So Sad About BB's Career After "Smile" Incident :'[

[drbeachboy]

The Beach Boys music grew. Sometimes ahead of The Beatles. Their perceived image by Wenner and others is what killed them. Once the "They're not cool" image kicked in, no one gave them a glance, not even AM radio stations by 1970. Rock and Roll is fickle though, most bands only have a very finite time of popularity.

[bluesno1fann]

I think your argument that Pink Floyd (not a big fan personally) just "got better and better" is silly- there was clearly a decline for them some time in the 80s. Plus I don't think you would find too many Zeppelin fans that consider In through the Out Door to be their finest moment. As for the Beatles, to many fans  their peak was the Rubber Soul/Revolver era, so again, I don't think you can just unequivocally state that the Beatles just "got better and better". This does bring to mind an interesting question though- Are there any groups that anyone can think of who just got better and better?

The Beatles definitely just got better, but that's my opinion. They continued to grow and evolve (like the beach boys) but it stayed commercially successful (unlike the beach boys) arguably because the sound was better (my thoughts) or because they were THE BEATLES.

I think The Doors got better and better in the studio, despite the original poster's comment. LA Woman is an epic album with a lot of hits on it.

Jimi Hendrix is another good example of getting better and better. Cream is another good example of getting better. But if you see a pattern here....these bands/artists didn't really have time to "screw up" like The Beach Boys eventually did. Death plagued them, and I'll probably catch crap for saying it but, if Brian Wilson had died in 1967 and the band had stopped The Beach Boys would probably be universally accepted as being up there with The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, and The Rolling Stones. Because whether us fans like it or not, the public does not place them there....or anywhere near there for that matter.

Sort-of disagree with the Beatles. Let It Be was a horrible last album, and Yellow Submarine was pretty mediocre. Out of their last 3 albums, only Abbey Road is what I'd consider a classic.

Agreed with the Doors. Their two albums after LA Woman and after Jim died are actually really good, very underrated. Highly reccomend you check them out if you haven't already.

[RubberSoul13]

I think your argument that Pink Floyd (not a big fan personally) just "got better and better" is silly- there was clearly a decline for them some time in the 80s. Plus I don't think you would find too many Zeppelin fans that consider In through the Out Door to be their finest moment. As for the Beatles, to many fans  their peak was the Rubber Soul/Revolver era, so again, I don't think you can just unequivocally state that the Beatles just "got better and better". This does bring to mind an interesting question though- Are there any groups that anyone can think of who just got better and better?

The Beatles definitely just got better, but that's my opinion. They continued to grow and evolve (like the beach boys) but it stayed commercially successful (unlike the beach boys) arguably because the sound was better (my thoughts) or because they were THE BEATLES.

I think The Doors got better and better in the studio, despite the original poster's comment. LA Woman is an epic album with a lot of hits on it.

Jimi Hendrix is another good example of getting better and better. Cream is another good example of getting better. But if you see a pattern here....these bands/artists didn't really have time to "screw up" like The Beach Boys eventually did. Death plagued them, and I'll probably catch crap for saying it but, if Brian Wilson had died in 1967 and the band had stopped The Beach Boys would probably be universally accepted as being up there with The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, and The Rolling Stones. Because whether us fans like it or not, the public does not place them there....or anywhere near there for that matter.

Sort-of disagree with the Beatles. Let It Be was a horrible last album, and Yellow Submarine was pretty mediocre. Out of their last 3 albums, only Abbey Road is what I'd consider a classic.

Agreed with the Doors. Their two albums after LA Woman and after Jim died are actually really good, very underrated. Highly reccomend you check them out if you haven't already.

Yeah I agree with you. I really don't even consider Yellow Submarine an album since most of it isn't even them.....and I think of Abbey Road as the last album since it was technically recorded last.

Absolutely agree to The Doors as well....I was just trying to make the point about the impact of death on a band's lasting impact.

[mikeddonn]

If one looks at rock history of the period, there is no reason that Brian would have wanted to make more music in the Smile or Pet Sounds mold. Did the Beatles keep making Revolver and Sgt. Pepper? No. Rock was going in a more stripped down and basic direction ala Credence Clearwater Revival. I' m sure Brian was listening to that trend when  making the later albums. Perhaps others on this vintage thread made the same point, but I didn't read all pages.

I agree KittyKat (I haven't read all the previous pages either).  The Beatles went back to basics just like Brian.  I reckon the only thing that would have changed if SMiLE came out would have been the Beach Boys getting more recognition at the time.  I think subsequent albums would have been the same as they were (except for 20/20!), and I also think Brian would have still withdrawn at some point.  And if the Beatles hadn't split up they would have done well to come up with stuff as good as Surf's Up or Holland.

[lee]

That album was decent actually besides wild honey it's my favorite post smile album . ..None of us fans can honestly say that the post smile material is what made us beach boy fans lol..we all know it's the pre-pet sounds and pet sounds and smile songs that really made us want 2 tap into the beach boys music. and really made us fanatics.

Quite the opposite for me. Friends, 20/20 and Sunflower were the 3 albums that got me hooked on The Beach Boys. It took me about a year or so of listening to post SMiLE material before I began opening up to the pre Pet Sounds material (that did nothing for me at first).

[clinikillz]

Wild Honey, Friends, Sunflower, and Surf's Up are great albums, in my opinion. They may not be as great as Pet Sounds, but they're darn close. For me, their creative downfall began around 1973.

[chrs_mrgn]

I can't tell is OP is trolling or not.
But either way I have to agree in some aspect
and I would have to say that from reading this board for a little while it seems that quite a few of you as well.
Consider how many "what if smile was released" threads there have been...

I don't know if I necessarily get 'sad' but I definitely do wonder 'what if' and I think that in some respects they did get better.
The band got to grow in so many different ways.
The struggles that they faced later in their careers forced them to try new approaches to music.

It's interesting to think about the flip side of popular opinion concerning the fabled smile release.
What if it had been released and been a complete flop.
Would The Beach Boys then have raced back towards what initially made them successful?

That may have led them to start the Mike 'I could have thrown the pigskin over the moon' Love regurgitations
much earlier than they did.

[Lonely Summer]

I am so glad the Beach Boys didn't become Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Cream, the Doors or Jimi Hendrix. That is the classic rock stuff that is regarded as sacred by Rolling Stone, mainstream radio, etc. I never think of those bands as contemporaries of the BB's. Beatles, yes. Stones? Kind of. For me, rock music peaked around 65-67, with the Byrds, Spoonful, Raiders, Kinks, Hollies, Dylan, Monkees. The myth of the BB's decline after Smile has been refuted by now - any group would like to have albums in their catalog as good as Wild Honey, Sunflower, and Holland, and 20/20, Friends and Surf's Up contain some great songs, too.

[bluesno1fann]

I am so glad the Beach Boys didn't become Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Cream, the Doors or Jimi Hendrix. That is the classic rock stuff that is regarded as sacred by Rolling Stone, mainstream radio, etc. I never think of those bands as contemporaries of the BB's. Beatles, yes. Stones? Kind of. For me, rock music peaked around 65-67, with the Byrds, Spoonful, Raiders, Kinks, Hollies, Dylan, Monkees. The myth of the BB's decline after Smile has been refuted by now - any group would like to have albums in their catalog as good as Wild Honey, Sunflower, and Holland, and 20/20, Friends and Surf's Up contain some great songs, too.

Seriously? Pink Floyd?
The band that spawned The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn? The band with the mighty Syd Barrett?
The band that created such excellent songs such as Arnold Layne, See Emily Play, Flaming, Jugband Blues, Bike, etc.
The others, maybe (as much as I like them). But how could you say Pink Floyd?!

Syd and Rick are rolling around in their graves!

[sockittome]

Going back and reading this thread it's clear that we all can agree that there was definitely a creative dropoff.  It just seems that everyone has a different perception of when the Boys lost us. 

You obviously can't go by album sales or commercial success.  No true BBs fan would say that Pet Sounds was bad in any way, yet initial sales and popularity of it were disappointing.  We could speculate indefinitely about whether SMiLE would have continued this pattern or if it would have brought them back on top. 

Smiley Smile was kinda strange, even for those times, and it's not surprising that sales plummeted, but then we get into a period ('67-'71) with some amazing stuff.  But it all seems to have gone unnoticed by the general public.

In my world, the creative dropoff is between Surf's Up and CATP.  It was just never the same after that.

And, of course, your mileage will vary....

[TimeToGetAlone]

There's a couple of premises that I think sum up my position on this topic.

1. Up to the Smile Sessions, The Beach Boys for the most part follow a natural trajectory into more complex, artistic territory.  That is obliterated on their 1967 album releases, but it's a different feeling than a decline the way a band's decline is usually seen.  The best way I can describe it is a "reboot".  From Smiley Smile through Holland, and I'll throw in Love You for good measure as well, this is a period that covers a lot of musical territory and is rather unpredictable. There's little formula to speak of at this point.  As such, it's probably why this period is so attractive to me.  These albums may not outduel a masterwork like Pet Sounds, but it's at the very least as viable as the days of the early hits.

2. With rare exception, The Beach Boys are not a band that churns out consistent whole works.  That's another part of what makes them so compelling.  You can't be basing the Beach Boys' output based on how successful album A stacks up against album B.  When it comes to the Beach Boys' catalogue, you find gems in strange places.  There are so many great odds and ends from the late 60's, for instance.  And while some albums might fall a few songs short of perfection, this still leaves plenty of great tracks.  With an album every year up to 1973, that becomes a lot of material.

3. The late 60's/early 70's period WAS the one that got me into the band.  Without sifting through a band's discography, it's hard to shake a group's image.  I happened to stumble upon a pair of Carl Wilson-sung tracks, Darlin' and I Can Hear Music, that really captured my attention and made me want to learn more about this back catalogue that I had never examined before.  It is only through this that I was able to discover such earlier works as Today! and give Pet Sounds the time and attention it deserves.

[Moon Dawg]

  Funny thing is that even though some perceived The Beach Boys as "losers" from Smiley Smile through Holland, this is the era that so many gravitated toward after the GV box came out in 1993. The group's alternative period, if you will. Some committed Indie Rock friends were amazed at discovering this era, a period the band itself edited out of existence in the 80's.

[bluesno1fann]

The Beach Boys music grew. Sometimes ahead of The Beatles. Their perceived image by Wenner and others is what killed them. Once the "They're not cool" image kicked in, no one gave them a glance, not even AM radio stations by 1970. Rock and Roll is fickle though, most bands only have a very finite time of popularity.

Well, not unless the band's name is The Beatles 

[Lonely Summer]

I am so glad the Beach Boys didn't become Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Cream, the Doors or Jimi Hendrix. That is the classic rock stuff that is regarded as sacred by Rolling Stone, mainstream radio, etc. I never think of those bands as contemporaries of the BB's. Beatles, yes. Stones? Kind of. For me, rock music peaked around 65-67, with the Byrds, Spoonful, Raiders, Kinks, Hollies, Dylan, Monkees. The myth of the BB's decline after Smile has been refuted by now - any group would like to have albums in their catalog as good as Wild Honey, Sunflower, and Holland, and 20/20, Friends and Surf's Up contain some great songs, too.

Seriously? Pink Floyd?
The band that spawned The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn? The band with the mighty Syd Barrett?
The band that created such excellent songs such as Arnold Layne, See Emily Play, Flaming, Jugband Blues, Bike, etc.
The others, maybe (as much as I like them). But how could you say Pink Floyd?!

Syd and Rick are rolling around in their graves!

Turn to any classic rock station for an hour or two, and I guarantee you will hear some Floyd - definitely some Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here or The Wall. Those stations don't even know about cool songs like See Emily Play or Arnold Layne.

[bluesno1fann]

I am so glad the Beach Boys didn't become Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Cream, the Doors or Jimi Hendrix. That is the classic rock stuff that is regarded as sacred by Rolling Stone, mainstream radio, etc. I never think of those bands as contemporaries of the BB's. Beatles, yes. Stones? Kind of. For me, rock music peaked around 65-67, with the Byrds, Spoonful, Raiders, Kinks, Hollies, Dylan, Monkees. The myth of the BB's decline after Smile has been refuted by now - any group would like to have albums in their catalog as good as Wild Honey, Sunflower, and Holland, and 20/20, Friends and Surf's Up contain some great songs, too.

Seriously? Pink Floyd?
The band that spawned The Piper At The Gates Of Dawn? The band with the mighty Syd Barrett?
The band that created such excellent songs such as Arnold Layne, See Emily Play, Flaming, Jugband Blues, Bike, etc.
The others, maybe (as much as I like them). But how could you say Pink Floyd?!

Syd and Rick are rolling around in their graves!

Turn to any classic rock station for an hour or two, and I guarantee you will hear some Floyd - definitely some Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here or The Wall. Those stations don't even know about cool songs like See Emily Play or Arnold Layne.

Judging from the Classic Rock station I used to listen to (Got sick to death of it because it's the same bloody songs which are on, and that's listening to the same songs for most of your life! Also, there are no other in town), they rarely played Pink Floyd. And when they did, it was always either Comfortably Numb or Another Brick In The Wall, Part II. Nothing else.

Though on the Modern Rock station I listen to which occasionally play the classics, they also play Run Like Hell, The Happiest Days Of Our Lives (which fades into ABITWPII), and once which my Dad heard, Interstellar Overdrive.

[Ram4]

Turn to any classic rock station for an hour or two, and I guarantee you will hear some Floyd - definitely some Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here or The Wall. Those stations don't even know about cool songs like See Emily Play or Arnold Layne.

That's because the MAJORITY of fans don't prefer those Floyd songs over the non-Syd Barrett classics.  A lot of Americans can't stand Syd with his British accent singing.  Those singles didn't chart over here for that reason (they did have national promotion - the US just didn't care for those songs).  They wanted their Brits to sound like Americans (with a few exceptions).   They want Meddle, Dark Side, Wish You Were Here, Animals.  I love the first Floyd album myself, just like I love Beach Boys post Smile.  But I am not blind when it comes to reality. 

As for those classic rock radio stations - 100% clueless.  I agree with you all the way Lonely Summer.  Why they even have a DJ at this point is beyond me.  They could be enlightening so many people by playing album cuts from all those same classic rock bands, and turning new fans onto bands they normally figured only had a hit or two and nothing else. 

The Beach Boys glory years will always be the Brian Wilson era up til Smile.  Yes, he was involved after that, but not at his peak.  They are in the Rock Hall Of Fame because of the early era, they are beloved around the world because of that era.  Simple as that.  Average fans do not care about most material after that.  And don't give me "I know people that like I Can Hear Music."  Most average fans have no clue other than the hits.  If people can't understand that, I don't know what to say.  As for me, I love all of it, and I wish the average fans were exposed to Sunflower or Wild Honey or Carl and The Passions and gave it a chance.  But they are not exposed, and to them it's ALL 1962-1966.  Do It Again is not considered a big hit over here.  Sail On Sailor people like.  The problem is half of them don't know it's the Beach Boys.

[Lonely Summer]

Turn to any classic rock station for an hour or two, and I guarantee you will hear some Floyd - definitely some Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here or The Wall. Those stations don't even know about cool songs like See Emily Play or Arnold Layne.

That's because the MAJORITY of fans don't prefer those Floyd songs over the non-Syd Barrett classics.  A lot of Americans can't stand Syd with his British accent singing.  Those singles didn't chart over here for that reason (they did have national promotion - the US just didn't care for those songs).  They wanted their Brits to sound like Americans (with a few exceptions).   They want Meddle, Dark Side, Wish You Were Here, Animals.  I love the first Floyd album myself, just like I love Beach Boys post Smile.  But I am not blind when it comes to reality. 

As for those classic rock radio stations - 100% clueless.  I agree with you all the way Lonely Summer.  Why they even have a DJ at this point is beyond me.  They could be enlightening so many people by playing album cuts from all those same classic rock bands, and turning new fans onto bands they normally figured only had a hit or two and nothing else. 

The Beach Boys glory years will always be the Brian Wilson era up til Smile.  Yes, he was involved after that, but not at his peak.  They are in the Rock Hall Of Fame because of the early era, they are beloved around the world because of that era.  Simple as that.  Average fans do not care about most material after that.  And don't give me "I know people that like I Can Hear Music."  Most average fans have no clue other than the hits.  If people can't understand that, I don't know what to say.  As for me, I love all of it, and I wish the average fans were exposed to Sunflower or Wild Honey or Carl and The Passions and gave it a chance.  But they are not exposed, and to them it's ALL 1962-1966.  Do It Again is not considered a big hit over here.  Sail On Sailor people like.  The problem is half of them don't know it's the Beach Boys.

When I told a coworker that SOS was the Beach Boys, her response was "why doesn't it sound like their other songs?" All of this ws preceded by comments about the Beach Boys music sounding "too happy".

[TimeToGetAlone]

Turn to any classic rock station for an hour or two, and I guarantee you will hear some Floyd - definitely some Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here or The Wall. Those stations don't even know about cool songs like See Emily Play or Arnold Layne.

That's because the MAJORITY of fans don't prefer those Floyd songs over the non-Syd Barrett classics.  A lot of Americans can't stand Syd with his British accent singing.  Those singles didn't chart over here for that reason (they did have national promotion - the US just didn't care for those songs).  They wanted their Brits to sound like Americans (with a few exceptions).   They want Meddle, Dark Side, Wish You Were Here, Animals.  I love the first Floyd album myself, just like I love Beach Boys post Smile.  But I am not blind when it comes to reality.  

As for those classic rock radio stations - 100% clueless.  I agree with you all the way Lonely Summer.  Why they even have a DJ at this point is beyond me.  They could be enlightening so many people by playing album cuts from all those same classic rock bands, and turning new fans onto bands they normally figured only had a hit or two and nothing else.  

The Beach Boys glory years will always be the Brian Wilson era up til Smile.  Yes, he was involved after that, but not at his peak.  They are in the Rock Hall Of Fame because of the early era, they are beloved around the world because of that era.  Simple as that.  Average fans do not care about most material after that.  And don't give me "I know people that like I Can Hear Music."  Most average fans have no clue other than the hits.  If people can't understand that, I don't know what to say.  As for me, I love all of it, and I wish the average fans were exposed to Sunflower or Wild Honey or Carl and The Passions and gave it a chance.  But they are not exposed, and to them it's ALL 1962-1966.  Do It Again is not considered a big hit over here.  Sail On Sailor people like.  The problem is half of them don't know it's the Beach Boys.

I would go as far to say that when it comes to the average person, you can only go up to Good Vibrations.  Smile is esoteric enough when it comes to the casual fan that it can't really be lumped into their days of commercial success.