirestone]

Carl is a great puzzle. He also torpedoed the last attempt by Brian to produce a new record for the band (the 95 sessions). The fact that a man who willingly recorded Summer in Paradise turned down the Paley sessions material for being too weak -- well, it boggles the mind.

[Alex]

Carl is a great puzzle. He also torpedoed the last attempt by Brian to produce a new record for the band (the 95 sessions). The fact that a man who willingly recorded Summer in Paradise turned down the Paley sessions material for being too weak -- well, it boggles the mind.

Well, one, there was the cancer. Two, I believe Carl didn't want to work with Don Was, he was hoping Brian would take the lead with no help, and he'd only heard the vocals with Don Was' tracks, and not Brian's and Paley's. Apparently Carl wasn't digging Was' tracks. The Boys then brought in Sean O'Hagan, but as we all know, Brian and O'Hagan didn't gel...and don't forget the Baywatch/Dancing the Night Away session...complicated.

[DonnyL]

Carl is a great puzzle. He also torpedoed the last attempt by Brian to produce a new record for the band (the 95 sessions). The fact that a man who willingly recorded Summer in Paradise turned down the Paley sessions material for being too weak -- well, it boggles the mind.

It makes sense in that "Summer in Paradise" was clearly a Love/Melcher project with no BW involvement ... when Brian became involved w/ new songs, etc., the bar was raised.

but yeh, that has always confused me as well (we're all just guessing here).

Honestly, I am more baffled by "Stars & Stripes" than anything before or after.  That one really didn't make sense, especially with Brian back in the group.  It's the only Beach Boys album I have never owned or listened to all the way through.

[Wirestone]

Carl is a great puzzle. He also torpedoed the last attempt by Brian to produce a new record for the band (the 95 sessions). The fact that a man who willingly recorded Summer in Paradise turned down the Paley sessions material for being too weak -- well, it boggles the mind.

Well, one, there was the cancer. Two, I believe Carl didn't want to work with Don Was, he was hoping Brian would take the lead with no help, and he'd only heard the vocals with Don Was' tracks, and not Brian's and Paley's. Apparently Carl wasn't digging Was' tracks. The Boys then brought in Sean O'Hagan, but as we all know, Brian and O'Hagan didn't gel...and don't forget the Baywatch/Dancing the Night Away session...complicated.

Well, one, he hadn't been diagnosed with cancer at the time, as far as we know. As for your second point, I'm pretty sure some of that is speculation. I don't know Carl's thoughts about the production roles, etc. But what has been officially reported is that he had concerns about the strength of the material.

Carl is a great puzzle. He also torpedoed the last attempt by Brian to produce a new record for the band (the 95 sessions). The fact that a man who willingly recorded Summer in Paradise turned down the Paley sessions material for being too weak -- well, it boggles the mind.

It makes sense in that "Summer in Paradise" was clearly a Love/Melcher project with no BW involvement ... when Brian became involved w/ new songs, etc., the bar was raised.

but yeh, that has always confused me as well (we're all just guessing here).

Honestly, I am more baffled by "Stars & Stripes" than anything before or after.  That one really didn't make sense, especially with Brian back in the group.  It's the only Beach Boys album I have never owned or listened to all the way through.

But didn't the man have any self respect? The damage that SIP did to the group -- no major label would release the thing. And Carl is all over the godawful record. Surely he could see that you could make a good comeback album from a dozen of the better Paley songs (and maybe one or two of his own). Seriously messed up.

I think Stars & Stripes is best understood as a fallback plan. The Was stuff didn't work out immediately, so Mike had the idea to _start_ a comeback with a country album (the Eagles did just that), and follow it up with new material. It was also an easy way to get an already-reunited group recording again without major arguments. But Brian (or his people) decided to move ahead with a solo project, Carl got sick, and that whole plan went out the window.

As I've said, I think Carl's rejection of the material probably had more to do with his personal relationship with Brian (which was pretty severely damaged in the 80s and 90s). There is no valid artistic argument for what he did. Carl's surrender in the late 80s and throughout the 90s is one of the real tragedies of the band.

[Disney Boy (1985)]

Thanks for all the intersting responses - it's coz i freekin' love Carl so much that all this bothered me to begin with. Btw I've not been able to bring myself to watch it - did Carl appear in that Baywatch episode? Please say it aint so.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Carl is a great puzzle. He also torpedoed the last attempt by Brian to produce a new record for the band (the 95 sessions). The fact that a man who willingly recorded Summer in Paradise turned down the Paley sessions material for being too weak -- well, it boggles the mind.

Well, one, there was the cancer. Two, I believe Carl didn't want to work with Don Was, he was hoping Brian would take the lead with no help, and he'd only heard the vocals with Don Was' tracks, and not Brian's and Paley's. Apparently Carl wasn't digging Was' tracks. The Boys then brought in Sean O'Hagan, but as we all know, Brian and O'Hagan didn't gel...and don't forget the Baywatch/Dancing the Night Away session...complicated.

Well, one, he hadn't been diagnosed with cancer at the time, as far as we know.

The official announcement of his cancer diagnosis was April 1997, but a lot of people who attended shows the previous year will tell you there was something very wrong with him then. I saw him spring 1996, and he looked... just wrong. Prior to that, on the January UK visit to promote the Status Quo collaboration, even on TV he looked out of sorts. I think he knew something was wrong long before it being announced.