Who hated SMiLE?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

As mentioned before, I don't think that Mike was opposed to SMiLE either, not only did he sing those parts pretty damn well, but on the box set he contributed quite a lengthy essay about the project, now I remember from High School, writing essays about things you hate is not something that you tend to do.

Boy, it sounds like you had a much more happy high school experience than I had.

IF Mike did say the DFWTF thing, I think it's possible that he was taken out of context over the course of time, not talking about how Brian was writing the songs, but how he was recording them, it must be frustrating for anyone to go into a studio, record vocals for a 30 second segment and then go, only to watch the man putting it together slowly begin to lose focus.

Just my opinions of course

It should be noted too that the DFWTF quote (which seems to be never actually spoken by Mike) is historically attributed to his reactions to Pet Sounds not Smile.

[GuyOnTheBeach]

As mentioned before, I don't think that Mike was opposed to SMiLE either, not only did he sing those parts pretty damn well, but on the box set he contributed quite a lengthy essay about the project, now I remember from High School, writing essays about things you hate is not something that you tend to do.

Boy, it sounds like you had a much more happy high school experience than I had.

IF Mike did say the DFWTF thing, I think it's possible that he was taken out of context over the course of time, not talking about how Brian was writing the songs, but how he was recording them, it must be frustrating for anyone to go into a studio, record vocals for a 30 second segment and then go, only to watch the man putting it together slowly begin to lose focus.

Just my opinions of course

It should be noted too that the DFWTF quote (which seems to be never actually spoken by Mike) is historically attributed to his reactions to Pet Sounds not Smile.

It was interesting, just not in an educational sense, I learned how to swear and how to roll the perfect cigarette...

And RE the DFWTF quote, I do vaugley recall someone saying it was from PS and not SMiLE, truth is, when it comes to Beach Boys history, I never know quite what to believe anymore!  

[Cabinessenceking]

From all the information i've gathered, I'm pretty sure Mike was pretty much just opposed to the lyrics. I don't think the music was what bothered him. I mean he didn't seem to have a problem with Smiley Smile. The music on the SMiLE tapes is way more accessible than on that of Smiley Smile. So I don't think it was the music people had trouble with, whoever it was. It was the lyrics. And a lot of the actual reason Brian quit it was because of other things than opposition.

very true. It is no wonder that they didnt re-record Surf's Up or Cabinessence for Smiley Smile. The ones that remained were mostly by Brian alone, and wind chimes and vega-tables were not really too psychedelic, vegetables was after all inspired by Brians period of fit-living thinking when he opened the Radient Radish and all. Mike liked all that. They all (apart from Bruce) did quite some drugs in those days, as is evident from the Our Prayer sessions and many other vocal takes from TSS and Smiley Smile.

Perhaps this is why Bruce hardly appears on Smile???

[Andrew G. Doe]

I did some further searching on the topic and there was some dialogue in the movie An American Family where they're working on the SMiLE sessions and Bruce says something like "Gee, Brian I'm not sure I even know what were singing about." and Carl something along the lines of "It's just all bits and pieces." not sure how accurate this would be but perhaps it's further insight into how the band felt about the song's subject matter.

As a reliable source of historically accurate dialog, An American Family is pretty much on a par with Brian's pseudobiography.  

[rab2591]

I do believe it was Tony Asher that said he heard Mike say the DFWTF quote.

Who knows if it's true, but I don't know why Asher would lie about it.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

very true. It is no wonder that they didnt re-record Surf's Up or Cabinessence for Smiley Smile. The ones that remained were mostly by Brian alone, and wind chimes and vega-tables were not really too psychedelic, vegetables was after all inspired by Brians period of fit-living thinking when he opened the Radient Radish and all. Mike liked all that. They all (apart from Bruce) did quite some drugs in those days, as is evident from the Our Prayer sessions and many other vocal takes from TSS and Smiley Smile.

Perhaps this is why Bruce hardly appears on Smile???

Was Mike really against psychedelic? If so, what did he think of Smiley Smile which is an extremely weird sounding album (maybe our definitions of psychedelic are different). While it is clear that Mike opposed the lyrics, I also think he didn't quite get what the production race was really all about. He knew what sounded like a hit, and Smile lyrics or no lyrics didn't sound like one. I think it was more than just the words he had a problem with. Mike probably liked songs like Heroes and Villains and Wonderful because they sound, at least superficially, like they are bit more mainstream oriented and not filled with odd production tricks.

[bossaroo]

Mike disliked SMiLE but not as much as Lennon despised Silver Hammer  

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I do believe it was Tony Asher that said he heard Mike say the DFWTF quote.

Who knows if it's true, but I don't know why Asher would lie about it.

Where did he say that?

He did say that he heard the guys saying, "Why do we have to sing these stupid lyrics" or words to that effect.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I did some further searching on the topic and there was some dialogue in the movie An American Family where they're working on the SMiLE sessions and Bruce says something like "Gee, Brian I'm not sure I even know what were singing about." and Carl something along the lines of "It's just all bits and pieces." not sure how accurate this would be but perhaps it's further insight into how the band felt about the song's subject matter.

The "just pieces" argument (which is ridiculous in my opinion) may have also been uttered by Carl (I don't know) but was certainly said by both Mike and Bruce whose historical perpsective is greatly reflected in that ridiculous docucomedy.

[The Shift]

I did some further searching on the topic and there was some dialogue in the movie An American Family where they're working on the SMiLE sessions and Bruce says something like "Gee, Brian I'm not sure I even know what were singing about." and Carl something along the lines of "It's just all bits and pieces." not sure how accurate this would be but perhaps it's further insight into how the band felt about the song's subject matter.

The "just pieces" argument (which is ridiculous in my opinion) may have also been uttered by Carl (I don't know) but was certainly said by both Mike and Bruce whose historical perpsective is greatly reflected in that ridiculous docucomedy.

Don' knock dat documenslurry – without it, we wouldn't have known that Brian spent seven years asleep in his sandbox eating a birthday cake made of hash and writing Do It Again, which incidentally was Number One in the UK, don'cha know.

[BananaLouie]

As a reliable source of historically accurate dialog, An American Family is pretty much on a par with Brian's pseudobiography.  

I remember watching this mini series back in 2000 and although interesting to watch (especially Kevin Dunn who I thought played Murry very well) I agree that it lacks credibility not unlike The Wouldn't It Be Nice biography. It was kind of fun to watch, the guy that played Brian reminded me of Jeff Daniels in Dumb and Dumber.  

[Alan Smith]

Tom Nolan's RS article relays David Anderle felt Mike was responsible for "the collapse" (of the initial Brother records initative and David A's involvement) because Mike wanted David A's help to go in one direction while David Anderle was taking things in a different direction (the one that allowed Brian the freedom to create music ala Smile; "Brian played the Beach Boys his new (Smile) music and it scared the sh*t out of them").  

David really holds Mike Love responsible for the collapse.  Mike wanted the bread, "and don't f*** with the formula".

According to Tom Nolan's article.

[rab2591]

I do believe it was Tony Asher that said he heard Mike say the DFWTF quote.

Who knows if it's true, but I don't know why Asher would lie about it.

Where did he say that?

He did say that he heard the guys saying, "Why do we have to sing these stupid lyrics" or words to that effect.

I could definitely be wrong, but for some reason I think it was on the 'Songwriter' DVD. Though since he is not on the DVD someone must have been speaking for him. If I watch it again soon I'll definitely look out for it.

Though I do believe that's why it's assumed, above, that the quote came from the Pet Sounds era...

[Cam Mott]

So are we concluding or confirming that Brian's perception that Mike hated SMiLE is incorrect? 

As mentioned above, he clearly says that Mike is one of the reasons he shelved the project in the Beautiful Dreamer documentary.  Mike may have participated in the recording sessions, but what about the spats with VDP?  Those didn't happen, then?  I don't see it as that black and white myself.  It wasn't just Mike...or just Brian as the issue..it was an clusterball of crap that Brian got from many directions (including himself).  But to now rule out Mike Love completely...I don't know about all that.

What about the spats between Brian and Van Dyke. Which one hated SMiLE?

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I also thought the DFWTF was from Pet Sounds.

Now if Mike did say it, I think I can actually sympathise with him. If you look at the albums leading up to Pet Sounds, Mike has more and more credits as a lyricist. I think that Mike took it personally that Brian was using other lyricists. The lyrics on Today are every bit as good as Pet Sounds IMO. Good Vibrations was poetic, yet commercial at the same time. Wild Honey was very good lyrically (mostly Mike) but by then it was too late (in the US).

Who's to say that if Brian told Mike what he was trying to do with SMiLE lyrics that Mike couldn't have come up with an Americana theme that was very creative, yet commercial too? It's possible that after Today, Mike didn't want to write those kinds of lyrics anymore. But then explain GV.

[BananaLouie]

It's possible that after Today, Mike didn't want to write those kinds of lyrics anymore. But then explain GV.

I think it's entirely possible Mike may not have wanted to continue with the usual girls, cars and surfing themes. Mike did write the lyrics to I'm Waiting For The Day which I think are as good as any of Tony Asher's lyrics and the lyrics on Good Vibrations are quintessential Mike with the whole boy/girl perspective. Having said that I actually believe Mike was very capable of progressing as a lyricist and could've plunged into surreal Americana type stuff though probably no where near as good as Mr. Parks but he did after all go on to write Big Sur.

[oldsurferdude]

I recall reading years ago and just recently that Myke had made another comment to Brian about PS-something along the lines of "...who's gonna hear this sh*t, the ears of a dog?" Lyrics aside, was he also paranoid about Brian's utilization of outside musicians as well? He had an ego the size of which dwarfs the universe but it appears to have been fragile. Was his face gotten into about riding Brian about PS and S? Did Brian ever have the opportunity to go to him and tell him his lyrics sucked? Would enjoy hearing that Brian had the opportunity to use what he said  on Party just before "Devoted To You"-"If you don't like it then shut up and go home".

[Cam Mott]

What if Brian didn't particularly want historic lyrics for SMiLE but only wanted high brow lyrics he could contrast and undercut with his comic touchs musically? A contrast sort of like argument as comedy. What if the high brow lyrics weren't working for him, just like he said at the time, and he dumped almost all of the high brow lyrics but stuck with comedic musical touchs? Just an observation.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Mike did write the lyrics to I'm Waiting For The Day...

Hardly. It's been reported that the lyrical difference between the originally copyrighted version (in 1964) credited only to Brian and the Pet Sounds track is less than ten words.

[MBE]

Why the obsession with spelling it SMiLE? Never understood that one I know it's the art but...........anyhow I loved it

[filledeplage]

Why the obsession with spelling it SMiLE? Never understood that one I know it's the art but...........anyhow I loved it

e.e.cummings' poetry and orthography were a huge influence in that time, and, I had always suspected that he influenced the SMiLE lyrics.  We covered a lot of his work in high school, and I was a sophomore when Smiley came out, so the stream-of-consciousness and unconventionally put together orthography and graphics, amidst the Warhol and Peter Max stuff did not strike people as out of synch.  Not your typical BB stuff, which got them off the ground, but, the influence was definitely there.  It is likely, that Brian and some of the other BB's may have even read his poetry in English Composition in college. 

There is an interview on a website called "splicetoday" with Van Dyke Parks, which enumerates some of his influences, and e.e.cummings is among them. 

[Magic Transistor Radio]

It's possible that after Today, Mike didn't want to write those kinds of lyrics anymore. But then explain GV.

I think it's entirely possible Mike may not have wanted to continue with the usual girls, cars and surfing themes. Mike did write the lyrics to I'm Waiting For The Day which I think are as good as any of Tony Asher's lyrics and the lyrics on Good Vibrations are quintessential Mike with the whole boy/girl perspective. Having said that I actually believe Mike was very capable of progressing as a lyricist and could've plunged into surreal Americana type stuff though probably no where near as good as Mr. Parks but he did after all go on to write Big Sur.

I meant he didn't want to write Today style lyrics and convinced Brian to let him write lyrics like before, thus we get Summer Days/Nights. Later we get Do It Again. At the same time, Mike did well on GV and WH lp.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I recall reading years ago and just recently that Myke had made another comment to Brian about PS-something along the lines of "...who's gonna hear this sh*t, the ears of a dog?" Lyrics aside, was he also paranoid about Brian's utilization of outside musicians as well? He had an ego the size of which dwarfs the universe but it appears to have been fragile. Was his face gotten into about riding Brian about PS and S? Did Brian ever have the opportunity to go to him and tell him his lyrics sucked? Would enjoy hearing that Brian had the opportunity to use what he said  on Party just before "Devoted To You"-"If you don't like it then shut up and go home".

First off, Mike said that in a joking way that Brian must have the ears of a dog because he hears everything. Secondly, why would Mike care if there are studio musicians? He didn't play anything anyway!

[Paul J B]

This argument will likely go on forever.

How about judging people by what they DO instead of SAY, or in this case may have said. Clear the bias and look at history. Mike worked hard and sang on all of the early sixties hit songs and albums. He worked hard on Pet Sounds and Smile. Then he worked hard on the late sixties songs and albums.  He sang about all kinds of crazy things and subjects that had nothing to do with FORMULA or surfing. Songs like Do it Again or It's OK came after years of albums that Mike worked hard on with the other Beach Boys, but that flopped in sales.

I've been annoyed by Mike plenty over my lifetime as a fan, but this blaming him for Smile's collapse or making him the ONLY reason the Beach Boys became a traveling jukebox should stop.

Mike had such a problem with Parks' lyrics that the whole project collapsed and then Brian was never the same and......... but wait, there was Mike in Brian's house recording more formula lyrics like those on Smiley.

[cablegeddon]

Tony Asher said that during the recording of Pet Sounds, as soon as BW was in another room, the entire band would bash the songs saying things like "why are we even singing these stupid songs".

I imagine that the same thing happened during the smile sessions. It was probably worse at that point. Seems like they were all full of themselves